Pak High Commission Staffer held for Espionage

[salarsikander]

Is the number of Pakistanis who have a favorable opinion of musharraf more than the number of Pakistanis who have an unfavorable opinion of him?

I am not sure no such poll was ever conducted

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I'm not talking about you per se. A Pakistani born and brought up in a western country cannot be compared to a Pakistani born and brought up in Pakistan at all, in terms of culture or mindset.

I've spent a number of years living in the U.S. I've made a few trips to the UK. I know a lot of Pakistanis personally. I'm distantly related to some. You're one of those south Asians who is basically what we call foreign born confused Desi. As in you don't fit in with whites. You don't fit in with your home country's native inhabitants. You don't fit in with what we call a fresh of the boat Desi. Basically I know your type, I've lived with your type, and you like many others in the same boat as you, suffer from what is known as an cultural identity crisis, stemming from confusion about your roots.

https://defence.pk/threads/aib-when-india-spoke-to-pakistan.458667/page-2#post-8865118

Check out this thread and the video there. You'll understand what I'm talking about.



Is the number of Pakistanis who have a favorable opinion of musharraf more than the number of Pakistanis who have an unfavorable opinion of him?

Not really. I have been to Pakistan over 20 times and fit in really well. I'm well integrated into the UK born Pakistani community and to the one back home as well. My roots and culture is Pakistani. As far as non-Pakistanis are concerned, I feel the most closest to the Muslims from the Middle East and North Africa. Language aside, we have a lot in common. You may have some connections to Pakistan but the VAST majority of indians don't. That fact is neither here nor there as there are many more Pakistanis that have a racial connection to Iran and Afghanistan. Yet that doesn't make Pakistanis Iranian/Persian or Afghan.

FYI I never once said I was white or fit in with them.

With regards to Musharraf, one thing he did do that no other leader of Pakistan has done was to greatly improve the living conditions of the poor. He also improved their rights.

 

[ManavKalia]

I am not sure no such poll was ever conducted

Do you see more praise of him or more criticism of him in this forum?

Not really. I have been to Pakistan over 20 times and fit in really well. I'm well integrated into the UK born Pakistani community and to the one back home as well. My roots and culture is Pakistani. As far as non-Pakistanis are concerned, I feel the most closest to the Muslims from the Middle East and North Africa. Language aside, we have a lot in common. You may have some connections to Pakistan but the VAST majority of indians don't. That fact is neither here nor there as there are many more Pakistanis that have a racial connection to Iran and Afghanistan. Yet that doesn't make Pakistanis Iranian/Persian or Afghan.

FYI I never once said I was white or fit in with them.

With regards to Musharraf, one thing he did do that no other leader of Pakistan has done was to greatly improve the living conditions of the poor. He also improved their rights.

Ok lemme put it another way. Are you aware of the top ten searched items on Google in Pakistan?

Are you aware of how many Indian items are in the top ten?

 

[salarsikander]

Do you see more praise of him or more criticism of him in this forum?

I see most Think tanks and intellectuals actually supporting him. But then again PDF itself cannot be taken as source for such polls

 

[ManavKalia]

I see most Think tanks and intellectuals actually supporting him. But then again PDF itself cannot be taken as source for such polls

I'm just asking you a simple question. Would most people here or in Pakistan, praise him or criticise him. Being a Pakistani and being ruled by him for a decade, it's just not possible that you don't know the answer to this. The very fact that you're having such a hard time coming up with an answer that should be very easy to come to with, only indicates that you know the answer but are having trouble admitting it.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Do you see more praise of him or more criticism of him in this forum?



Ok lemme put it another way. Are you aware of the top ten searched items on Google in Pakistan?

Are you aware of how many Indian items are in the top ten?

I understand your point. But what you said above DOES NOT make you indian or part of indian culture.

If I started googling all things Jewish and Israeli it does not mean make me Israeli or Jewish.

To share a common culture you need to share something far deeper and sacred than your film tastes or hobbies. For Pakistanis that is Islam as we are a Muslim nation. For indians it would be something else.

You may have distant connections to Pakistan but the VAST majority of indians don't. You cannot base everything on that.

At the end of the day, indians have their own racial heritage, culture, beliefs and way of life and us Pakistanis have ours which is different to your's.

I'm just asking you a simple question. Would most people here or in Pakistan, praise him or criticise him. Being a Pakistani and being ruled by him for a decade, it's just not possible that you don't know the answer to this. The very fact that you're having such a hard time coming up with an answer that should be very easy to come to with, only indicates that you know the answer but are having trouble admitting it.

The poor in Pakistan liked him as he did a lot to improve their rights, standard of living and job prospects. The elite did not like him as he was a maverick and wouldn't tow the line.

 

[ManavKalia]

I understand your point. But what you said above DOES NOT make you indian or part of indian culture.

If I started googling all things Jewish and Israeli it does not mean make me Israeli or Jewish.

To share a common culture you need to share something far deeper and sacred than your film tastes or hobbies. For Pakistanis that is Islam as we are a Muslim nation. For indians it would be something else.

You may have distant connections to Pakistan but the VAST majority of indians don't. You cannot base everything on that.

At the end of the day, indians have their own racial heritage, culture, beliefs and way of life and us Pakistanis have ours which is different to your's.




The poor in Pakistan liked him as he did a lot to improve their rights, standard of living and job prospects. The elite did not like him as he was a maverick and wouldn't tow the line.

I don't claim to be an expert on Pakistan or Pakistanis. I just happen to know a lot of them. And I'm basing my opinion from that.

Be it the language they speak. Comes from India. The religion they practice. Heavily influenced by India. The movies they watch. Primarily Indian. The non Pakistani celebrities they idolize. Mostly Indian. The internet searches they do. Lot of it Indian. I have just given a few essential components of culture.

Like the balance of trade, which is lopsided in favor of India, the curiosity and interest is also lopsided that way. That is Pakistani people are much more curious and interested in India than Indians are in Pakistan. Not to say Indians aren't curious about Pakistan but comparatively speaking.

This is also borne out by my personal interactions with Pakistanis. And I understand. See traditionally Pakistan has been a very liberal culture. And due to certain policy decisions, a certain amount of radicalization has taken place. Which has led to a cultural identity crisis for some people.

They don't know whether they belong to south Asia, Indian subcontinent, West Asia, East Asia, the mid East, or Arabia. And there is a lot of induced indoctrination by vested interests. For religious purposes, it makes sense to disassociate from Hinduism and hence South Asia. But no one can deny, that all south Asian Muslims have to have some Hindu ancestry, simply because Hinduism is a before Christ religion, and Islam an after Christ one. Hinduism predating Islam by at least one or two millennia.

So there are a lot of factors in play. There's a religious identity. There's a national identity. There's a cultural identity. There's a regional identity. With whatever I know of Pakistanis, they will not be able to break from their Indian roots. Come what may. Because a lot of people have links to the region that even predate religion in its current forms.

 

[salarsikander]

I'm just asking you a simple question. Would most people here or in Pakistan, praise him or criticise him. Being a Pakistani and being ruled by him for a decade, it's just not possible that you don't know the answer to this. The very fact that you're having such a hard time coming up with an answer that should be very easy to come to with, only indicates that you know the answer but are having trouble admitting it.

I am afraid that is YOUR Opinion I have already stated above. He has a considerable fan following

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I don't claim to be an expert on Pakistan or Pakistanis. I just happen to know a lot of them. And I'm basing my opinion from that.

Be it the language they speak. Comes from India. The religion they practice. Heavily influenced by India. The movies they watch. Primarily Indian. The non Pakistani celebrities they idolize. Mostly Indian. The internet searches they do. Lot of it Indian. I have just given a few essential components of culture.

Like the balance of trade, which is lopsided in favor of India, the curiosity and interest is also lopsided that way. That is Pakistani people are much more curious and interested in India than Indians are in Pakistan. Not to say Indians aren't curious about Pakistan but comparatively speaking.

This is also borne out by my personal interactions with Pakistanis. And I understand. See traditionally Pakistan has been a very liberal culture. And due to certain policy decisions, a certain amount of radicalization has taken place. Which has led to a cultural identity crisis for some people.

They don't know whether they belong to south Asia, Indian subcontinent, West Asia, East Asia, the mid East, or Arabia. And there is a lot of induced indoctrination by vested interests. For religious purposes, it makes sense to disassociate from Hinduism and hence South Asia. But no one can deny, that all south Asian Muslims have to have some Hindu ancestry, simply because Hinduism is a before Christ religion, and Islam an after Christ one. Hinduism predating Islam by at least one or two millennia.

So there are a lot of factors in play. There's a religious identity. There's a national identity. There's a cultural identity. There's a regional identity. With whatever I know of Pakistanis, they will not be able to break from their Indian roots. Come what may. Because a lot of people have links to the region that even predate religion in its current forms.

Islam is not influenced at all by indian culture. It has it's origins in the Middle East, most notably in modern day Saudi Arabia. It is an Abrahamic faith that the is heavily influenced by Judaism and to a lesser extent, Christianity.

Everything else you have said is conjecture. Some Pakistanis maybe interested in indian culture but many are not. There are Pakistanis that are heavily influenced and have a deep curiosity of Islamic/Middle Eastern culture. That doesn't make us Middle Eastern either. These are just opinions but not tangible facts.

The people who comprise modern day Pakistan have very little if anything in common with modern day indians. Especially in terms of physical appearance and race.

The term "south asia" is highly generic and inaccurate. The British used that term because they could not tell the difference between any sort of people with darker skin. So they all incorrectly lumped as together. Even now, Pakistan is moving away from South Asia permanently and establishing stronger and growing links with China and the nations West of us of whom we share a lot in common with. This will continue & strengthen. Our past connections with South Asia will eventually disappear and be forgotten in the coming years/decades.

 

[ManavKalia]

I am afraid that is YOUR Opinion I have already stated above. He has a considerable fan following

See again that's my point. See if you ask me this question about Modi. Some people praise him. Some people criticize him. But I can definitely answer that more people praise him than people who criticize him. If you all me the same question about rahul gandhi. Now he also has a considerable fan following. But I can definitely say that more people criticize him than praise him.

So you are still not answering a question clearly, which should be very easy to answer. What am I supposed to think?

Islam is not influenced at all by indian culture. It has it's origins in the Middle East, most notably in modern day Saudi Arabia. It is an Abrahamic faith that the is heavily influenced by Judaism and to a lesser extent, Christianity.

Everything else you have said is conjecture. Some Pakistanis maybe interested in indian culture but many are not. There are Pakistanis that are heavily influenced and have a deep curiosity of Islamic/Middle Eastern culture. That doesn't make us Middle Eastern either. These are just opinions but not tangible facts.

The people who comprise modern day Pakistan have very little if anything in common with modern day indians. Especially in terms of physical appearance and race.

The term "south asia" is highly generic and inaccurate. The British used that term because they could not tell the difference between any sort of people with darker skin. So they all incorrectly lumped as together. Even now, Pakistan is moving away from South Asia permanently and establishing stronger and growing links with China and the nations West of us of whom we share a lot in common with. This will continue & strengthen. Our past connections with South Asia will eventually disappear and be forgotten in the coming years/decades.

Btw I think in the top ten searched items in Pakistan, 2-3 are Indian tv shows.

I think Pakistani Islam is influenced by the deobandi and barelvi schools, which are in India. Need I say more.

Regarding physical appearance and race, from my own experience the average Pakistani I know is brown. And I'm much fairer than the most fair Pakistani I know also. I'm practically white, but I'm not the only one. There's a lot of people in my family friends who are very fair. It's virtually impossible to distinguish between south Asians. Between Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, I don't think anyone can demarcate them to specific countries. As a case in point, look at your cricket team, and how many of them you cannot be anything apart from Pakistani. Like shoib malik, there would be hundreds of look alikes of him in India.

Dunno what kind of race segregation are you attempting, it's just not possible.

If your language, religion, looks, tv content, movies etc has connections to India, I dunno how you guys are going to break that. All the best, but it's not logical, and all illogical things die their own natural death. A shared heritage of millennia cannot be discarded. People are not fools. Regarding trade links, it has nothing to do with culture. Never has, never will.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

See again that's my point. See if you ask me this question about Modi. Some people praise him. Some people criticize him. But I can definitely answer that more people praise him than people who criticize him. If you all me the same question about rahul gandhi. Now he also has a considerable fan following. But I can definitely say that more people criticize him than praise him.

So you are still not answering a question clearly, which should be very easy to answer. What am I supposed to think?



Btw I think in the top ten searched items in Pakistan, 2-3 are Indian tv shows.

I think Pakistani Islam is influenced by the deobandi and barelvi schools, which are in India. Need I say more.

Regarding physical appearance and race, from my own experience the average Pakistani I know is brown. And I'm much fairer than the most fair Pakistani I know also. I'm practically white, but I'm not the only one. There's a lot of people in my family friends who are very fair. It's virtually impossible to distinguish between south Asians. Between Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, I don't think anyone can demarcate them to specific countries. As a case in point, look at your cricket team, and how many of them you cannot be anything apart from Pakistani. Like shoib malik, there would be hundreds of look alikes of him in India.

Dunno what kind of race segregation are you attempting, it's just not possible.

If your language, religion, looks, tv content, movies etc has connections to India, I dunno how you guys are going to break that. All the best, but it's not logical, and all illogical things die their own natural death. A shared heritage of millennia cannot be discarded. People are not fools. Regarding trade links, it has nothing to do with culture. Never has, never will.

Very interesting talking to you. You are 1 of the very few indians on PDF and the net that is not crazy and very angry.

You and your family maybe white/fair but I was talking about how the MAJORITY OF Pakistanis and indians look physically. Was not being absolute or talking of anamolies.

The way the current Pakistan team looks or how some other Pakistanis you have interacted with look is neither here nor there. I have been to Pakistan over 20 times and also travelled all over the Muslim world. People from Central, Western and Northern regions of Pakistan bear a striking resemblance to Southern Turks and Persians. A lot of Baloch look Lebanese and Jordanian. That does not necessarily make us one of those nationalities. The different races and ethnicities that make up Pakistan are in the main completely different to those that make up india and the other South Asian nations. I personally find it very easy to tell a Pakistani from an indian. Always have done.

You say that you have distant relatives in Pakistan which is probably why you may feel there is a connection between the 2 nations. I highly doubt most indians feel this way.

The connections Pakistan may have had with south asia is slowly but surely disappearing permanently. I see this every year when I go to Pakistan. The ground reality in Pakistan is that Islam in Pakistan is very pervasive & growing but people are reluctant to admit to this due to terrorism. I see Islamic culture influencing Pakistan more and more. The media in Pakistan is not really representative of our nation but mere window dressing to show the world we are "liberal". Whatever that really means.

There will be those that may dabble in indian culture but they are the older generation. The younger generation is changing fast rapidly. Especially in this respect.

 

[ManavKalia]

Very interesting talking to you. You are 1 of the very few indians on PDF and the net that is not crazy and very angry.

You and your family maybe white/fair but I was talking about how the MAJORITY OF Pakistanis and indians look physically. Was not being absolute or talking of anamolies.

The way the current Pakistan team looks or how some other Pakistanis you have interacted with look is neither here nor there. I have been to Pakistan over 20 times and also travelled all over the Muslim world. People from Central, Western and Northern regions of Pakistan bear a striking resemblance to Southern Turks and Persians. A lot of Baloch look Lebanese and Jordanian. That does not necessarily make us one of those nationalities. The different races and ethnicities that make up Pakistan are in the main completely different to those that make up india and the other South Asian nations. I personally find it very easy to tell a Pakistani from an indian. Always have done.

You say that you have distant relatives in Pakistan which is probably why you may feel there is a connection between the 2 nations. I highly doubt most indians feel this way.

The connections Pakistan may have had with south asia is slowly but surely disappearing permanently. I see this every year when I go to Pakistan. The ground reality in Pakistan is that Islam in Pakistan is very pervasive & growing but people are reluctant to admit to this due to terrorism. I see Islamic culture influencing Pakistan more and more. The media in Pakistan is not really representative of our nation but mere window dressing to show the world we are "liberal". Whatever that really means.

There will be those that may dabble in indian culture but they are the older generation. The younger generation is changing fast rapidly. Especially in this respect.

I'm not talking about anomalies. Trust me there are a lot of fair people in India, if you watched any Indian movies or tv shows you wouldn't have asked this question.

And pick any member of Pakistan cricket team, I'll find hundreds in India who are identical twins to them.

Look at India's cricket team, same thing man. The classification you're attempting is not there.

I'm sure that religion must be undergoing a change. Same with culture. Most people aren't happy tho. Bottom line.

The amount of fan following of Indian tv shows, Indian movies, Indian celebrities, language similarities, it's just not possible that people stop watching Indian content or following Indian celebrities. People don't work that way, so it's not going to be that simple, the path to change. I've a feeling it'll never happen.

 

[Khan_patriot]

I'm not talking about anomalies. Trust me there are a lot of fair people in India, if you watched any Indian movies or tv shows you wouldn't have asked this question.

And pick any member of Pakistan cricket team, I'll find hundreds in India who are identical twins to them.

Look at India's cricket team, same thing man. The classification you're attempting is not there.

I'm sure that religion must be undergoing a change. Same with culture. Most people aren't happy tho. Bottom line.

The amount of fan following of Indian tv shows, Indian movies, Indian celebrities, language similarities, it's just not possible that people stop watching Indian content or following Indian celebrities. People don't work that way, so it's not going to be that simple, the path to change. I've a feeling it'll never happen.

There might be some similarities between people in Pakistan and north India but there is a very stark difference between people of Pakistan and south as well as east India. I can always able to differentiate between an Indian and Pakistani anywhere in the world.
Hollywood is not really representative of Indian facial features because they typically take fair skinned, coloured eyes and tall people as lead Actors (psychological remnants of the British raj)

 

[salarsikander]

So you are still not answering a question clearly, which should be very easy to answer. What am I supposed to think?

Let me Give you an Insight. The problem with using Modi example is, he is hyper nationalistic with controversial background as Gujarat Massacre. He is only playing with sentiments of people. And It is no surprise that most of his followers are hardcore Nationalists and goons who are enjoying complete immunity

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I'm not talking about anomalies. Trust me there are a lot of fair people in India, if you watched any Indian movies or tv shows you wouldn't have asked this question.

And pick any member of Pakistan cricket team, I'll find hundreds in India who are identical twins to them.

Look at India's cricket team, same thing man. The classification you're attempting is not there.

I'm sure that religion must be undergoing a change. Same with culture. Most people aren't happy tho. Bottom line.

The amount of fan following of Indian tv shows, Indian movies, Indian celebrities, language similarities, it's just not possible that people stop watching Indian content or following Indian celebrities. People don't work that way, so it's not going to be that simple, the path to change. I've a feeling it'll never happen.

Don't want to turn this into a racial argument. I'm sure that are many indians with very fair skin. Out of a population of 1.3 billion, there must be. I'm talking about the proportion of those people compared to the vast majority of the population. That's all. The standard average.

The vast change IS already happening albeit slowly. I'm not referring to the Pakistanis in the West that you have come across but the average ones in Pakistan. I visit Pakistan every year so I have already witnessed this. As each generation has passed since 1947, the connection between Pakistan and south asia has diminished in every possible way. Especially for the younger generation. Islam has pervaded Pakistan immensely. Admittedly in the 1980s, people still spoke about india and it's culture. Especially those that were born in india. That generation has now died off.

The PERCEPTION may be that there are lots of Pakistanis who dabble in indian media entertainment but the ground reality differs. Unlike years gone by, most Pakistanis don't really mention india or talk about anything indian related.

General Zia's Islamization of Pakistan DID work. It did come with a lots of tragedies but it's legacy is alive and kicking even today.

But apart from media entertainment, you need something FAR GREATER and DEEPER to connect 2 different people. Religion, racial heritage and beliefs provide that. All else is trivial and non binding.