PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[Bossman]

Hot off the press. So much for castles in the air.

An Indian contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders could be worth $20bn, almost double the original estimate, according to the government.

The defence ministry revised up its initial $11bn estimate after reviewing bids from the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and France’s Dassault, the maker of the Rafale aircraft, a ministry official told the Financial Times.

 

[Storm Force]

There rumours in india defense circles that INDIA may increase the purchase to 189 fighters from the beginning RATHER than 126 FIRST WITH A follow up in 2020

Their thinking is to drive unit price right down with a HUGE purchase

HENCE $20 BILLION DEAL RUMOURS TODAY

PS #

Rumours also that Typhoon came in at $100m each or $12.6 billion for 126 jets.

And rafale was round $11 billion for 126 jets

 

[notorious_eagle]

Next you can say the same for Bangladesh, Nepal and Sir Lanka even.. all had or have some or the other land or sea boundary dispute against India and India has never used any force against them so even these countries are an equal match for India according to your BS theory.

India is not using force against Bangladesh, every other day the BSF kills a Bengali civilian and that according to you is not force. Try asking that question on the Bangladesh section and see what types of responses you get or ask the same question to the families of those whom have lost loved ones.

Seems to me that your memory is very young as India did intervene with military muscle in Sri Lanka under Rajiv Gandhi's. Thats a different story that India lost 1100 soldiers without accomplishing any of its tasks, but the fact of the matter is India did intervene with guns. India also sent paratroopers in Maldives during the 80's to keep Maldives interests aligned with that of India. Now whether she did the right thing or not by sending military force, that is to be discussed in another topic but dont you dare say that India does not uses military force on her neighbours. Clearly i can see that you are at loss of facts and refuse to accept any facts that is contrary to your way of thinking. So do some research before you blabber your mouth as you have made yourself look like a fool so many times on this forum.

What Doctrine, Strategy, and Cohesive force are you talking of here all we can see here is that you are trying to match number with numbers... planes with planes.

If you cant answer that than its not worth my time to even post a response, clearly you dont do your research but still pretend to be an expert when your clearly not. You made a fool out yourself on the Brahmos thread and are making a fool out yourself over here on this thread. So stop trolling as we are getting deviated from the topic

 

[Jungibaaz]

I am not underestimating it's capabilities but you can't deny the fact that a aircraft takes atleast 6 years to achieve it's full capabilities and again it is made in china

made in China? so what..... please elaborate buddy, you have issues with Chinese aircraft or are you referring to the usual rant about Chinese products....?

I wish you all the best but jf-17 -2 against MCRA is too much to ask considering that we will be having 272 su 30 mki and 45 naval version mig along with upgrded aircrafts

Yes, I'm sure during war, IAF will move all of it's fighters to our border, we will line our jets up and shoot each other, one shot at a time, team with the highest number of planes and shots wins...

very very naive view of warfare. FC-20, JF-17 Block 1-2 and F-16 Block 52 are enough to deal with the threat posed by IAF, together with AWACS.

PAF needs not match IAF, all it requires is to deny the enemy air superiority, it can do that.

Dear friends -- you need to contact santro to understand the meaning of sanctioned prone-- how many sorties F-16 can make without spares ??

not many...

think of these as a stop gap, 18 F-16 Block 52s new and MLU.
They wont make up the bulk of PAF, they are good birds, pretty formidable, but given JF-17 and FC-20, PAF wont have to rely on F-16s as much.

With that said, i can say now that PAF made the wrong decision to go with F-16s, in hind-sight they'd say that too, but you are blowing out of proportion.

I was talking about the f-16 block 52-- you have only 18 of them

I think he meant to count up the MLU too.

 

[Jungibaaz]

so these were the points....

Mig-29s against JFT
MKI against F-16 Block 52s and JF-17 Block II
MMRCA against J-10B and JF-17 Block II/III.

please elaborate your points, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Pragmatically there is no answers to MCRA because pakistan can't afford it in next 10 years

of course not, despite being cheaper you insist that we are broke...
Was it an act of God that payed for F-16s?

JF-17 is a cheap, untested plane with a made in china tag

any argument against Chinese aircraft or just the China tag comment?

j-10B is another over hyped plane especially on PDF which will take 5-6 years to get operational.

in what way? as I recall, many developments from insiders indicated a high level of tech in the J-10B.
If the news about it is true,surely it's not over hyped.

not to forget how you folks cannot be the ones to speak, I've seen some guys comparing MKI to F-22, F-35, J-20, F15 Silent eagle... quote 'God's gift to aviation'

Period

still no real argument just a bunch of baseless comments...
I invite you to prove me wrong.

 

[Jungibaaz]

You will attack with JF-17 and J-10 ?

PAF's role in combat would me mostly defensive, so no.....

If you attack, All will be destroyed in front of MKI.

really? okay so an F-16 Block 52 would loose in front of an MKI? under most scenarios it's anybody's game, most combat between IAF and PAF would be under the max detect and fire ranges of both the MKI and Block 52.

Put AWACS in the equation and MKI's radar advantage is neutralized.

Even Mirage M2k, MIG29 and Jaguar will be more than enough.

Good luck.... any argument to back that up or just pure poetry?

Rafale/Typhoon will be too big for Pakistan.

126 MMRCA cost more than PAF total assets.

Rafale and Typhoon will likely be dealt with by J-10B and JF-17's final variant.
again so far we cannot say anything regarding this but I'd like to know your arguments as to why you think MMRCA would beat any possible fighter of the PAF (future).

p.s. if you have a crystal ball and the ability to see in to the future i.e. about J-10B, please let us know, we are itching for info.

100 MKI will be more than enough for PAF and we will have 300 odd MKI.

60+ F-16 52s, Hundreds more FC-20 and JF-17 Block I/II/II and AWACS waiting on the other side, don't forget ground radars and SAMs too.

Problem?

 

[deckingraj]

Yes, I'm sure during war, IAF will move all of it's fighters to our border, we will line our jets up and shoot each other, one shot at a time, team with the highest number of planes and shots wins...

very very naive view of warfare.

So how many planes you think IAF will use in case push comes to shove??? It is quite funny to think that PAF would pull all its planes to fight but IAF will not???? I don't need to bring all my planes at one go but every single plane in IAF will participate in the war...In the same token every single plane in PAF inventory will not be air-borne at the same time to defend PAk air-space...

You are seriously underscoring the number of sorties that IAF would pull from the beast like MKI's and the kind of pressure it will put on your 4 generation planes which are quiet a few in numbers....secondly a defensive Air-force does not mean that PAF job is just to keep IAF off Pak air-space....Look in the history and you will see that PAF used the same tactic of killing IAF numerical advantage by hurting the IAF operational capability....Missiles are on both sides so let's not go there....

Keep in mind that i am not saying PAF don't stand a chance...just trying to show that picture is looking grim...but then i am a layman in this field...so you may know much more than what i know...

FC-20, JF-17 Block 1-2 and F-16 Block 52 are enough to deal with the threat posed by IAF, together with AWACS.

PAF needs not match IAF, all it requires is to deny the enemy air superiority, it can do that.

You got to have something out there which can simply change the battle in your favor...I fail to see what is that....it would be great if u can tell....

not many...

think of these as a stop gap, 18 F-16 Block 52s new and MLU.
They wont make up the bulk of PAF, they are good birds, pretty formidable, but given JF-17 and FC-20, PAF wont have to rely on F-16s as much.

With that said, i can say now that PAF made the wrong decision to go with F-16s, in hind-sight they'd say that too, but you are blowing out of proportion.

I think he meant to count up the MLU too.

I was under the impression that F-16 is your best plane...is it not the case any longer????

 

[Jungibaaz]

So how many planes you think IAF will use in case push comes to shove??? It is quite funny to think that PAF would pull all its planes to fight but IAF will not???? I don't need to bring all my planes at one go but every single plane in IAF will participate in the war...In the same token every single plane in PAF inventory will not be air-borne at the same time to defend PAk air-space...

Just the reply I expected, do you know how an air force operates during war....?
the different roles assigned? There is no threat to PAF other then IAF, PAF has built up it's airforce with only IAF in mind, we can afford to loose all if it means we deny you air superiorirty, however if you loose too much, you have a much bigger and more powerful neighbor to worry about, IAF wouldn't be as daft as throw all it's got on PAF, given the scenarios, IAF would sustain heavy losses in Pakistani airspace. But PAF's role ebign defensive will also be heavy in terms of

You are seriously underscoring the number of sorties that IAF would pull from the beast like MKI's and the kind of pressure it will put on your 4 generation planes which are quiet a few in numbers....secondly a defensive Air-force does not mean that PAF job is just to keep IAF off Pak air-space....Look in the history and you will see that PAF used the same tactic of killing IAF numerical advantage by hurting the IAF operational capability....Missiles are on both sides so let's not go there....

No I am not underestimating that, I know of the Superior numbers, but given most scenarios, PAF is prepared for just that.
lets not forget SAMs and ground radars they play a part too.

and as for PAF's role, I said 'mainly' defensive, SEAD ops might happen as before. But overall PAF's role will be to deny the enemy air superiority.

Keep in mind that i am not saying PAF don't stand a chance...just trying to show that picture is looking grim...but then i am a layman in this field...so you may know much more than what i know...

Now, this is the bit of my words that confuses people, they think that I compare IAF and PAF fighters in an open world with complete nothingness, no borders no range of combat, no other factors but the birds themselves,

but if you put it into context with the likely encounters between IAF and PAF birds, PAF can defend it self, very well in Pakistani airspace.

You got to have something out there which can simply change the battle in your favor...I fail to see what is that....it would be great if u can tell....

In your case MKI is bulk of the threat? correct?

Well lets just paint a scenario here....

F-16 Block 52 vs MKI.

Both BVR capable platforms.
MKI has a radar advantage (nullified by PAF AWACS)
F-16 has an RCS advantage (somewhat nullified by a good weapons load)
Range of encounters would likely be well within their detection and fire ranges of each other.

You can manipulate those scenarios the same way IAF and PAF would to get maximum advantage..... it's anybody's game.

I was under the impression that F-16 is your best plane...is it not the case any longer????

For now, JF-17 Block II/III and FC-20 should change that.

 

[MilSpec]

Pakistan has ample resources and clout to procure chinese aircraft which will provide deterrence to most of IAF acquisitions. the onus is on India to maintain significant advantage by starting inductions on a war-footing.

the most important aircraft in my opinion is the LCA mk2. If this aircraft project is sucessful, then MMCRA, MKI, SMT's , M2K's can effectively engage PAF in PAF airspace provided LCA mk2's are inducted in large numbers to provide point defence and forward CAS roles along with mig 27's and jags.

A successful N-LCA will also provide bigger strike advantage to M29K's by offsetting fleet defense roles.

Along with MMRCA as a stop gap we should have ordered at least 150 Mig 35's. it would have provided a much needed boost in sqdn strength

 

[MilSpec]

Just the reply I expected, do you know how an air force operates during war....?
the different roles assigned? There is no threat to PAF other then IAF, PAF has built up it's airforce with only IAF in mind, we can afford to loose all if it means we deny you air superiorirty, however if you loose too much, you have a much bigger and more powerful neighbor to worry about, IAF wouldn't be as daft as throw all it's got on PAF, given the scenarios, IAF would sustain heavy losses in Pakistani airspace. But PAF's role ebign defensive will also be heavy in terms of



No I am not underestimating that, I know of the Superior numbers, but given most scenarios, PAF is prepared for just that.
lets not forget SAMs and ground radars they play a part too.

and as for PAF's role, I said 'mainly' defensive, SEAD ops might happen as before. But overall PAF's role will be to deny the enemy air superiority.



Now, this is the bit of my words that confuses people, they think that I compare IAF and PAF fighters in an open world with complete nothingness, no borders no range of combat, no other factors but the birds themselves,

but if you put it into context with the likely encounters between IAF and PAF birds, PAF can defend it self, very well in Pakistani airspace.



In your case MKI is bulk of the threat? correct?

Well lets just paint a scenario here....

F-16 Block 52 vs MKI.

Both BVR capable platforms.
MKI has a radar advantage (nullified by PAF AWACS)
F-16 has an RCS advantage (somewhat nullified by a good weapons load)
Range of encounters would likely be well withing their detection and fire ranges of each other.

You can manipulate those scenarios the same way IAF and PAF would to get maximum advantage..... it's anybody's game.


For now, JF-17 Block II/III and FC-20 should change that.

I completely agree with the air combat doctrine you have mentioned, india cannot afford higher losses.

IMHO, IAF right now is at weakest strength, and i dont see it drastically changing in next 3 years.

just to point out about awacs advantage, i think MKi's are also complimented by AWACS which have larger detection radius and is integrated with m2k's and m29's as well.

Now looking at pakistans acquisitions of j17blII and FC20, obviously PAF will get some serious teeth, but are these acquisitions to raise newer sqdn to add to the strength or to replace obsolescence

 

[deckingraj]

Just the reply I expected, do you know how an air force operates during war....?

As said i am a layman in this field...but i strongly believe i am not stupid...b/w are you a veteran or in Air-force????

the different roles assigned? There is no threat to PAF other then IAF, PAF has built up it's airforce with only IAF in mind, we can afford to loose all if it means we deny you air superiorirty, however if you loose too much, you have a much bigger and more powerful neighbor to worry about,

You are referring to China....Now let's get one thing clear...if i am in war with Pakistan then that is my priority...There is lot of room in geo-politics to take care of China, moreover geo-graphy too give us room to breath....Having said that let me repeat again to what i said....Each and every plane in IAF inventory will participate should push come to shove....If at all you are banking on reserves for China then you are making a mistake....

IAF wouldn't be as daft as throw all it's got on PAF, given the scenarios, IAF would sustain heavy losses in Pakistani airspace.

No denying the fact that there would be losses....Heavy or not is debatable....If IAF is playing the role of aggressor then this is the risk they have to take....Danger is going to be same irrespective of how many fighters are going to be used...I don't see any sense of not achieving what you are after just for the fear of loosing too many....If IAF play with that mindset then don't you think we have already lost the battle????

No I am not underestimating that, I know of the Superior numbers, but given most scenarios, PAF is prepared for just that.
lets not forget SAMs and ground radars they play a part too.

I am not denying your SAM threat....However what you are ignoring is the shear number of 4 generation fighters that are BVR capable on both sides....Forget about which one is better but just look at the numbers....This is defintely not healthy gap....

and as for PAF's role, I said 'mainly' defensive, SEAD ops might happen as before. But overall PAF's role will be to deny the enemy air superiority.

This is what i am saying....With already limited number of fighters not only you have to defend against massive number of sorties by IAF but also have to attack...means further strain....

Now, this is the bit of my words that confuses people, they think that I compare IAF and PAF fighters in an open world with complete nothingness, no borders no range of combat, no other factors but the birds themselves,

but if you put it into context with the likely encounters between IAF and PAF birds, PAF can defend it self, very well in Pakistani airspace.

Sir, you have to make something as a bench mark.....I am not ignoring the important fact put in front by you...but border's, range of combat etc etc are not tangent...They are the same to what we had back in 60's and 70's....Tangent part is what technology you possess and in what numbers...no????

In your case MKI is bulk of the threat? correct?

Well lets just paint a scenario here....

F-16 Block 52 vs MKI.

Both BVR capable platforms.
MKI has a radar advantage (nullified by PAF AWACS)
F-16 has an RCS advantage (somewhat nullified by a good weapons load)
Range of encounters would likely be well within their detection and fire ranges of each other.

You can manipulate those scenarios the same way IAF and PAF would to get maximum advantage..... it's anybody's game.

You are right..its anybody game...However IAF loosing 18 MKI vs PAF loosing 18 F-16 Block 52.. who do you think will get the bigger hit???? Please understand not once i have challenged or claimed that our fighters are better than yours...All i am saying is that shear number of sorties that 4 generation planes will take from IAF side is going to be masssive...This is the threat that i am talking about....

For now, JF-17 Block II/III and FC-20 should change that.

Ohh ok...I was talking about right now....Thanks for the clarification...

 

[deckingraj]

I completely agree with the air combat doctrine you have mentioned, india cannot afford higher losses.

Which Air-force can afford higher losses???? Why would IAF be different from any other counterpart???? Look as said before the threat is same irrespective of the number of fighters taking part in the war...I fail to see logic in loosing the objective at the cost of keeping the losses down...Well i fail to see that if a higher number of fighters cannot do the job then how come less number will do???? In otherwords why even bother to enter their Air-space then????

IMHO, IAF right now is at weakest strength, and i dont see it drastically changing in next 3 years.

If India is at its weakest strength right now then not sure how even in next 6-7 years anything will change...Are you saying the moment India will get her first MMRCA fighter we will master it and become powerful???? b/w why do you think we are weak right now??? Also weak in comparison to whom????

just to point out about awacs advantage, i think MKi's are also complimented by AWACS which have larger detection radius and is integrated with m2k's and m29's as well.

Now looking at pakistans acquisitions of j17blII and FC20, obviously PAF will get some serious teeth, but are these acquisitions to raise newer sqdn to add to the strength or to replace obsolescence

Even if it is for replacing obsolescence it still is going to be a welcome step for PAF....A genunie 4 generation fighter act as a force multiplier...so it will add more muscle to PAF even if it acts as a replacement...

 

[deckingraj]

Pakistan has ample resources and clout to procure chinese aircraft which will provide deterrence to most of IAF acquisitions. the onus is on India to maintain significant advantage by starting inductions on a war-footing.

Ample resources??? Man typically we don't agree but this is one aspect that both Indian's and Pakistani's agree that PAF don't have ample resources....Yes China do provide things to PAF on soft loans but saying that they have ample resources is too much of an exaggeration...

Secondly India needs to induct on war-footing just to off balance the massive gap viz-a-viz China....We don't need to induct LCA in large numbers to defend our Air-Space from PAF....Feel free to correct me...i am always open for constructive feedback..

Regards..

 

[notorious_eagle]

So how many planes you think IAF will use in case push comes to shove??? It is quite funny to think that PAF would pull all its planes to fight but IAF will not????

The IAF needs atleast 2 or 3 squadrons stationed near the border against China to protect its flank and every sign points to the fact that IAF will station these many squadrons near the Chinese border even if a full scale shooting war breaks out between India and Pakistan. For its initial attack, IAF needs to assign its aircrafts into three categories: Air Superiority, Air Defence and CAS. As the IAF assigns its numbers into these three tasks, your numerical superiority will fade.

I don't need to bring all my planes at one go but every single plane in IAF will participate in the war...In the same token every single plane in PAF inventory will not be air-borne at the same time to defend PAk air-space...

I have my doubts if every single IAF plane will participate in the war, there is no way in hell the IAF can achieve 100% operational rate. For most modern Western Air Forces 70-80% is considered a good number, there is no way the IAF will be fielding 100% of its inventory in the air. Russian aircrafts are maintenance nightmares and are known to require extensive overhaul, this will slow down the amount of aircrafts that can be launched in the air as they will be going through overhauls.

You are seriously underscoring the number of sorties that IAF would pull from the beast like MKI's and the kind of pressure it will put on your 4 generation planes which are quiet a few in numbers....

The MKI is known as a maintenance nightmare and will not be generating a lot of sorties, you can mark my words for that. It can definitely carry out long missions thats for sure but there is no way it generate high amount of sorties. Once again the main work horse is going to be the M2K's that are known for their high sortie rates and easy operational requirements. PAF does not need 4th Generation aircrafts to tame the MKI, just the right tactics and the necessary force multipliers will do the job.

secondly a defensive Air-force does not mean that PAF job is just to keep IAF off Pak air-space....Look in the history and you will see that PAF used the same tactic of killing IAF numerical advantage by hurting the IAF operational capability....Missiles are on both sides so let's not go there....

No doubt about that, PAF will try to hit as many FOB's and bases that are within its range.

Keep in mind that i am not saying PAF don't stand a chance...just trying to show that picture is looking grim...but then i am a layman in this field...so you may know much more than what i know...

I actually dont see the picture grim at all, the picture is looking grim at the sea but not the air. PAF is buying exactly the weapons it needs to tame the IAF and rob its advantage. The force multipliers that PAF has acquired and constructing a proper C4I system is absolutely essential to rob any advantage the IAF at present enjoys. If you ask me, the future is actually looking bright for the PAF as these systems are acquired and put into operational use.

You got to have something out there which can simply change the battle in your favor...I fail to see what is that....it would be great if u can tell....

AIM120 Charlie cued up with JHMCS. Now thats a threat the IAF never had to worry about but its online now with PAF, they can target IAF jets from stand off ranges. In the past the PAF needed to get close in WVR to get a kill, now they can take shots from stand off ranges.

I was under the impression that F-16 is your best plane...is it not the case any longer????

Not till the FC20 comes online