PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[danger007]

so these were the points....

Mig-29s against JFT
MKI against F-16 Block 52s and JF-17 Block II
MMRCA against J-10B and JF-17 Block II/III.

please elaborate your points, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

JF-17 Block II/III . so now JF-17 going to shot down Typhoon too. i think JF-17 should be placed before Typhoon and after F-35.

 

[DARKY]

all MMRCA threads should be ban till agreement sign

And what are your opinions about JF-17 bock I/II/III/IV/X/XX/XXX and FC-20 and Imaginary China Stealth fighter, Tipu, Taimur, etc. ICBM threads.

 

[DARKY]

That is probably the most dumbest comment I have ever read on PDF. Perhaps in my life regarding aviation.

Don't understand whats dumb in this... a double engine fighter generally has higher T/W ratio, better climb, ceiling and kinematics performance as compared to a single engine fighter... even better electronics can be housed in them thanks to the better power output given by two engines... and here we are talking of JF-17 which have RD-93 a modified RD-33 for single engine plane while Mig 29 houses two RD-33s... which means it is as powerful as two JF-17.

 

[IND151]

IAF will not going for a F-18 rather it is F/A-18 Super hornets.



Setting of new infrastructure and associated is now a things of past and nothing but a old myth. Boeing has already collaborating with several Indian companies lncluding TATA’s to develop Spare parts for F/A-18 SH.



When one have the legacy of operating variety of aircraft of Russian, European, French as well as Indian then I don’t think above written is any big deal.



Even Price and huge cost per plane is now steadily becoming a thing of past, in current budget there is already provision for extra capital expenditure in the need of hour.

If one can shell out $1.05 billion for only 6 C-130 then MRCA deal is not a big issue.



India have its independent policy of containing its adversaries and it has following this policy quite successfully since its inception. Recent spicy statement of Indian Foreign minister to US of no need of guiding or Teaching India over its bilateral ties with Iran has already demonstrated this policy quite successfully.



How can they ban all exports of spares since all the spare parts including much tauted AESA will be produce in India under TOT agreement which has also got green signal from US then I can assure you that US would never try to do the mistakes of sanctioning spare parts with Economical prosperous country in the world.




But china didn’t caved in.



So banning of spares for PAF’s F-16 translate you banning of spares for Indian F/A-18 SH?



But India know how to deal with in this very black market quite brilliantly.



This is an old myth, that will never gona happen unless IAF fallen in love with MRCA like MKI.



This is very possible regarding the sale of Patriotic SAMS from US to maintain the balance in the region but seems highly unlikely as far as sophistication of Patriotic as well as budget of PAF.



Only three squadrons of those enough to counter F-18, how does it so?



I don’t need to go in detail about F-15, May be Pakistani members over here explain about viability in PAF fleet.




Best of luck for your exams.

very good post

This is an old myth, that will never gona happen unless IAF fallen in love with MRCA like MKI.

i don't agree.

MRCA winner will replace not only mig 23 but also mig 27.

there is clause in MRCA deal that if IAF is satisfied with the jet it can order 50% more fighter jets.

that is 189

 

[majesticpankaj]

of course not, despite being cheaper you insist that we are broke...
Was it an act of God that payed for F-16s?


any argument against Chinese aircraft or just the China tag comment?


in what way? as I recall, many developments from insiders indicated a high level of tech in the J-10B.
If the news about it is true,surely it's not over hyped.

not to forget how you folks cannot be the ones to speak, I've seen some guys comparing MKI to F-22, F-35, J-20, F15 Silent eagle... quote 'God's gift to aviation'



still no real argument just a bunch of baseless comments...
I invite you to prove me wrong.

*So what is your point ?? Indian enjoys the overwhelming air superiority over pakistan

*China products especially are untested and surely not superior to it's western counterpart .. hack the even export engines from russia

*J-10 B is again not operational and again it will take time to get maturity -- by having technology and using the technology are two different things.. maturity of a platform is important.

*what baseless argument ?? as you people are poor in maths you forget the numbers and simply rants that PAF will take care of IAF without giving any solid argument and goes into defensive like PAF's doctrine of defence.

all the airbases of pakistan are near to border -- you do not have the depth

 

[farhan_9909]

DARKY@

read my signature

 

[SQ8]

Don't understand whats dumb in this... a double engine fighter generally has higher T/W ratio, better climb, ceiling and kinematics performance as compared to a single engine fighter... even better electronics can be housed in them thanks to the better power output given by two engines... and here we are talking of JF-17 which have RD-93 a modified RD-33 for single engine plane while Mig 29 houses two RD-33s... which means it is as powerful as two JF-17.

Generally no.. that would be incorrect.. but true in the case of the mig-29 and Jf-17.
However.. it is not as powerful as two JF-17's.. It may have twice the engine thrust as a JF, but it also has a lot more to push around than a JF.
Your statement for generalization may fall flat since the F-135 can provide a lot more power output than any two Ge-404's.
The only possible truth for that statement may lie if we assume both engines are the same.
For eg.. it is logical that the two Al-31's on a flanker variant provide more power output than the single one on a J-10.
Although I wonder, with AESA radar's entering the field.. is that much power really required??

 

[majesticpankaj]

I have to say it

60+ vintage sanctioned prone f-16 + 26 jf-17 made in china jets is not equal to 150+ mkis

the scenario would be of 2:1 .. take your pick

 

[IND151]

DARKY@

read my signature
I agree india will have edge over pakistan in quality/quantity of aircrafts/Equipments bt they cannot import pilots from russia/israel..

this is my response

i agree that PAF has superb pilots but can not import competent leaders from US/China.

 

[DARKY]

Generally no.. that would be incorrect.. but true in the case of the mig-29 and Jf-17.
However.. it is not as powerful as two JF-17's.. It may have twice the engine thrust as a JF, but it also has a lot more to push around than a JF.
Your statement for generalization may fall flat since the F-135 can provide a lot more power output than any two Ge-404's.
The only possible truth for that statement may lie if we assume both engines are the same.
For eg.. it is logical that the two Al-31's on a flanker variant provide more power output than the single one on a J-10.
Although I wonder, with AESA radar's entering the field.. is that much power really required??

Roughly equal in JFT case....
Yes the single engine variant is tweaked to give better performances however that makes it maintenance intensive... every one knows what happened to Al-31 variants on J-10s...
And I did the generalization on the basis of same size one can always tweak the core temperature a bit...make larger blades and get higher output... but that makes the engine heavier and larger than the original one... use composites.. same can be done on double engine planes...
AESA makes it easier to track while scan and scan and spot more and track then equally good thanks to many small T/R modules... however to track the longer ranged targets one still need a power AESA which means more power consuming T/R modules... at time an AESA consumes more power than the pulse Doppler mechanically steered Radar.

 

[MilSpec]

Which Air-force can afford higher losses???? Why would IAF be different from any other counterpart???? Look as said before the threat is same irrespective of the number of fighters taking part in the war...I fail to see logic in loosing the objective at the cost of keeping the losses down...Well i fail to see that if a higher number of fighters cannot do the job then how come less number will do???? In otherwords why even bother to enter their Air-space then????

It's simple, Indian losses will be costlier, because we operate more expensive machines, simple logic. About PAF losses, there fight is to defend there airspace, so thier efforts are relatively easier.

If India is at its weakest strength right now then not sure how even in next 6-7 years anything will change...Are you saying the moment India will get her first MMRCA fighter we will master it and become powerful???? b/w why do you think we are weak right now??? Also weak in comparison to whom????

No, 4-6 years will see induction of LCA mk2, around 36 (HAL)MKI's, and around 50 additional, russian MKI's, 30-36 super 30 upgrades and atleast 2-3 sqdns of MMRCA, along with larger deployment of Akash and barak2 systems. If LCA mk2 project turns out what it's conceived to be, then rest assured for larger number of deployment will occur. This will increase two crucial roles, Ability of supporting multiple air interdiction strike packages and higher air defense sorties to secure our assets from counter attacks.

Look at the IAF current lineup, M2K , M29SMT and MKI's are all air superiority fighters masquerading as multirole strikers, mig 21 bisons have been the backbone for point defence role, LCA mk2 will take on this mantle along with forward CAS and point defencee roles.

IAF is at its lowest sqdn strength, if there is conflict tomorrow, and say china as a support to the PAF's war effort decides to just flying patrol sorties near the eastern border, we will have to divert our work force to the east, which will reduce the full potential to operate frontline strike a/cs. If say in next ten years say there are around 400 LCA mk2 to ensure safety of Indian airspace, our other platforms can engage the enemy in their own territory, hence success of LCA is very crucial.

 

[DARKY]

DARKY@

read my signature

Kya baat hae sir G... I am your fan from now on....

 

[IND151]

ToT on AESA is NOT Happening. HAL will get the radars and they would put them on the aircraft with guidance from the US sources. This is the way things have been done with the Turks and Scandinavian countries and I see nothing exceptional being done here for the Indians...I think some of our Indian friends are getting a bit carried away by the US offer.

Having stated the above, IAF can, like PAF absorb US aircraft. It will take some more time but again its not out of question as they have always flown European aircraft if not American.

F/A-18 would be a threat greater than the Su-30MKI simply owing to the fact that serviceability on the Super Hornets would be much higher than the MKI and the Hornets are a much more proven MR platform than the MKIs. In WVR, F-16s are equal or better than the F/A-18s and with JHMCS on both, it would be about equal.

In the BVR arena, if IAF receives AIM-120Ds, PAF by that time would also have the same or even before the IAF receives them for as long as the relations stay as they are between Pakistan and the US.

On a side note, IAF really have no idea what a difference an American aircraft would make. They are singing praises about the MKI now, but if either the F-16 or the Super Hornet was inducted in the IAF, they would start looking at the Russian aircraft a bit differently after appreciating the serviceability, support and capability of the US aircraft. Without a doubt, US aircraft are a better bang for the buck in the long run.

PAF knows this well thus will be worried about the induction of the F/A-18 within the IAF.

true that US fighters are sophisticated.

they are very advanced and their maintenance is easy.

but Russian fighters have brute force: bigger radar, more range

also they are cheaper than US fighters.

so for quantity IAF will use mig 29, SU 30, mig 29 K

for quality IAF will use Mirage 2000, MRCA winner, super MKI( having ability to use western weapons), FGFA

 

[IND151]

Kya baat hae sir G... I am your fan from now on....

see post number 1149

 

[GURU DUTT]

true that US fighters are sophisticated.

they are very advanced and their maintenance is easy.

but Russian fighters have brute force: bigger radar, more range

also they are cheaper than US fighters.
so for quantity IAF will use mig 29, SU 30, mig 29 K

for quality IAF will use Mirage 2000, MRCA winner, super MKI( having ability to use western weapons), FGFA

This part reminds me of a comaero between a german sports car(was cheaper,easy on maintanence &very powerful-in short a elegant &dependable pakage) & a lamborghini Diablo (brutish power,great stearing &very good sounding silencers in short-a hairy chested feel) & believe me lambo won because the buyers of this catagory are not much bothered about cost but that "hairy chested feel" so sir did you got my POINT, Thanks .