PAF's First Aggressor Unit TDS

[Trango Towers]

all is well, happy ?

my dear brother.....don't take this the wrong way but our religion has been hijacked by people declaring everuthing haram. no evidence means you take from the quran where everything is halal except what is what is specifically haram. anyways. big hug yaar. no harm done

 

[Mentee]

my dear brother.....don't take this the wrong way but our religion has been hijacked by people declaring everuthing haram. no evidence means you take from the quran where everything is halal except what is what is specifically haram. anyways. big hug yaar. no harm done

iam a secular at heart ---------- and plz at least get the gist of the modern warfare terminology used by chacha g if, there's anything bothering yiu abiut his version of Islam . I love yiu too

 

[Trango Towers]

iam a secular by heart ---------- and plz at least get the gist of the modern warfare terminology used by chacha g if, there's anything bothering yiu abiut his version of Islam . I love yiu too

I get the point he was trying to make but he doesn't understand that you only fight wars you can win (sun su - additionally look at America only picks on countries that cant fight back, Afghanistan, Libya, panama, Granada, Iraq after ten years of sanctions and now Syria). Pakistan had a point defence policy for a reason. years of sanction and non availability of modern combat planes together with lack of funds made pakistan choose this position. if you think that every tactic PAF has and every strategy it has is published then you and chacha G are very much mistaken. example. 1965 we were heavily outnumbered but we took the fight to the enemy. people of pakistan especially the elderly live in lala land. they have done nothing to assist this nation except talk rubbish. achieved nothing in life but ready to put our country down. I am sorry but unless you have sacrificed for us you do not have the right to put down those that stand guard day and night so that we can sleep.

IF PAF IS SO BAD WHAY HASNT THE ENEMY DARED TO CROSS THE BORDER. you work with what you have and be the best you can with the resources at your disposal. PAF is an ace at that.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Confused;

For a force that is focused on point defense doctrine, where is the aggressor unit going to fit ?

Or are we changing the defense centered doctrine ?
IF we indeed are, then the tools must already have been identified and plans in progress.

the doctrine change is limited to the the shoulder patch
cynicism aside


airforces by nature are always aggressive in their defense they would cross border and take out any potential target before it becomes a danger, look 65, 71 air raids on Indian bases for example.

An 'aggressor' unit, whether air or ground, is not a casual investment or something for pilots to brag about.

Never mind using 'enemy' tactics and hardware. Those things are very important. But what is even more important is the QUALITY of the pilots in the program. There is no need for exaggeration by using nonsensical phrases like 'best of the best of the best of the best' and so on. Suffice to say that aggressor pilots MUST be the best of the entire air force.

It is not enough for an aggressor pilot to be that typical Type A personality. He must calculating in everything. Planning must be as natural as breathing. The pen comes before the stick. He must be dedicated to the mission, no matter how long he is with the unit, which is to provide the most realistic combat scenarios as possible, so this is where the pen comes in.

He must be a better than competent instructor and by that it means he must be able to deal with all types of personalities that comes before him. It is no good for the air force if he cannot impart all the knowledge he knows and skills he possesses. That does not mean everyone he trained will be as good as he is. That is not possible even under the best of environment. But what it means is that he must demonstrate that he can explain complex concepts to everyone. It will be up to those people to put those concepts into their flying.

Physically speaking, he must be in the best flying status. Not as good as possible. But the best. That does not mean he must fly all the time. If whenever he is not capable of flying his best, he does his students no good if he flies at less than his best because no one can afford to hope that the real enemy pilot is flying with inferior skills or physical conditions. The lesson is from WW II US Army Air Corps. After X number of combat missions, the pilot is sent home to train new pilots. The veteran is still in the prime of his flying condition but now with his experience, he will raise the bar, even if just slightly, of new graduating pilots who will enter the war.

Anyone that is less than the best from the force and you might as well scrap the program.

thanks for sharing Gambit
I recall a PAF officer saying to a new F-16 pilot that there are no runner -ups in the air war

 

[Thorough Pro]

Now I remember this aggressor unit is to provide advanced aerial combat training to fighter pilots in the newly setup "ACE" (Airpower Center of Excellence) on the Red Flag lines. Pilots from friendly countries would also be invited to participate and train alongside PAF pilots.

[URL="https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistans-airpower-centre-of-excellence.442814/"]PAKISTAN’S AIRPOWER CENTRE OF EXCELLENCE[/URL]

[URL="https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-to-hold-first-ever-multinational-exercises-of-19-air-forces-of-the-world.516889/"]PAF to hold first ever multinational exercises of 19 Air forces of the World[/URL]

Two things, First, Almost all of the posters on this thread must have read and/or posted on Red flag exercises threads, yet 98% posters here failed to comprehend what an "Aggressor" unit is

Second, sometime back (probably a year or so) in an interview Air Chief mentioned about establishing a state of the art advanced fighter training school / academy (on the lines of Red Flag) for our own as well as pilots from friendly countries, I believe this aggressor unit is a part of the same project

 

[MastanKhan]

After 35 years of service, you are now doing well to criticize those F-16s.
The bitter truth is that the F-16 has been the saving grace of PAF....and if we didn't have these F-16s in 80s and 90s and during Swat operation....then you would understand the meaning of getting Fuucck......

Hi,

F16 has never been the saving grace---the M2k's would have done the job equally good---.

This loss at Kargil was due to the failure of the F16's to show up---.

The Pakistani F16's are the best weapon favoring the enemy---that the enemy allowed pakistan to get---.

That is how devastating the F16 has been for Pakistan---it is like if India has nucked pakistan---.

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

F16 has never been the saving grace---the M2k's would have done the job equally good---.

This loss at Kargil was due to the failure of the F16's to show up---.

The Pakistani F16's are the best weapon favoring the enemy---that the enemy allowed pakistan to get---.

That is how devastating the F16 has been for Pakistan---it is like if India has nucked pakistan---.

In terms of BVR then yes (France were more lenient despite the AIM-7 Sparrow offered from the US), in terms of maintenance costs....then that wouldn't have had the same level of operational status like the F-16s at that time (source : PAF F-16 (2nd batch trained in the US) & Mirage 2000-5 evaluation pilot). Irrespective of the decisions taken......the F-16 in PAF service is something that has worried the Indian AF a good number of times, otherwise they wouldn't be screaming so much at Congress when it comes to the sale of brand new Vipers or 3rd hand Vipers from Jordan to PAF.

 

[Windjammer]

Hi,

F16 has never been the saving grace---the M2k's would have done the job equally good---.

This loss at Kargil was due to the failure of the F16's to show up---.

The Pakistani F16's are the best weapon favoring the enemy---that the enemy allowed pakistan to get---.

That is how devastating the F16 has been for Pakistan---it is like if India has nucked pakistan---.

Mastan sahib, sometimes it helps to refer to history.... first F-16s were delivered to PAF in Jan-1983....whereas the first Mirage-2000 wasn't introduced into French Air force until 1984.....during Kargil neither airforce crossed into the other's airspace to attack the other side as such actions would mean an open declaration of war....and if F-16 are the best gift from our enemy then one wonders why a mere 8 aircraft were cause of such heartburn....surely our enemy didn't think the would be used to transport Beef.

Mirage 2000
Role Multirole fighter
National origin France
Manufacturer Dassault Aviation
First flight 10 March 1978[1]
Introduction July 1984
Status In service
Primary users French Air Force
United Arab Emirates Air Force
Republic of China Air Force
Indian Air Force

 

[CriticalThought]

I don't have any thing personal against you but As I guess , You are just behaving like a kid behind keyboard whos father or some one from family maybe in Uniform or any uncle on some high position.If you don't want to read and understand stop quoting my post , don't play angel , Thanks for advice But, Me and my family is old, Y not you start fixing your self , family and start educating your self, I have no interest in a person with childish behaviour who don't want to understand or get offended with others opinions.
Defensive Position and Defensive Doctrine both are completely different things , I hope you can differentiate in both.
And I also asked one question from you , How will You hit a target 1000Km to 1200KM deep in enemy territory ? Will you use JF-17 or F-16 or you will have proper machine for that or You will talk about Defensive Doctrine or Position?
@Mentee , Its not about Defensive Position its about Defensive Doctrine and Cry about it with loud open mouth, Its about not been able to hit enemy where it hurts the post (Conventionally) . Its about the fear in hurts of enemies.
Quran clearly said Have your Horses Ready and 1400 Years ago in Arab Lands Horse was the most expensive and luxury machine of War one can have.
One can not call white as black unless that person have some personal gains.

Note: What Israeli PM Golda Meir Learned from the Prophet Muhammad [PBUH]


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/what...earned-from-the-prophet-muhammad-pbuh.191915/


I never said its haram !!!!!!!!!!!!!! I said crying about defensive doctrine with open loud mouth and only have defensive doctrine (don't work hard for proper offensive doctrine) is against Islam , and Modern Warfare........... Defensive Position is different then Defensive Doctrine.
Tell me one thing How PAF can hit IAF bases deep In Indian Territory?

Mastan sahib, sometimes it helps to refer to history.... first F-16s were delivered to PAF in Jan-1983....whereas the first Mirage-2000 wasn't introduced into French Air force until 1984.....during Kargil neither airforce crossed into the other's airspace to attack the other side as such actions would mean an open declaration of war....and if F-16 are the best gift from our enemy then one wonders why a mere 8 aircraft were cause of such heartburn....surely our enemy didn't think the would be used to transport Beef.

Mirage 2000
Role Multirole fighter
National origin France
Manufacturer Dassault Aviation
First flight 10 March 1978[1]
Introduction July 1984
Status In service
Primary users French Air Force
United Arab Emirates Air Force
Republic of China Air Force
Indian Air Force

FACT: An American Air Force officer said, after the 2009 Red Flag in which Indian SU-30s participated, that their F-22 and F-16 Block 50 can manage SU-30 very easily. No wonder the Indians are worried sick by the prospect of even more Block 50s.

The only question is: are our Block-50s limited to air-to-ground role only? Did they give us a less capable radar? These are details known only to PAF.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

I get the point he was trying to make but he doesn't understand that you only fight wars you can win (sun su - additionally look at America only picks on countries that cant fight back, Afghanistan, Libya, panama, Granada, Iraq after ten years of sanctions and now Syria). Pakistan had a point defence policy for a reason. years of sanction and non availability of modern combat planes together with lack of funds made pakistan choose this position. if you think that every tactic PAF has and every strategy it has is published then you and chacha G are very much mistaken. example. 1965 we were heavily outnumbered but we took the fight to the enemy. people of pakistan especially the elderly live in lala land. they have done nothing to assist this nation except talk rubbish. achieved nothing in life but ready to put our country down. I am sorry but unless you have sacrificed for us you do not have the right to put down those that stand guard day and night so that we can sleep.

IF PAF IS SO BAD WHAY HASNT THE ENEMY DARED TO CROSS THE BORDER. you work with what you have and be the best you can with the resources at your disposal. PAF is an ace at that.

First I never said it Haram , I said its against the teaching(in last post gave some reference) , You might assumed it!! Second You mentioned 65 and you said we were out numbered , Yes we were but we had one of the best eqm at that time , will you look at PAF aircraft inventory of That War , And what about PN and our Ghazi Sub , most important we don't have Defensive Doctrine then.
And about the fighting war you can only win , If that's the case , many countries wont be Muslims etc etc (really don't want to go in detail and bring Islam in discussion you as well know the history ).
Now about sanctions ! When they came on Pakistan? For how many years they stay? What type of sanctions were they? And how many countries had them? What we did before and after them? If you do some research you will find out some amazing facts !! There is a book in market which say many things about PAF F-16 purchases, and @MastanKhan will guide you about M2K.
Its Not the sanctions or economy , Its all about Us and Our thinking (strategy).
And stop assuming like a kid , what if my side gave much more to Pakistan then your current elite?
And for the read part , We are not in war with India , when war start we will see many things , I m not glorifying enemy but if your thinking is that they are not able or capable of crossing border then ........................... come out of day dreaming dear.
I am not against My armed forces , I love them may be more then you , But critical analysis is not bad , I see the current way of thinking (which is changing) bring more harm on us then any good.........
Current ACM did many great things credit goes to him , but 80s to 90s was the right time for many of them......

 

[Trango Towers]

First I never said it Haram , I said its against the teaching(in last post gave some reference) , You might assumed it!! Second You mentioned 65 and you said we were out numbered , Yes we were but we had one of the best eqm at that time , will you look at PAF aircraft inventory of That War , And what about PN and our Ghazi Sub , most important we don't have Defensive Doctrine then.
And about the fighting war you can only win , If that's the case , many countries wont be Muslims etc etc (really don't want to go in detail and bring Islam in discussion you as well know the history ).
Now about sanctions ! When they came on Pakistan? For how many years they stay? What type of sanctions were they? And how many countries had them? What we did before and after them? If you do some research you will find out some amazing facts !! There is a book in market which say many things about PAF F-16 purchases, and @MastanKhan will guide you about M2K.
Its Not the sanctions or economy , Its all about Us and Our thinking (strategy).
And stop assuming like a kid , what if my side gave much more to Pakistan then your current elite?
And for the read part , We are not in war with India , when war start we will see many things , I m not glorifying enemy but if your thinking is that they are not able or capable of crossing border then ........................... come out of day dreaming dear.
I am not against My armed forces , I love them may be more then you , But critical analysis is not bad , I see the current way of thinking (which is changing) bring more harm on us then any good.........
Current ACM did many great things credit goes to him , but 80s to 90s was the right time for many of them......

First I never said it Haram....
Saying the word haram or using terminology to say against Islam is the same thing. Now you are just playing on words. Here is what you actually said Current doctrine of PAF and PN is against Islam , Quran and any modern warfare strategy .

Now where does it say in the quran it's against islam to have a defensive strategy. Please quote verses. Where does Islam say say a nation cannot have a defensive doctrine. Again references from hadith....not what you think personally. This is the problem with people just shout out its against Islam which by the way is haram.....and have nothing to back up their arguments.

Regardless, don't quote Islam left right and centre unless you are totally sure what you are saying. This is almost a sport amongst the elders in Pakistan. This beautiful religion is being hijacked by people using it to further their arguments.

Regardless.....I think Pakistan, it's people and it's forces are in hands far more capable than both you and I. Pray when the time come you and I can't stand and fight for our country instead of arguing about it.

You are,talking about day dreaming yet you haven't woken up that as soon as war starts surface to surface missile and cruise missiles and glide bombs will play a huge part. Now please stop the emotional rant

 

[gambit]

Then What's Combat Commanders School and the units stationed there are for if they are not Aggressor units ? Or is it just Re-orientation and name changing of CCS based units

I do not know the details of that school but am willing to go out on a limb so excuse me if I make any mistake in understanding the nature of the 'Combat Commanders School'.

Am guessing that the core focus of the CCS is about leadership. As a potential leader rises thru the ranks, it is expected that he possesses certain knowledge independent of the qualities of leadership as well as skills necessary for being a leader. In theory, any officer is a leader, but in reality, some are better than others. A commander may not be the best pilot in the squadron, but he better be sensitive enough to know who is and exploit that exceptional pilot according to needs. That is a QUALITY of leadership that is often difficult to cultivate. The TECHNICAL skills of piloting an aircraft are already essential to him.

Take an extreme example...

http://www.3squadron.org.au/subpages/sgt1.htm

...appointing some of the more experienced and knowledgeable Sergeant Pilots to lead Flights, and to even lead the Squadron on certain missions.

Here we have an ENLISTED airman giving orders to officers in combat.

A commander's primary focus is in how to motivate his crew, ensure their fitness, and sustain met standards.

An 'Aggressor' air force program is akin to a specialized skill set where a commander may call upon these specialists to enhance his crew's ability to fight.

 

[John Reese]

FACT: An American Air Force officer said, after the 2009 Red Flag in which Indian SU-30s participated, that their F-22 and F-16 Block 50 can manage SU-30 very easily. No wonder the Indians are worried sick by the prospect of even more Block 50s.

The only question is: are our Block-50s limited to air-to-ground role only? Did they give us a less capable radar? These are details known only to PAF.

LOL that Happens After 2 times thrashing in cope India

Where Even Mig-21 bison Made kill Of F-16s

 

[Hassan Guy]

What is it?

 

[Raider 21]

I do not know the details of that school but am willing to go out on a limb so excuse me if I make any mistake in understanding the nature of the 'Combat Commanders School'.

An 'Aggressor' air force program is akin to a specialized skill set where a commander may call upon these specialists to enhance his crew's ability to fight.

It is modeled after the USAF Fighter Weapons School program.