PAF's First Aggressor Unit TDS

[CriticalThought]

Well reality is- even if there is a consensus on this forum, in real life it would amount to big fat zero. So might as well go with flow, (when you are on the forum).

I have high expectations from our leadership. If not in short term, then certainly in the long term.

I was going to post this earlier. If they manage to sell the vital importance of aggressors to our Thunder development partners in China, it would bring China's vast resources to the game.

The key selling point is: our technology shouldn't see first use in anger against the enemy in the heat of battle. The Americans go to huge lengths to ensure this. We should take a page from their play book.

@gambit

 

[CriticalThought]

Hmmm any relationship with this new development? Specially, the two announcements coming so close to each other. Comments appreciated.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/please-welcome-grippen-aggressor.517552/

It is possible that PAF may hone Thunder as an aggressor at TDS then bring it as a competitor to Gripen. Thoughts?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hmmm any relationship with this new development? Specially, the two announcements coming so close to each other. Comments appreciated.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/please-welcome-grippen-aggressor.517552/

It is possible that PAF may hone Thunder as an aggressor at TDS then bring it as a competitor to Gripen. Thoughts?

Well the US and UK anticipate deterring countries with MiG-35s, JF-17s and (hilariously) Gripens, so the Gripen Aggressor is a solid lock in terms of mirroring adversary capabilities. However, the PAF has the peculiar situation of having to simulate against markedly superior platforms.

In the fleet as-is, an adequate force would that of the F-16 MLU with Link-16, but there might be American restrictions on operating F-16s with JF-17s in the air (@messiach), hope I am wrong.

The Gripen Aggressor is non-weaponizable, which might indicate a possibility of it being available to private contractors (e.g. Draken International). The PAF could look at getting them to visit Pakistan once in a while. If only there were some wealthy guys in Pakistan and the Middle East who could get together to form a contractor aggressor team, buy a bunch of these and dole out services to the PAF, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, etc.

 

[CriticalThought]

Well the US and UK anticipate deterring countries with MiG-35s, JF-17s and (hilariously) Gripens, so the Gripen Aggressor is a solid lock in terms of mirroring adversary capabilities. However, the PAF has the peculiar situation of having to simulate against markedly superior platforms.

In the fleet as-is, an adequate force would that of the F-16 MLU with Link-16, but there might be American restrictions on operating F-16s with JF-17s in the air (@messiach), hope I am wrong.

The Gripen Aggressor is non-weaponizable, which might indicate a possibility of it being available to private contractors (e.g. Draken International). The PAF could look at getting them to visit Pakistan once in a while. If only there were some wealthy guys in Pakistan and the Middle East who could get together to form a contractor aggressor team, buy a bunch of these and dole out services to the PAF, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, etc.

I wish I had the money. The problem with living in Sydney is you earn big and you pay big taxes for the privilege of living in a first world society. It doesn't really leave much in the pocket.

I have wanted to start my own software business, but I don't have the business contacts. Interestingly, wealthy Muslim countries such as U.A.E., Saudi, Qatar etc. have more need for IT professionals (network administrators, security analysts, database administrators, SAP experts etc.) than core software development professionals who create new software.

 

[niaz]

Hmmm any relationship with this new development? Specially, the two announcements coming so close to each other. Comments appreciated.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/please-welcome-grippen-aggressor.517552/

It is possible that PAF may hone Thunder as an aggressor at TDS then bring it as a competitor to Gripen. Thoughts?

“More you sweat in peace, less you bleed in war”.

An aggressor squadron is an excellent idea. However, JF-17 is already in Pakistan’s inventory; F-16 & other pilots are probably exercising with the JF-17 pilots every day. If we must, by all means buy Grippen, it is a very competent modern fighter. But our perceived foe, the IAF does not operate Grippen.

“Raison D’etre” of an aggressor squadron is to provide a realistic battle experience to the pilots without actually having to fight the battle with the enemy. Therefore the aggressor aircraft must be “Dissimilar” and ideally should have the performance of the aircraft operated by the perceived adversary. Since PAF is allocating manpower and financial resources to create an aggressor squadron, machines operated by the aggressor squadron need to have capabilities close to that of the front line IAF fighters.

Mig-29s are available in the second hand market and it would be possibly to buy 13 -14 used Mig- 29 from ex Warsaw pact countries. Turkmenistan & Uzbekistan have quite a few operational Mig-29. Understand Ukraine used to operate a large fleet Mig-29s. PAF could buy 13- 14 of these and have the same refurbished. Even the old models of MIG -29 have exceptional agility but were costly to maintain.

Understand Mig-29 is also used by the USAF as is a similar role and a squadron of Mig - 29 with PAF would be very effective as aggressor. If the Mig-29 has been effectively refurbished for the TDS squadron, it would be best if these are based at Masroor and in case of hostilities; can be used to combat carries based Mig -29 of the Indian Navy. Thus killing two birds with one stone.

 

[CriticalThought]

“More you sweat in peace, less you bleed in war”.

An aggressor squadron is an excellent idea. However, JF-17 is already in Pakistan’s inventory; F-16 & other pilots are probably exercising with the JF-17 pilots every day. If we must, by all means buy Grippen, it is a very competent modern fighter. But our perceived foe, the IAF does not operate Grippen.

“Raison D’etre” of an aggressor squadron is to provide a realistic battle experience to the pilots without actually having to fight the battle with the enemy. Therefore the aggressor aircraft must be “Dissimilar” and ideally should have the performance of the aircraft operated by the perceived adversary. Since PAF is allocating manpower and financial resources to create an aggressor squadron, machines operated by the aggressor squadron need to have capabilities close to that of the front line IAF fighters.

Mig-29s are available in the second hand market and it would be possibly to buy 13 -14 used Mig- 29 from ex Warsaw pact countries. Turkmenistan & Uzbekistan have quite a few operational Mig-29. Understand Ukraine used to operate a large fleet Mig-29s. PAF could buy 13- 14 of these and have the same refurbished. Even the old models of MIG -29 have exceptional agility but were costly to maintain.

Understand Mig-29 is also used by the USAF as is a similar role and a squadron of Mig - 29 with PAF would be very effective as aggressor. If the Mig-29 has been effectively refurbished for the TDS squadron, it would be best if these are based at Masroor and in case of hostilities; can be used to combat carries based Mig -29 of the Indian Navy. Thus killing two birds with one stone.

Excellent analysis sir! But I would like to add that Viper and Gripen are the front runners for India's medium weight project. So we have to wait and watch. That said, Thunder was based on a study of Gripen and as you already mentioned, our pilots perform DACT of Viper vs. Thunder probably every day.

The Migs would be an excellent platform for the SU-30 threat. Also, there has been some news that PAF is actively pursuing Russian/Chinese jets so I am pretty confident in this aspect as well.

My main concern is Rafale, and its weapons and EW suit. The M2K-9s from U.A.E. may be a good substitute for the aerodynamics, but we absolutely need to get our hands on the weapons and EW. Specifically, MICA, METEOR, and SPECTRA. We need to know these systems inside out so we can devise strategies against them.

 

[fatman17]

We should invest in the same manner as we did in improving the F7 into the F7PG. This time the aircraft should be the J16D.

 

[The Accountant]

it was need of time we also need heavy bombers and killer aircrafts . f-16 and thunders are not enough

I thought you were against expensive purchases ...

 

[YeBeWarned]

We should invest in the same manner as we did in improving the F7 into the F7PG. This time the aircraft should be the J16D.

Question is will it be available for us in near future ? Russian are not showing any flexibility over giving NoC to Chinese to sell their J-series .. And if it happen than buying 2 full sqs of J-11D of the shelf would be a better choice don't you think ?
J-11 can work as prime strike fighter and deep naval striker backed by jf-17's. Both can be link by (link-17) along with ZDK AWACS .

 

[mingle]

We should invest in the same manner as we did in improving the F7 into the F7PG. This time the aircraft should be the J16D.

Our third type will be J16 D as par F15 Eagles .

 

[CriticalThought]

@The Accountant @Starlord @mingle the discussion on this thread is about equipping the new aggressor unit with aircraft that are similar to enemy aircraft to train our backbone pilots in enemy tactics. Let's not move the discussion in another direction.

 

[The Accountant]

Ary bhai paroos mn attack krna ha india per ... US nahi .. why the hell we need long range strategic bomber ?

i want tu-160 from russia.make it possible pakistan.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Ary bhai paroos mn attack krna ha india per ... US nahi .. why the hell we need long range strategic bomber ?

PAF has always operated Bombers in the past... They have their own benefit and capabilities..

 

[Arsalan]

Why do i have a feeling that this is more related to a dedicated unit that will play "enemy" in exercises rather than any twin engine or 7th generation planes that MANY are talking and dreaming of?

@HRK @TaimiKhan @Oscar @araz ??

 

[HRK]

Why do i have a feeling that this is more related to a dedicated unit that will play "enemy" in exercises rather than any twin engine or 7th generation planes that MANY are talking and dreaming of?

@HRK @TaimiKhan @Oscar @araz ??

I believe exactly this is the case .... few days back I read an article about ACE (unfortunately has lost the link) which describe its formation as the combination of CSS, TDS & one other institute/school (again forgetting the name something related to Weapon) so this development should coincide with new concept of ACE which in my opinion is further refinement & a step beyond CSS as all those institutions were already in existence.