PAK-FA vs J-XX

[nomi007]

Chinese avionics are much better than Russian t-50
but Russian engines are highly reliable.
reason is very simple that Pakistan is purchasing FC-20 from china with AL-31.
t-50 design base on yf-23
chinese design base on yf-22

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Chinese avionics are much better than Russian t-50
but Russian engines are highly reliable.
reason is very simple that Pakistan is purchasing FC-20 from china with AL-31.
t-50 design base on yf-23
chinese design base on yf-22

YF 23

Pak-FA

F 22

J 20

comparison

comparison 2



If you see all these pics and still say that J 20 is derived from F 22 and PAK FA from YF 23 then you need to check your eyes.

 

[Black Widow]

Chinese avionics are much better than Russian t-50
but Russian engines are highly reliable.
reason is very simple that Pakistan is purchasing FC-20 from china with AL-31.
t-50 design base on yf-23
chinese design base on yf-22

your post don't worth a comment....

 

[bhejafry]

My two cents

Airframe / aerodynamics: The Russians have a massive head start, and they build the most manoeuvrable, beautiful fighter jets in the world. The Chinese experience is based on F-7 copies (J-7, JF-17), or designs based on other jets (J-11, J-10). Advantage Russia

Engine: same as above, even more gap in favour of Russians, the Chinese are still trying to copy last-gen Russian engines and engine tech is not something you can steal as easily, you need the Industrial base. Huge advantage Russia

Radar/avionics: The Chinese would lag in this again, and from an Indian perspective doesn’t matter. The Indian PAK-FA will be like the Su-30MKI, marrying western electronics with a great airframe. Advantage Russia, huge advantage Indian version

Stealth: here China and Russia are starting from scratch, so its a matter of who can spend more on R&D (China) and steal tech easily (China). But joining hands with India, and the financing India provides, reduces the gap. So small advantage China

Hence, we would have J-XX being slightly more stealthy than PAK-FA, but the gap would be very low compared to F-22 vs other jets today. In most case, therefore it will boil down to closer range traditional combat, where the PAK-FA’s superior engine, aerodynamics and (in case of the Indian version) avionics would prevail, probably a 2-to-1 kill ratio.

 

[tvsram1992]

Su30mki vs J-10

 

[HKSDU]

My two cents

Airframe / aerodynamics: The Russians have a massive head start, and they build the most manoeuvrable, beautiful fighter jets in the world. The Chinese experience is based on F-7 copies (J-7, JF-17), or designs based on other jets (J-11, J-10). Advantage Russia

Engine: same as above, even more gap in favour of Russians, the Chinese are still trying to copy last-gen Russian engines and engine tech is not something you can steal as easily, you need the Industrial base. Huge advantage Russia

Radar/avionics: The Chinese would lag in this again, and from an Indian perspective doesn’t matter. The Indian PAK-FA will be like the Su-30MKI, marrying western electronics with a great airframe. Advantage Russia, huge advantage Indian version

Stealth: here China and Russia are starting from scratch, so its a matter of who can spend more on R&D (China) and steal tech easily (China). But joining hands with India, and the financing India provides, reduces the gap. So small advantage China

Hence, we would have J-XX being slightly more stealthy than PAK-FA, but the gap would be very low compared to F-22 vs other jets today. In most case, therefore it will boil down to closer range traditional combat, where the PAK-FA’s superior engine, aerodynamics and (in case of the Indian version) avionics would prevail, probably a 2-to-1 kill ratio.

Airframe: Russia is still using Soviet Union design. China has been mix and matching with multiple aircrafts. (J-10, JH-7, JF-17, J-20). F-7 = J-7 buddy, its the Western designation of Chinese aircraft. You mean Mig-21, and a also argue with you there about JF-17 copy of Mig-21, since when did Mig-21 use DSI and side mounted intakes.

Engine: They work but they have very short service life. China may not have mass equipped turbofans yet, but they have managed to make the service life of the AL-31 longer. This achievement is no low tech, Russia couldn't extend the service life of their own turbofans but China can, something to think about. Evidence of copying AL-31 please. Influence and design assistance, no doubt, but copying...nope.

Radar/Avionics: I disagree completely. Russian flankers were still using old analogue cockpits while China had digital cockpits. Mi-17 sold to China were analogues which China replaced with digital. China is ahead in radar/avionics.

Stealth: It looks like the underbelly shaping of J-20 is cleaner with less angle of radar deflection than the T-50.

Both aren't in service and are still prototypes, and your saying 2-1 kill ratio. Bit early on the guessing game.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Airframe: Russia is still using Soviet Union design. China has been mix and matching with multiple aircrafts. (J-10, JH-7, JF-17, J-20). F-7 = J-7 buddy, its the Western designation of Chinese aircraft. You mean Mig-21, and a also argue with you there about JF-17 copy of Mig-21, since when did Mig-21 use DSI and side mounted intakes.

Engine: They work but they have very short service life. China may not have mass equipped turbofans yet, but they have managed to make the service life of the AL-31 longer. This achievement is no low tech, Russia couldn't extend the service life of their own turbofans but China can, something to think about. Evidence of copying AL-31 please. Influence and design assistance, no doubt, but copying...nope.

Radar/Avionics: I disagree completely. Russian flankers were still using old analogue cockpits while China had digital cockpits. Mi-17 sold to China were analogues which China replaced with digital. China is ahead in radar/avionics.

Stealth: It looks like the underbelly shaping of J-20 is cleaner with less angle of radar deflection than the T-50.

Both aren't in service and are still prototypes, and your saying 2-1 kill ratio. Bit early on the guessing game.

Can you explain me about the Under belly shaping with less angles reducing the frontal RCS of the aircraft?

And name one post cold war aircraft in service with the west.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Defunct Humanity: New interview with Al-41F chief designer

Some news about the engine in PAK FA

 

[bhejafry]

Airframe: “Russia is still using Soviet Union design. China has been mix and matching with multiple aircrafts.”
Russia’s Sukhoi team has decades of experience DESIGNING Jets, and have succeeded in consistently making good jets. China stealing and modifying 3 different designs doesn’t provide them any actual expertise in designing an aircraft from scratch.

Engine: “They work but they have very short service life. China may not have mass equipped turbofans yet, but they have managed to make the service life of the AL-31 longer. “
Again, same difference, agreed about Russian engines having low life (which is why the LCA GE engine is so much more expensive than the Russian JF-17 engines) but actually designing very powerful engine for 50 years (Russia) versus designing and building your first real indigenous engine (China), big difference as India has found with Kaveri

Radar/Avionics: “ China is ahead in radar/avionics.”
Possibly, this has always been a weakness of Russian planes. But India will use the Su-30MKI experience and Israeli/French know-how. So Chinese J-xx better than Russian T-50, Indian “T-50 MKI” or PAK-FA as we call it, better than J-xx

Stealth: I agree, the Chinese design will be more stealthy. But PAK-FA will also be close, will probably end up being much shorter-ranged fights than with previous generation jet where radar/missiles/manoeuvrability will decide.

As you said, too early for a guessing game, but we can safely guess how each plane will turn out. The Russians have pedigree and skill but lacked funding, the Chinese have cash and good at stealing tech, the financing provided by India tips the scale

 

[DacterSaab]

the forward canards in the jxx are out to make some diffrence ....may be an edge on the pakfa in maneurability...

PAK FA employs Leading Edge Vortex Controllers (LEVCON) That allows it to maintain manuverability greater than or equal to carnard equipped fighters. Coupled with all aspect 3D thrust vectorin and more manuverable aerodynamics (notice J-20 uses slab like Fusselage and wing design, exhausts as seen on Mig-25/31)
So the PAK FA should be more maneuverable but......

this is a very speculative thread as no credible sources are available atm

Also it should be remembered that both planes are currently in their Prototype phase the production models will be very different. We should probably discuss it in 2015 as some credible source may be available by then. Although for a fair comparison we must wait till 2025 by then all will be known about these aircrafts and Pakistan will probably buy/get a few of them too.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

PAK FA employs Leading Edge Vortex Controllers (LEVCON) That allows it to maintain manuverability greater than or equal to carnard equipped fighters. Coupled with all aspect 3D thrust vectorin and more manuverable aerodynamics (notice J-20 uses slab like Fusselage and wing design, exhausts as seen on Mig-25/31)
So the PAK FA should be more maneuverable but......

this is a very speculative thread as no credible sources are available atm

Also it should be remembered that both planes are currently in their Prototype phase the production models will be very different. We should probably discuss it in 2015 as some credible source may be available by then. Although for a fair comparison we must wait till 2025 by then all will be known about these aircrafts and Pakistan will probably buy/get a few of them too.

You are a bit wrong there mate....PAK-FA is still in TD phase.

 

[HKSDU]

Airframe: “Russia is still using Soviet Union design. China has been mix and matching with multiple aircrafts.”
Russia’s Sukhoi team has decades of experience DESIGNING Jets, and have succeeded in consistently making good jets. China stealing and modifying 3 different designs doesn’t provide them any actual expertise in designing an aircraft from scratch.

Engine: “They work but they have very short service life. China may not have mass equipped turbofans yet, but they have managed to make the service life of the AL-31 longer. “
Again, same difference, agreed about Russian engines having low life (which is why the LCA GE engine is so much more expensive than the Russian JF-17 engines) but actually designing very powerful engine for 50 years (Russia) versus designing and building your first real indigenous engine (China), big difference as India has found with Kaveri

Radar/Avionics: “ China is ahead in radar/avionics.”
Possibly, this has always been a weakness of Russian planes. But India will use the Su-30MKI experience and Israeli/French know-how. So Chinese J-xx better than Russian T-50, Indian “T-50 MKI” or PAK-FA as we call it, better than J-xx

Stealth: I agree, the Chinese design will be more stealthy. But PAK-FA will also be close, will probably end up being much shorter-ranged fights than with previous generation jet where radar/missiles/manoeuvrability will decide.

As you said, too early for a guessing game, but we can safely guess how each plane will turn out. The Russians have pedigree and skill but lacked funding, the Chinese have cash and good at stealing tech, the financing provided by India tips the scale

Education and knowledge is always stolen from one another. So the rules of aerodynamics is not owned by Russia or no one else. The big 5 all have espionage programs. If China doesn't catch up how will it innovate? You could either learn by yourself which will take ages and ages, and by the time you learnt that you already behind. Or you could absorb everything, catch up and then innovate. To me the J-20 is on the tipping scale of complete innovation by the Chinese art. Don't forget J-20 is done by single country, T-50 is done by two. FYI how else did you think America and Soviet Union all of a sudden evolved so quickly after World War 2....*cough* German engineers and technology being stolen or bribed.

 

[DacterSaab]

The Russians already have two stealth Tech Demos mig-1.44 and su-47 berkut
how can you say Russians are starting from scratch.
Also Russian R&D for stealth started as soon as USA's first stealth aircraft came out a time when Chinese aerospace industry couldn't even think of stealth.
Add to that the decades of experience manufacturing planes And then how can you say that chinese R&D would be more efficient?

 

[koushik]

Guys,guys,guys........if i am not wrong then the Production PAK FA jets will feature engines producing 350KN thrust (2 x 175kn) each and will have T/W ratio of around 1.3 as a result it would be most kinematically superior jet ever made and couple that with 3D TVC you dont need any other aids like LEVCONS to enhance maneuverability.It would be the most maneuverable jet to be produced till date.

 

[UKBengali]

Both J-20 and the PAK-FA are likely to be good fighters. They will probably be inferior to a F-22 but not massively so, that a F-22 pilot can be comfortable in his seat when he faces either one.

Personally I think that the difference in capability between the J-20 and the PAK-FA will be negligible.

Russia has massive experience in fighters over the last six decades but the last 20 years have allowed China to significantly close the gap with Russia.