Pak High Commission Staffer held for Espionage

[ManavKalia]

Let me Give you an Insight. The problem with using Modi example is, he is hyper nationalistic with controversial background as Gujarat Massacre. He is only playing with sentiments of people. And It is no surprise that most of his followers are hardcore Nationalists and goons who are enjoying complete immunity

See my take is that Modi is like any other politician in the world. As good or as bad as any of them.

Regarding Gujarat massacre, he was surely not responsible for directly killing anyone. The main charges on him were that he could have prevented the massacre but he delayed the state response.

Some people still believe he's guilty, some people believe he's not. There's no way to know for the common man. There was definitely some political motivation in the cases against him also. In the end the supreme court cleared him. Our judiciary has a lot of institutional respect, so I guess that was good enough for the majority of Indians.

He has a lot of plus points, like being a very good orator, virtually zero personal assets, good motivator, good administrative skills. Frankly apart from Modi, I don't see anyone else who can step up and challenge him for a leadership position of the country.

Right now, Kashmir and Pakistan are being used to divert attention from his failure of some of his promises on the economic front. But he's a showman, and very good at optics. India is the world's third largest economy, and Indians are hungry for recognition as a world player. Right now he's responsible for the feel good factor for a lot of Indians.

Dunno about the Gujarat carnage, but remember Pakistani politicians praising him a lot when he was elected, basically the contrast his austerity provided with your pm.

Regarding goons finding immunity, that's the same for every political party in every country. For me he's the same as every other politician, whose primary concern is always the vote bank.

There might be some similarities between people in Pakistan and north India but there is a very stark difference between people of Pakistan and south as well as east India. I can always able to differentiate between an Indian and Pakistani anywhere in the world.
Hollywood is not really representative of Indian facial features because they typically take fair skinned, coloured eyes and tall people as lead Actors (psychological remnants of the British raj)

Tell me one player in your cricket team, who looks so distinctly Pakistani that he can't be mistaken for Indian.

 

[T-72]

See my take is that Modi is like any other politician in the world. As good or as bad as any of them.

Regarding Gujarat massacre, he was surely not responsible for directly killing anyone. The main charges on him were that he could have prevented the massacre but he delayed the state response.

Some people still believe he's guilty, some people believe he's not. There's no way to know for the common man. There was definitely some political motivation in the cases against him also. In the end the supreme court cleared him. Our judiciary has a lot of institutional respect, so I guess that was good enough for the majority of Indians.

He has a lot of plus points, like being a very good orator, virtually zero personal assets, good motivator, good administrative skills. Frankly apart from Modi, I don't see anyone else who can step up and challenge him for a leadership position of the country.

Right now, Kashmir and Pakistan are being used to divert attention from his failure of some of his promises on the economic front. But he's a showman, and very good at optics. India is the world's third largest economy, and Indians are hungry for recognition as a world player. Right now he's responsible for the feel good factor for a lot of Indians.

Dunno about the Gujarat carnage, but remember Pakistani politicians praising him a lot when he was elected, basically the contrast his austerity provided with your pm.

Regarding goons finding immunity, that's the same for every political party in every country. For me he's the same as every other politician, whose primary concern is always the vote bank.

agree, it's almost a shame that we don't have anyone in the opposition who might challenge Modi. The dynasty are mostly done, Rahul is a joke, and I pity the guy actually, politics and national leadership is just not his thing.

 

[ManavKalia]

Don't want to turn this into a racial argument. I'm sure that are many indians with very fair skin. Out of a population of 1.3 billion, there must be. I'm talking about the proportion of those people compared to the vast majority of the population. That's all. The standard average.

The vast change IS already happening albeit slowly. I'm not referring to the Pakistanis in the West that you have come across but the average ones in Pakistan. I visit Pakistan every year so I have already witnessed this. As each generation has passed since 1947, the connection between Pakistan and south asia has diminished in every possible way. Especially for the younger generation. Islam has pervaded Pakistan immensely. Admittedly in the 1980s, people still spoke about india and it's culture. Especially those that were born in india. That generation has now died off.

The PERCEPTION may be that there are lots of Pakistanis who dabble in indian media entertainment but the ground reality differs. Unlike years gone by, most Pakistanis don't really mention india or talk about anything indian related.

General Zia's Islamization of Pakistan DID work. It did come with a lots of tragedies but it's legacy is alive and kicking even today.

But apart from media entertainment, you need something FAR GREATER and DEEPER to connect 2 different people. Religion, racial heritage and beliefs provide that. All else is trivial and non binding.

See the thing is that there is a forced attempt to de Indianize Pakistan identity, so much so that it started right after partition, if you follow the history of Hindi and Urdu.

My argument is that, if Indian movies are very popular among Pakistanis, and Indian tv shows, Indian celebrities, how much of that is working, the attempt to deIndianize Pakistan's culture and identity. A lot of your culture if formed thru tv shows and movies you watch regularly, the celebrities you follow, the music you dance to etc.

Get the point I'm trying to make?

agree, it's almost a shame that we don't have anyone in the opposition who might challenge Modi. The dynasty are mostly done, Rahul is a joke, and I pity the guy actually, politics and national leadership is just not his thing.

Rahul is a clown, but his sister has the capabilities to become a national leader. Has natural charisma that rahul lacks. Let's see, you can never say never in politics.

 

[T-72]

Rahul is a clown, but his sister has the capabilities to become a national leader. Has natural charisma that rahul lacks. Let's see, you can never say never in politics.

yes, I was about to say that about Bianka but her brother's failure at it has set a bad stepping stone for anyone to follow, and, lets face it, it's not the 80s, the allure of a strong woman leader isn't what it once was, there is no novelty to it, she too, will fail, the congress needs a reboot.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

See the thing is that there is a forced attempt to de Indianize Pakistan identity, so much so that it started right after partition, if you follow the history of Hindi and Urdu.

My argument is that, if Indian movies are very popular among Pakistanis, and Indian tv shows, Indian celebrities, how much of that is working, the attempt to deIndianize Pakistan's culture and identity. A lot of your culture if formed thru tv shows and movies you watch regularly, the celebrities you follow, the music you dance to etc.

Get the point I'm trying to make?



Rahul is a clown, but his sister has the capabilities to become a national leader. Has natural charisma that rahul lacks. Let's see, you can never say never in politics.

Don't think TV and the media can really define or make culture ultimately. It is usually your beliefs. Provided it is strong. The love for Islam and Islamic belief is more stronger in Pakistan than in any other nation on earth. You say indian films and programs are popular in Pakistan. Amongst the older generation maybe. But that popularity is nowhere near at the level it was 10 years ago or before that. That's the big point. I can categorically say that Pakistan is decisively moving away from South Asia in every possible way. In the long run this will be very beneficial to Pakistan and South Asia. It's a win-win for all.

See my take is that Modi is like any other politician in the world. As good or as bad as any of them.

Regarding Gujarat massacre, he was surely not responsible for directly killing anyone. The main charges on him were that he could have prevented the massacre but he delayed the state response.

Some people still believe he's guilty, some people believe he's not. There's no way to know for the common man. There was definitely some political motivation in the cases against him also. In the end the supreme court cleared him. Our judiciary has a lot of institutional respect, so I guess that was good enough for the majority of Indians.

He has a lot of plus points, like being a very good orator, virtually zero personal assets, good motivator, good administrative skills. Frankly apart from Modi, I don't see anyone else who can step up and challenge him for a leadership position of the country.

Right now, Kashmir and Pakistan are being used to divert attention from his failure of some of his promises on the economic front. But he's a showman, and very good at optics. India is the world's third largest economy, and Indians are hungry for recognition as a world player. Right now he's responsible for the feel good factor for a lot of Indians.

Dunno about the Gujarat carnage, but remember Pakistani politicians praising him a lot when he was elected, basically the contrast his austerity provided with your pm.

Regarding goons finding immunity, that's the same for every political party in every country. For me he's the same as every other politician, whose primary concern is always the vote bank.



Tell me one player in your cricket team, who looks so distinctly Pakistani that he can't be mistaken for Indian.

Shahid Afridi, Yasir Shah and Umer Gul.

The people in Central, Northern and Western Pakistan are identical to the Persians and Pashtun in terms of looks and physical appearance.

 

[ManavKalia]

yes, I was about to say that about Bianka but her brother's failure at it has set a bad stepping stone for anyone to follow, and, lets face it, it's not the 80s, the allure of a strong woman leader isn't what it once was, there is no novelty to it, she too, will fail, the congress needs a reboot.

Plus she's carrying the vadra baggage too.. But if anyone can rejuvenate congress I would put my money on her rather than her brother

 

[T-72]

I can categorically say that Pakistan is decisively moving away from South Asia in every possible way. In the long run this will be very beneficial to Pakistan and South Asia. It's a win-win for all.

right, and just where is it, that are you guys leaving for ?

Plus she's carrying the vadra baggage too.. But if anyone can rejuvenate congress I would put my money on her rather than her brother

my money is on Modi and the BJP dominating the political scene for at least another decade, congis/left are finished, should re-group and begin work on a post Ghandy strategy already.

 

[ManavKalia]

Shahid Afridi, Yasir Shah and Umer Gul.

The people in Central, Northern and Western Pakistan are identical to the Persians and Pashtun in terms of looks and physical appearance.

Can't recollect yasir Shah, but I remember umar gul, and afridi

Go to the northern hill states like himachal etc you'll find plenty of people who look like them.

right, and just where is it, that are you guys leaving for ?


my money is on Modi and the BJP dominating the political scene for at least another decade, congis/left are finished, should re-group and begin work on a post Ghandy strategy already.

Ya ya decade easy, but then you never know in politics.. Vajpayee loss was a shocker.. The problem is congress really doesn't work without the Gandhi's, the dynastic mindset is too strong..

Don't think TV and the media can really define or make culture ultimately. It is usually your beliefs. Provided it is strong. The love for Islam and Islamic belief is more stronger in Pakistan than in any other nation on earth. You say indian films and programs are popular in Pakistan. Amongst the older generation maybe. But that popularity is nowhere near at the level it was 10 years ago or before that. That's the big point. I can categorically say that Pakistan is decisively moving away from South Asia in every possible way. In the long run this will be very beneficial to Pakistan and South Asia. It's a win-win for all.

Islam is followed everywhere. India Bangladesh have similar number of Muslims as Pakistan. Religion is different, culture is different. The mistake in recognizing that was the sole reason for Bangladesh's creation.

The older generation is not searching for big boss and kum kum bhagya etc on the net, it's the younger gen which is internet savvy

The teen population is the one who flocks to the theaters every weekend to watch latest Bollywood flicks

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Can't recollect yasir Shah, but I remember umar gul, and afridi

Go to the northern hill states like himachal etc you'll find plenty of people who look like them.



Ya ya decade easy, but then you never know in politics.. Vajpayee loss was a shocker.. The problem is congress really doesn't work without the Gandhi's, the dynastic mindset is too strong..



Islam is followed everywhere. India Bangladesh have similar number of Muslims as Pakistan. Religion is different, culture is different. The mistake in recognizing that was the sole reason for Bangladesh's creation.

The older generation is not searching for big boss and kum kum bhagya etc on the net, it's the younger gen which is internet savvy

The teen population is the one who flocks to the theaters every weekend to watch latest Bollywood flicks

But not in the numbers they once did. There's definitely been a massive shift in the last 10 years. It will grow with time. It's like the Jews who left Russia and Eastern Europe in the early 90s for Israel after the collapse of the Soviet Union. They no longer have any feelings or connections to their former nations and feel completely Jewish. Some will still maintain some small link with the old countries but it diminishes with time. So it is with Pakistanis who feel very "Muslim". Watching a film you waste time is not very culturally defining.

 

[ManavKalia]

But not in the numbers they once did. There's definitely been a massive shift in the last 10 years. It will grow with time. It's like the Jews who left Russia and Eastern Europe in the early 90s for Israel after the collapse of the Soviet Union. They no longer have any feelings or connections to their former nations and feel completely Jewish. Some will still maintain some small link with the old countries but it diminishes with time. So it is with Pakistanis who feel very "Muslim". Watching a film you waste time is not very culturally defining.

In the last year, 2015, 7/10 most searched items in Pakistan was Indian movies and Indian tv shows. Only 1/10 was Pakistani. 5/10 of the most searched people were Indians.Only 3/10 were Pakistani. People who go on the internet comprise mostly a younger demographic. No Pakistani item or person, occupies a similar position in any Indian top ten list.

All arguments have to be backed by facts and logic. Merely because you think something should be true, or can be true will not actually make it true.

This is consistent with my personal experiences with Pakistani people too. They have much more interest in Indian people, celebrities, politicians, news, movies, tv shows etc than their Indian counterparts have for similar things across the border.

Of course everyone is also aware of the radicalization that is going on in Pakistan, of the Saudi Wahabbi influence. The liberal demographic is influenced by the closest liberal society they have which is India. I see it as an interesting tussle between the liberals and the radicals which is taking place. Time will tell whether liberals would lose any space, and how much space, and how soon. I suspect that they will be able to hold onto their own space. Finally the choice for Pakistan will be to go back to backward times which the Saudis want, or go forward to become a progressive nation like India.

Actually in India we are facing a similar tussle between conservative rural mindsets which prohibit girls from wearing jeans, carrying mobiles etc and the young aspirational India which wants to break free from decadent traditions.

Interesting times ahead for the subcontinent.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

In the last year, 2015, 7/10 most searched items in Pakistan was Indian movies and Indian tv shows. Only 1/10 was Pakistani. 5/10 of the most searched people were Indians.Only 3/10 were Pakistani. People who go on the internet comprise mostly a younger demographic. No Pakistani item or person, occupies a similar position in any Indian top ten list.

All arguments have to be backed by facts and logic. Merely because you think something should be true, or can be true will not actually make it true.

This is consistent with my personal experiences with Pakistani people too. They have much more interest in Indian people, celebrities, politicians, news, movies, tv shows etc than their Indian counterparts have for similar things across the border.

Of course everyone is also aware of the radicalization that is going on in Pakistan, of the Saudi Wahabbi influence. The liberal demographic is influenced by the closest liberal society they have which is India. I see it as an interesting tussle between the liberals and the radicals which is taking place. Time will tell whether liberals would lose any space, and how much space, and how soon. I suspect that they will be able to hold onto their own space. Finally the choice for Pakistan will be to go back to backward times which the Saudis want, or go forward to become a progressive nation like India.

Actually in India we are facing a similar tussle between conservative rural mindsets which prohibit girls from wearing jeans, carrying mobiles etc and the young aspirational India which wants to break free from decadent traditions.

Interesting times ahead for the subcontinent.

You're argument on basing Pakistani culture on that of indian culture is seriously flawed. Hobbies, entertainment & past times do not constitute culture. Cultures are built on a strong religious or belief ethos. Western culture is based on Jedeau Christian ethos/value. indian culture is based on a hindu ethos. Pakistani culture is based on an Islamic ethos. The difference is huge.

 

[ManavKalia]

You're argument on basing Pakistani culture on that of indian culture is seriously flawed. Hobbies, entertainment & past times do not constitute culture. Cultures are built on a strong religious or belief ethos. Western culture is based on Jedeau Christian ethos/value. indian culture is based on a hindu ethos. Pakistani culture is based on an Islamic ethos. The difference is huge.

Your argument that culture is solely based on religion, and not at all on language, regional ethnicity, hobbies, social norms, entertainment etc is absolutely flawed.

Your theory is propagated by Pakistan, as it is the basis of your foundation I.e. The two nation theory.

The myth of that theory was busted by the creation of Bangladesh, who shared a common religion with but not their culture. And when you tried to impose your culture in the form of Urdu, it was one of the main catalysts, in their separation from you. If culture was solely based on religion Bangladesh would never have been created.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Your argument that culture is solely based on religion, and not at all on language, regional ethnicity, hobbies, social norms, entertainment etc is absolutely flawed.

Your theory is propagated by Pakistan, as it is the basis of your foundation I.e. The two nation theory.

The myth of that theory was busted by the creation of Bangladesh, who shared a common religion with but not their culture. And when you tried to impose your culture in the form of Urdu, it was one of the main catalysts, in their separation from you. If culture was solely based on religion Bangladesh would never have been created.

No. Culture is based on race, religion, beliefs, common values and ethos. Two nation theory was in fact validated & strengthen and became the 3 nation theory. Had the 2 nation theory failed, Bangladesh would have become a part of india.

 

[ManavKalia]

No. Culture is based on race, religion, beliefs, common values and ethos. Two nation theory was in fact validated & strengthen and became the 3 nation theory. Had the 2 nation theory failed, Bangladesh would have become a part of india.

I agree that culture is based on many factors including religion, language, race and ethnicity, hobbies, entertainment, social norms etc.

I was disproving your original argument that culture was only based on religion without any other components, that if this was true, then Bangladesh wouldn't have separated from you.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Your argument that culture is solely based on religion, and not at all on language, regional ethnicity, hobbies, social norms, entertainment etc is absolutely flawed.

Your theory is propagated by Pakistan, as it is the basis of your foundation I.e. The two nation theory.

The myth of that theory was busted by the creation of Bangladesh, who shared a common religion with but not their culture. And when you tried to impose your culture in the form of Urdu, it was one of the main catalysts, in their separation from you. If culture was solely based on religion Bangladesh would never have been created.

When you get familiar with the dramatis personae (what else?) on this forum, you will realise that you are conversing with a dangerously flawed mind. He may say this, he may say that, but ultimately, he represents a position where the citizens of one nation just accidentally happen to be ethnically and racially the superiors of their neighbouring nation. There is no connection between them, according to him, except the unfortunate fact of their juxtaposition in geography.

His present answers may differ, but essentially, he stands for racial superiority. And, of course, the trains run on time.

I agree that culture is based on many factors including religion, language, race and ethnicity, hobbies, entertainment, social norms etc.

I was disproving your original argument that culture was only based on religion without any other components, that if this was true, then Bangladesh wouldn't have separated from you.

I note with mild interest that you did not respond to the muddled thinking about the Two Nation Theory, which was magically transmuted to the Three Nation Theory. This makes a complete nonsense of Jinnah's adoption of the Two Nation Theory, which was, in effect, founded on the sole criterion of religion being the determinant of all other characteristics. If it is untrue, there is no possibility of any Three Nation Theory, unless we postulate that the religious characteristics of Bangladesh are different from those of the rest of the world.