PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[Jungibaaz]

And what are your opinions about JF-17 bock I/II/III/IV/X/XX/XXX and FC-20 and Imaginary China Stealth fighter, Tipu, Taimur, etc. ICBM threads.

all I can say is....

Pak nukes were once imaginary, as were Block 52s, and AMRAAM, JFT was too, J-10B was once just a rumour.
I guess we can add more the DARKY's list of..... 'if I can't see it, it can't be there'

 

[SQ8]

Roughly equal in JFT case....
Yes the single engine variant is tweaked to give better performances however that makes it maintenance intensive... every one knows what happened to Al-31 variants on J-10s...
And I did the generalization on the basis of same size one can always tweak the core temperature a bit...make larger blades and get higher output... but that makes the engine heavier and larger than the original one... use composites.. same can be done on double engine planes...
AESA makes it easier to track while scan and scan and spot more and track then equally good thanks to many small T/R modules... however to track the longer ranged targets one still need a power AESA which means more power consuming T/R modules... at time an AESA consumes more power than the pulse Doppler mechanically steered Radar.

What is the power input to a T/R module?

 

[DARKY]

see post number 1149

Yes I saw that... however I seriously doubt that a general PAF vintage has the number of flying hours on F-16/JF-17 in comparison to what IAF vintages clock yearly... i.e. in oder of 200-250 hrs/year.... while the elite squadron (don't remember the name clearly i.e. hawks/hunters) who flew Su 30MK have more 1200 hrs under their belt on flankers... now if they sweat more time in training... they have to very dumb.. If they aren't better than their counterparts in PAF... or PAF ones learn flying in their mother's womb perhaps... to become superior pilots.

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

What is the power input to a T/R module?

Depends on the transistor used.

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------

all I can say is....

Pak nukes were once imaginary, as were Block 52s, and AMRAAM, JFT was too, J-10B was once just a rumour.
I guess we can add more the DARKY's list of..... 'if I can't see it, it can't be there'

You missed the part so... don't jump in between.

 

[Jungibaaz]

*So what is your point ?? Indian enjoys the overwhelming air superiority over pakistan

for now, but after planned procurement, PAF can hold it's own quite nicely.

*China products especially are untested and surely not superior to it's western counterpart .. hack the even export engines from russia

untested? they are tested.... you mean battle proven?
no they aren't really battle proven but then again, neither are F-15 silent eagles, they must suck too right?

engine exports? no shame in that.... how's Kaveri going?
besides, WS-10 variants and WS-13 are ready.

*J-10 B is again not operational and again it will take time to get maturity -- by having technology and using the technology are two different things.. maturity of a platform is important.

It is..... but then again same can be said about lots of tech on the F-35..... must suck until it reaches maturity?

*what baseless argument ?? as you people are poor in maths you forget the numbers and simply rants that PAF will take care of IAF without giving any solid argument and goes into defensive like PAF's doctrine of defence.

Yes baseless views.... in a scenario you painted with MKI, MMRCA, it falls beyond 2015, where PAF would have made necessary improvements to deal with IAF threat.

So unless you have a crystal ball or are part of CAC, I don't see how you can come to such conclusions.

 

[IND151]

This part reminds me of a comaero between a german sports car(was cheaper,easy on maintanence &very powerful-in short a elegant &dependable pakage) & a lamborghini Diablo (brutish power,great stearing &very good sounding silencers in short-a hairy chested feel) & believe me lambo won because the buyers of this catagory are not much bothered about cost but that "hairy chested feel" so sir did you got my POINT, Thanks .

i meant that IAF will use mix of Russian and western fighters

 

[Jungibaaz]

You missed the part so... don't jump in between.

No I quite clearly saw IK's comment, smiled for a bit while reading through it, read yours and commented...


so..... what say?

 

[DARKY]

No I quite clearly saw IK's comment, smiled for a bit while reading through it, read yours and commented...


so..... what say?

smile a bit more.... and leave that to IK....

 

[GURU DUTT]

Yes I saw that... however I seriously doubt that a general PAF vintage has the number of flying hours on F-16/JF-17 in comparison to what IAF vintages clock yearly... i.e. in oder of 200-250 hrs/year.... while the elite squadron (don't remember the name clearly i.e. hawks/hunters) who flew Su 30MK have more 1200 hrs under their belt on flankers... now if they sweat more time in training... they have to very dumb.. If they aren't better than their counterparts in PAF... or PAF ones learn flying in their mother's womb perhaps... to become superior pilots.[COLOR="Silver"]

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

[/COLOR]

Depends on the transistor used.

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------



You missed the part so... don't jump in between.

Well sir thats the basis of all the argument our esteamed hosts have.?
Anyway thanks sir for your very nice & informative posts ,thanks again .

 

[DARKY]

Well sir thats the basis of all the argument our esteamed hosts have.?
Anyway thanks sir for your very nice & informative posts ,thanks again .

You're Welcome my good friend....

 

[SQ8]

Yes I saw that... however I seriously doubt that a general PAF vintage has the number of flying hours on F-16/JF-17 in comparison to what IAF vintages clock yearly... i.e. in oder of 200-250 hrs/year.... while the elite squadron (don't remember the name clearly i.e. hawks/hunters) who flew Su 30MK have more 1200 hrs under their belt on flankers... now if they sweat more time in training... they have to very dumb.. If they aren't better than their counterparts in PAF... or PAF ones learn flying in their mother's womb perhaps... to become superior pilots.

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------



Depends on the transistor used.

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ----------



You missed the part so... don't jump in between.

So..a galinium arsinede MOSFET??

 

[deckingraj]

It's simple, Indian losses will be costlier, because we operate more expensive machines, simple logic. About PAF losses, there fight is to defend there airspace, so thier efforts are relatively easier.

Aren't you wrong in comparing the cost of machine here???? Cost of the machine is a very very relative term, no??? If my economy is good i can very well afford to loose a costlier machine then my counterpart....I asked this question to another guy let me pose it to you as well....Who will have a bigger hit if IAF looses 18 MKI and PAF looses 18 Block 52??? Even though MKI are costlier i think IAF will happily agree for this kind of loss...what do you think????

No, 4-6 years will see induction of LCA mk2, around 36 (HAL)MKI's, and around 50 additional, russian MKI's, 30-36 super 30 upgrades and atleast 2-3 sqdns of MMRCA, along with larger deployment of Akash and barak2 systems. If LCA mk2 project turns out what it's conceived to be, then rest assured for larger number of deployment will occur. This will increase two crucial roles, Ability of supporting multiple air interdiction strike packages and higher air defense sorties to secure our assets from counter attacks.

Buddy you have ignored a very important aspect here...Induction is not good enough....MKI's were very well inducted before the Kargil war but they did not participate in it....guess why???? Also ou did not answer we are weak in comparison to whom???

Look at the IAF current lineup, M2K , M29SMT and MKI's are all air superiority fighters masquerading as multirole strikers, mig 21 bisons have been the backbone for point defence role, LCA mk2 will take on this mantle along with forward CAS and point defencee roles.

Agree on this part....

IAF is at its lowest sqdn strength, if there is conflict tomorrow, and say china as a support to the PAF's war effort decides to just flying patrol sorties near the eastern border, we will have to divert our work force to the east, which will reduce the full potential to operate frontline strike a/cs. If say in next ten years say there are around 400 LCA mk2 to ensure safety of Indian airspace, our other platforms can engage the enemy in their own territory, hence success of LCA is very crucial.

As said if PAF is banking upon support from China as a hedge agains IAF then atleast to me this is not a good strategy...What is they did not fly those sorties???? Then do you think we will go with our full force???? And if yes then how will PAF respond????

 

[majesticpankaj]

for now, but after planned procurement, PAF can hold it's own quite nicely.


untested? they are tested.... you mean battle proven?
no they aren't really battle proven but then again, neither are F-15 silent eagles, they must suck too right?

engine exports? no shame in that.... how's Kaveri going?
besides, WS-10 variants and WS-13 are ready.


It is..... but then again same can be said about lots of tech on the F-35..... must suck until it reaches maturity?


Yes baseless views.... in a scenario you painted with MKI, MMRCA, it falls beyond 2015, where PAF would have made necessary improvements to deal with IAF threat.

So unless you have a crystal ball or are part of CAC, I don't see how you can come to such conclusions.

*Tell me what planned procurement by PAF relative to IAF ?? we are inducting Su 30 mki along with mig 29 and up-gradation are already finalized. PAF is inducting mad in china jf-17 and rest is speculations.

*Untested means maturity of platform and use the jets at it's optimal level which only comes with exercises and experience. JF-17 is a new bee .. heck even china don't want to replace their mig series with JF-17

* definitely f-35 will suck big time until it reaches maturity.. they will gain the confidence over a period of time .. don't you know US is upgrading her f-16 fleet ? I don't know that pakistanis are born fighter pilots

* what necessary improvement I just want to know.. please enlighten us in terms of quality and quantity .. and please don't bring paper planes.

 

[deckingraj]

The IAF needs atleast 2 or 3 squadrons stationed near the border against China to protect its flank and every sign points to the fact that IAF will station these many squadrons near the Chinese border even if a full scale shooting war breaks out between India and Pakistan.

No doubt about that fact...However that is what is troubling me the most...You are hedging your bets on China and India equation...What if they did not partcipate in the manner you want them to???? Anyhow these squadrons will not participate as long as we are able to achieve our objective which is controlling Pak Air-space...I don't see any logic of not using them even at the cost of loosing the objective...Keep in mind that we used our reserves for China way back in 71 war to achieve our objectives in East Bangladesh...

For its initial attack, IAF needs to assign its aircrafts into three categories: Air Superiority, Air Defence and CAS. As the IAF assigns its numbers into these three tasks, your numerical superiority will fade.

Aren't you going to do the same??? Today multi-role is the mantra...

I have my doubts if every single IAF plane will participate in the war, there is no way in hell the IAF can achieve 100% operational rate. For most modern Western Air Forces 70-80% is considered a good number, there is no way the IAF will be fielding 100% of its inventory in the air. Russian aircrafts are maintenance nightmares and are known to require extensive overhaul, this will slow down the amount of aircrafts that can be launched in the air as they will be going through overhauls.

Well we need to bench mark something to compate...If IAF cannot achieve 100% operational rate then how come PAF can??? In short the number game is still going to be the same...no????

The MKI is known as a maintenance nightmare and will not be generating a lot of sorties, you can mark my words for that. It can definitely carry out long missions thats for sure but there is no way it generate high amount of sorties. Once again the main work horse is going to be the M2K's that are known for their high sortie rates and easy operational requirements. PAF does not need 4th Generation aircrafts to tame the MKI, just the right tactics and the necessary force multipliers will do the job.

MKI is not a maintenance nightmare.....Anyhow we always had Russian Aircrafts...Just look at the number of sorties we performed in 71...but then if you can tame the MKI's with right tactics and necessary force multipliers then why are you ignoring the same for IAF??? I mean with right tactics and necessary force multiplier our so called 3 generation planes can also tame your F-16's and what not, no???

I actually dont see the picture grim at all, the picture is looking grim at the sea but not the air. PAF is buying exactly the weapons it needs to tame the IAF and rob its advantage. The force multipliers that PAF has acquired and constructing a proper C4I system is absolutely essential to rob any advantage the IAF at present enjoys. If you ask me, the future is actually looking bright for the PAF as these systems are acquired and put into operational use.

Good for you...No doubt PAF is improving her sorry state....

AIM120 Charlie cued up with JHMCS. Now thats a threat the IAF never had to worry about but its online now with PAF, they can target IAF jets from stand off ranges. In the past the PAF needed to get close in WVR to get a kill, now they can take shots from stand off ranges.

Isn't the same true for IAF??? However how many planes do you have which can participate in BVR??? Anyways first of all with nukes in picture i doubt that IAF and PAF will have a full go at each other....So in that context i think PAF is well convered but in pure conventional terms i have my doubts....

 

[MilSpec]

Aren't you wrong in comparing the cost of machine here???? Cost of the machine is a very very relative term, no??? If my economy is good i can very well afford to loose a costlier machine then my counterpart....I asked this question to another guy let me pose it to you as well....Who will have a bigger hit if IAF looses 18 MKI and PAF looses 18 Block 52??? Even though MKI are costlier i think IAF will happily agree for this kind of loss...what do you think????

Buddy you have ignored a very important aspect here...Induction is not good enough....MKI's were very well inducted before the Kargil war but they did not participate in it....guess why???? Also ou did not answer we are weak in comparison to whom???


Agree on this part....


As said if PAF is banking upon support from China as a hedge agains IAF then atleast to me this is not a good strategy...What is they did not fly those sorties???? Then do you think we will go with our full force???? And if yes then how will PAF respond????

I didn't want to coment on 18mki/18 f16's losses thing because i dont exactly know the right answer to this, but this is my take
IAF looses 18 MKI and PAF looses 18 Block 52, Negligible loss for IAF big loss for PAF, now lets play with these numbers

PAF looses 180 a/cs IAF looses 180 A/c's, IAF gains air superiority, who is at bigger loss after end of conflict?

Now say PAF looses its entire fleet with equal losses of IAF, India becomes sitting duck for PLAAF

Even if India wins an all out war with pakistan, still losses will be more for INDIA,

Induction is not good enough....MKI's were very well inducted before the Kargil, Also ou did not answer we are weak in comparison to whom???

Agreed, but still with "successful" LCAmk2 and MMRCA and full sqdn of operational 280 mki's, IAF will be in better state than now.hence it is at its weakest now. weakest in comparison to required strength to successfully win an all out confrontation with pakistan, or to ward off aggression from china. We need to maintain force levels large enough to successfully conduct and conclude the execution of envisioned doctrine of Indian military against Pakistan, and successful implementation of defense against china. So Indian forces levels are at lowest according to its own requirements for execution of its own doctrines set for specific needs.

China as a hedge

prepare for the worst, hope for the best

 

[GORKHALI]

My point is Why PAF answer to MMRCA ??WE are replacing Mig 27 and some earlier Mig 21 models.
PAF Only creadible strike aircraft is F16 that also in Uncle SAM mercy..
They are good and looks happy with JF 17,what else they want? Enough to defend.