PAF's First Aggressor Unit TDS

[Incog_nito]

So, is PAF expecting some 30-40 Su-35s for this Unit?

 

[MastanKhan]

the doctrine change is limited to the the shoulder patch
cynicism aside


airforces by nature are always aggressive in their defense they would cross border and take out any potential target before it becomes a danger, look 65, 71 air raids on Indian bases for example.


thanks for sharing Gambit
I recall a PAF officer saying to a new F-16 pilot that there are no runner -ups in the air war

Mastan sahib, sometimes it helps to refer to history.... first F-16s were delivered to PAF in Jan-1983....whereas the first Mirage-2000 wasn't introduced into French Air force until 1984.....during Kargil neither airforce crossed into the other's airspace to attack the other side as such actions would mean an open declaration of war....and if F-16 are the best gift from our enemy then one wonders why a mere 8 aircraft were cause of such heartburn....surely our enemy didn't think the would be used to transport Beef.

Mirage 2000
Role Multirole fighter
National origin France
Manufacturer Dassault Aviation
First flight 10 March 1978[1]
Introduction July 1984
Status In service
Primary users French Air Force
United Arab Emirates Air Force
Republic of China Air Force
Indian Air Force

Mastan sahib, sometimes it helps to refer to history.... first F-16s were delivered to PAF in Jan-1983....whereas the first Mirage-2000 wasn't introduced into French Air force until 1984.....during Kargil neither airforce crossed into the other's airspace to attack the other side as such actions would mean an open declaration of war....and if F-16 are the best gift from our enemy then one wonders why a mere 8 aircraft were cause of such heartburn....surely our enemy didn't think the would be used to transport Beef.

Mirage 2000
Role Multirole fighter
National origin France
Manufacturer Dassault Aviation
First flight 10 March 1978[1]
Introduction July 1984
Status In service
Primary users French Air Force
United Arab Emirates Air Force
Republic of China Air Force
Indian Air Force

Youngman,

You are so innocent---and that tears me up---. You really really think that 8 aircraft would upset the enemy that much---. Is this your real belief---then it is a farce---.

8 aircraft are nothing---the enemy does not even want you to breath---these are just a wisp of air to keep your struggling body in a semi comatose state---.

The enemy has always made it more than what it is---first to make idiots out of young pakistanis---who really begin to believe that they have become something---.

Pakistan air force needs a shot of MORPHINE---the 8 BLK52's were like a 250 mg aspirin tablet---and the enemy propaganda does not even want you to have that aspirin---that is what it is---that is what those 8 aircraft equivalent to---a 250 mg aspirin.

And I used to think that you had the ability to understand.

Paf did not need the F16's in 1983---the mirage's were capable of doing the needed job---the F16's were for show and strut---.

Paf was told to go for the send option---ie the M2K's so that the issue of sanctions don't effect---.

Just look at the air force now---every jack *** who has a little common sense knew that the american sanctions were coming for the last 5 years and still the Paf generals were talking about getting the F16's---.

 

[gambit]

It is modeled after the USAF Fighter Weapons School program.

Used to be that. Today it is 'Weapons School'. The idea is to have a more comprehensive leadership and technical training program for everyone, not just fighter pilots. If you are a C-130 pilot, Weapons School will show you how to maximize that platform.

http://www.littlerock.af.mil/News/A...eapons-instructor-course-celebrates-20-years/

The C-130 Weapons Instructor Course celebrates its 20-year anniversary June 24, 2016, at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada. The course, as some say, is a leadership course disguised as a tactics course.

Note the highlighted.

Even non flying duties are included...

http://www.af.mil/News/Article-Disp...l-jtac-graduates-to-receive-hallowed-patches/

The point for the Weapons School is to make everyone understand that ultimately, your job is a weapon, and in combat, integration with other weapons systems is crucial.

 

[Raider 21]

Youngman,

You are so innocent---and that tears me up---. You really really think that 8 aircraft would upset the enemy that much---. Is this your real belief---then it is a farce---.

8 aircraft are nothing---the enemy does not even want you to breath---these are just a wisp of air to keep your struggling body in a semi comatose state---.

The enemy has always made it more than what it is---first to make idiots out of young pakistanis---who really begin to believe that they have become something---.

Pakistan air force needs a shot of MORPHINE---the 8 BLK52's were like a 250 mg aspirin tablet---and the enemy propaganda does not even want you to have that aspirin---that is what it is---that is what those 8 aircraft equivalent to---a 250 mg aspirin.

And I used to think that you had the ability to understand.

Paf did not need the F16's in 1983---the mirage's were capable of doing the needed job---the F16's were for show and strut---.

Paf was told to go for the send option---ie the M2K's so that the issue of sanctions don't effect---.

Just look at the air force now---every jack *** who has a little common sense knew that the american sanctions were coming for the last 5 years and still the Paf generals were talking about getting the F16's---.

Mirages and F-6s couldn't do anything significant. They were used to complement the CAPs with the F-16s....it was the best option at the time despite the C/D model being out around that timeline. 2-2.5 hours CAP mission on F-16s were easily achieved as opposed to the 1-1.5 hours on the Mirages and F-6s. The pilots logbooks speak for the flying time....

 

[SQ8]

LOL that Happens After 2 times thrashing in cope India

Where Even Mig-21 bison Made kill Of F-16s

Bring up cope India where a regular F-15 unit was put under restrictive conditions to go against India's best and had a draw- typical Indian feel good

 

[MastanKhan]

Mirages and F-6s couldn't do anything significant. They were used to complement the CAPs with the F-16s....it was the best option at the time despite the C/D model being out around that timeline. 2-2.5 hours CAP mission on F-16s were easily achieved as opposed to the 1-1.5 hours on the Mirages and F-6s. The pilots logbooks speak for the flying time....

Hi,

So which Paf aircraft took out the first russian aircrafts in afg---?

 

[Arsalan 345]

members introduction me mra thread he kindly sub use purh len.bhat shukriya

 

[John Reese]

Bring up cope India where a regular F-15 unit was put under restrictive conditions to go against India's best and had a draw- typical Indian feel good

Isn't All training Exercises Including Red-flag Is not Like that

 

[CriticalThought]

Bring up cope India where a regular F-15 unit was put under restrictive conditions to go against India's best and had a draw- typical Indian feel good

Array sir he is not worth your valuable time. But if you're looking for time pass don't let me stop you

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

So, is PAF expecting some 30-40 Su-35s for this Unit?

If there is another off-the-shelf fighter purchase, this TDS unit could get 4-6 aircraft.

That said, if the PAF is truly planning to take that route, then the best way to do it would be to arm the TDS with the Typhoon T3 armed with the MBDA Meteor and IRIS-T connected to Link-16 with an Erieye. Basically, throw a sink or two at the JF-17 units.

 

[ziaulislam]

After 35 years of service, you are now doing well to criticize those F-16s.
The bitter truth is that the F-16 has been the saving grace of PAF....and if we didn't have these F-16s in 80s and 90s and during Swat operation....then you would understand the meaning of getting Fuucck......

point mastan is bringing is whether it was worth paying billion of dollars and than just getting 36 f-16 from 1983 to 2005 that too without a bvrs

now we had a golden period where we got 14+18+13 more f-16s and upgraded them and got BVrs too but imagine that not happening imagine mushi not coming in power and not pushing hard for that..than what 32 f-16s, non functional without upgrade or BVRs would have done for us??(at cost billions of dollars!!!)

so looking retrospectively i believe the mirage2000 would have been better deal for time period between 1980s to 2005 and now since, i dont expect america releasing more f-16s while mirage 2000 albeit used, would have been available today

on technical aspects yes f-16 is much cheaper to operate and much better, but keeping geopolitical aspects it wasnt
pak army going for more f-16s in 2005 wasnt wrong decision(given congress was paying for portion of upgrades and 14 embargo were delivered), but it was wrong to go for them in late 80s

 

[Raider 21]

point mastan is bringing is whether it was worth paying billion of dollars and than just getting 36 f-16 from 1983 to 2005 that too without a bvrs

now we had a golden period where we got 14+18+13 more f-16s and upgraded them and got BVrs too but imagine that not happening imagine mushi not coming in power and not pushing hard for that..than what 32 f-16s, non functional without upgrade or BVRs would have done for us??(at cost billions of dollars!!!)

so looking retrospectively i believe the mirage2000 would have been better deal for time period between 1980s to 2005 and now since, i dont expect america releasing more f-16s while mirage 2000 albeit used, would have been available today

on technical aspects yes f-16 is much cheaper to operate and much better, but keeping geopolitical aspects it wasnt
pak army going for more f-16s in 2005 wasnt wrong decision(given congress was paying for portion of upgrades and 14 embargo were delivered), but it was wrong to go for them in late 80s

BVR was offered in terms of Sparrow.....PAF wanted AMRAAMS, which back then was only sold to a few countries.

 

[ghazi768]

In terms of BVR then yes (France were more lenient despite the AIM-7 Sparrow offered from the US), in terms of maintenance costs....then that wouldn't have had the same level of operational status like the F-16s at that time (source : PAF F-16 (2nd batch trained in the US) & Mirage 2000-5 evaluation pilot). Irrespective of the decisions taken......the F-16 in PAF service is something that has worried the Indian AF a good number of times, otherwise they wouldn't be screaming so much at Congress when it comes to the sale of brand new Vipers or 3rd hand Vipers from Jordan to PAF.

Just my opinion, 530D/F are absolutely no match with AIM-120C.

 

[Windjammer]

Mirages and F-6s couldn't do anything significant. They were used to complement the CAPs with the F-16s....it was the best option at the time despite the C/D model being out around that timeline. 2-2.5 hours CAP mission on F-16s were easily achieved as opposed to the 1-1.5 hours on the Mirages and F-6s. The pilots logbooks speak for the flying time....

Mastan sahib is a senior and respectful member hence i don't like to contradict him.
From the period of Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, despite Mirages and F-6s flying constant CAPs, no worthwhile success was achieved against intruding Afghan/Soviet aircraft....mostly because they adopted hit 'n' run tactics....not until an F-16 managed to shoot down an SU-22 in May 1986....and all subsequent a dozen or so kills were also achieved by the Fighting Falcons.




17 May 1986 Sqn. Ldr. A. Hameed Qadri
No. 9 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
(S. No. 82-723)

PAF Sargodha 2 Soviet/Afghan Su-22s Shot down both Su-22s in a single sortie 16,000 ft. over Parachinar, Pakistan. 1 AIM-9L Sidewinder Kill, 1 Gun Kill.

30 March 1987 Wng. Cdr. Abdul Razzaq
No. 9 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
PAF Sargodha 1 Soviet/Afghan An-26 Shot down near Miranshah, Pakistan while on a recce mission.

16 April 1987 Sqn. Ldr. Badar Islam
No. 14 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
PAF Minhas (Kamra) 1 Soviet/Afghan Su-22 Shot down after strafing Pakistani villages near Tull, Pakistan along with another Su-22 and with a pair of MiG-23MLDs flying top cover. Remaining 3 aircraft bugged out.

8 April 1988 Sqn. Ldr. Athar Bokhari
No. 14 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
(S. No. 85-725)

PAF Minhas (Kamra) 1 Soviet Su-25
Col. Ruskoi Alexander Valadimirovich, Soviet Air Force (ejected) 1 PAF F-16 Vs. 4 Soviet Su-25s. Night interception over Parachinar, Pakistan. AIM-9L Sidewinder Kill. Remaining 3 Su-25s bugged out. Soviet Su-25 pilot, Col. Ruskoi Alexander Valadimirovich, (later Vice-President of Russia) was taken prisoner by Pakistani authorities.

12 September 1988 Flt. Lt. Khalid Mahmood
No. 14 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
(S. No. 85-728) PAF Minhas (Kamra) 2 Soviet MiG-23MLDs 2 PAF F-16s Vs. 6 Soviet MiG-23s. Near Nawagai border area with Pakistan. Both Kills in a single sortie with AIM-9L and AIM-9P Sidewinders.

3 November 1988 Flt. Lt. Khalid Mahmood
No. 14 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
(S. No. 84-717)
PAF Minhas (Kamra) 1 Afghan Air Force Su-22

Capt. Hashim, AAF (ejected) 2 PAF F-16s Vs. 6 Soviet/Afghan Su-22s. (3 on ground attack and 3 flying top cover)near Tull, Pakistan. Kill made with 2 AIM-9L Sidewinders. Afghan pilot, Capt. Hashim, was captured after bailing out.

20/21 November 1988 Muhammad Abbas Khattak
No. 14 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
PAF Minhas (Kamra) 1 Soviet An-26 Shot down while on a recce mission inside Pakistan. PAF pilot later Chief of the Air Staff, PAF, 1994-1997.

31 January 1989 Flt. Lt. Khalid Mahmood
No. 14 Squadron, PAF F-16B Fighting Falcon

PAF Minhas (Kamra) 1 Soviet An-24 Night interception near Bannu, Pakistan while on a solo 'hot scramble'. An-24 on bombing run crashed while attempting to surrender. Thus credited as 'manoeuvre kill'.

 

[CriticalThought]

If there is another off-the-shelf fighter purchase, this TDS unit could get 4-6 aircraft.

That said, if the PAF is truly planning to take that route, then the best way to do it would be to arm the TDS with the Typhoon T3 armed with the MBDA Meteor and IRIS-T connected to Link-16 with an Erieye. Basically, throw a sink or two at the JF-17 units.

Sir I can't emphasize the importance. When we were buying F-16s, we were benefiting from a lot of operational testing done by Americans to make sure their technologies don't see first use against the enemy in the heat of battle.

Now that we have chalked our own path, operational testing is also our responsibility.

@gambit