PAF should've invested more on J-10s rather than JF-17s

[Edevelop]

Forget JF-17 for Now. We should change the topic.

Question is PAF bought new 18 F-16 Block 52 and upgraded 36 existing F-16 to Block 40 for Billions of Dollars!!!!

Why didn't they invest the same amount of money on J-10>>>>??????????????????????????

P.S the issue here is NOT cost BUT decision making......

 

[Safriz]

Forget JF-17 for Now. We should change the topic.

Question is PAF bought new 18 F-16 Block 52 and upgraded 36 existing F-16 to Block 40 for Billions of Dollars!!!!

Why didn't they invest the same amount of money on J-10>>>>??????????????????????????

P.S the right answer to this is NOT cost BUT decision making......

no the right answer is "release of funds"...
Musharraf kept releasing funds at tge right time in the right amount for JF-17, and we see the result...
then came zardari and obviously Pakistans contribution towards a project being run for pakistan became zero...
thats why j-10b is still yellow and delayed.

 

[Su-11]

Why this obsession with J-10b. Why didn't PAF get a few J-10a. I don't recall the russians ever objecting to transfer of AL-31 engines. Is J-10A's quality so poor?

 

[GR!FF!N]

ok j-10 is up and running...but
is there any official declaration on j-10b that its operational? i think not..
Its still in testing phase and all those saying PAF had bought J-10b instead of JF-17 are ignoring this fact.

china has offered j-10b to pakistan...but that doesnt mean its ready...its not..
there is a video of J-20 being tested on 7th may 2012..and you can see j-10b in the background...still in yellow colour..

you are right..still there are no confirmed news that China inducted J-10b and still there are rumours that WS-10 is not ready either.so that means it is either in testing phase or inducted secretly.

 

[SBD-3]

Forget JF-17 for Now. We should change the topic.

Question is PAF bought new 18 F-16 Block 52 and upgraded 36 existing F-16 to Block 40 for Billions of Dollars!!!!

Why didn't they invest the same amount of money on J-10>>>>??????????????????????????

P.S the issue here is NOT cost BUT decision making......

The issue with J-10 is not investment but time. J-10s evolution has never been constrained by Funds. CAC had ample funding available. However, while funding is an important factor, it can only speed up the project to an extent. For example, while engine development requires money but tweaking requires time. PAF saw F-16s as an available substitute for immediate needs while J-10 kept evolving alongside. PAF's funding contribution would do little to accelerate the project, but operational input certainly would be more helpful.

Why this obsession with J-10b. Why didn't PAF get a few J-10a. I don't recall the russians ever objecting to transfer of AL-31 engines. Is J-10A's quality so poor?

Had US not released F-16s, I am sure we would have seen J-10As in PAF color. The issue was not with quality or anything but more demands specific. As per information, PAF floated its specific RFI for J-10B (which was on par with a new F-16 variant unveiled in Gulf 'hint hint') and CAC's response was what we see in the shape of J-10B. in J-10A PAF didn't have the freedom since it was already an in manufacturing product while in J-10B (which was in developmental stage) it could exercise more freedom. So PAF's decision was F-16 Block 50 (PAF's F-16s are Block 50 -due to PW engine- not block 52 which uses a GE engine) for any immediate threat from east while J-10B for its longer term requirements.

 

[Edevelop]

@ Safriz:

Well Musharraf made some poor choices for the Air Force....

Lets us say i take out the J-10 vs F-16 issue.

Again lets bring the talk about other fighter jets:

34 Mirage III were upgraded from late 90s to early 2000s
8 new F-7 PG were bought and were delivered in 2002.
that equals 42 jets....

These aging aircrafts did NOT make any difference, don't you agree? We know for a fact that these are pieces of junk truly as they are NOT BVR capable, have weak fighting roles, and started to crash....

Instead what could have been done with the funds was purchasing 1 squadron of new Mirage 2000 in which PAF at one stage was seriously considering.

If i'm correct, good management could have had these fighter jets today:

42 JF-17 Block 1
100+ JF-17 Block 2 + 3 on order
41 F-16 Block 40
18 F-16 Block 52
36 J-10B on order.....
15-18 Mirage 2000
82 Mirage V
41 Mirage III (save money by retiring original 34 from total of 75)
178 F-7 (save money by avoid buying 8 new)

 

[shuntmaster]

Pakistan is a much smaller country than china...so jf-17 didnt need to be large and long range....unlike j-10 which is large and long range for a large country china.
so there is one major difference between the needs of PAF and PLAAF...in addition to many...

What are the combat ranges of JF17 and J10. I suppose JF17 ha refuelling feature, so the range should not be a significant factor, right?
Also, arent both fighters having the same combat roles i.e. multi-role with interception as the primary role? The range will be a big factor if the plane is used for the deep strike or ground attack..

 

[SBD-3]

What are the combat ranges of JF17 and J10. I suppose JF17 ha refuelling feature, so the range should not be a significant factor, right?
Also, arent both fighters having the same combat roles i.e. multi-role with interception as the primary role? The range will be a big factor if the plane is used for the deep strike or ground attack..

J-10A has refueling prob not JFT (which is expected in Block II)

@ Safriz:

Well Musharraf made some poor choices for the Air Force....

Lets us say i take out the J-10 vs F-16 issue.

Again lets bring the talk about other fighter jets:

34 Mirage III were upgraded from late 90s to early 2000s
8 new F-7 PG were bought and were delivered in 2002.
that equals 42 jets....

These aging aircrafts did NOT make any difference, don't you agree? We know for a fact that these are pieces of junk truly as they are NOT BVR capable, have weak fighting roles, and started to crash....

Instead what could have done with the funds was purchasing 1 squadron of new Mirage 2000 in which PAF at one stage the seriously considering.

If i'm correct, good management could have had these fighter jets today:

42 JF-17 Block 1
100+ JF-17 Block 2 + 3 on order
41 F-16 Block 40
18 F-16 Block 52
36 J-10B on order.....
15-18 Mirage 2000
82 Mirage V
41 Mirage III (save money and should have retired original 34 from total of 75)
178 F-7 (save money and avoid buying 8 new)

Even in early 2000s US had her embargoes in place. Chinese were only able to offer F-7 variants. Grippen was also out of question since it used GE Engine (US). Russians, well no to that as well. The only option was France with whom we already had a fiasco in Mir-2K procurement. PAF is the only air force to implement ROSE program. It gave a chance to PAF engineers to work alongside French and the valuable experiences that PAF professionals gained from this program are still broadly acknowledged and appreciated.

 

[Safriz]

What are the combat ranges of JF17 and J10. I suppose JF17 ha refuelling feature, so the range should not be a significant factor, right?
Also, arent both fighters having the same combat roles i.e. multi-role with interception as the primary role? The range will be a big factor if the plane is used for the deep strike or ground attack..

ok i am not an exopert on the subject..i am still reading abouth these aircrafts....somebody else can wtite a better answer..But J-10 wasnt a multirole aircraft when the project started...it had ti be air dominance aircraft...then after soviet collapse..the project changed course....When the project did change course and a viable multirole plane took shaoe then PAF slotted in and asked for a variant for their requirement...
So in my opinion PAF hasnt made bad choices..its how things went with the project which dictated PAFs response..
initially they did not show interest because J-10 wasnt a multirole plane PAF was looking for.

 

[Safriz]

Dont forget that the original J-10 has changed course many times even been abandoned and restarted..so there can be issues...
similar to eurofighter project..

but j-10b is a well thought project and the product is very refined...
and PAF has a lot of input in the project...
There is a saying that if a plane is good..it will look good..
i never liked the look of j-10 ..but j-10b looks very good.

 

[Dazzler]

j-10 was designed as a strictly Chinese front line fighter and never offered as a joint venture in the first place so there is no option for JV on J-10. This pretty much mutes the point of joint venture, jf-17 was the brainchild of PAF thinkers that merged with Chinese export oriented fighter (Super Saber+S-7). Even FC-20 was offered after repeated requests by PAF and GOP on many occasions which shows the importance of Pakistan for China. Difference is obvious, one was designed as a frontline fighter for PLAAF, other was to fulfill the second tier mainstay role for PAF and other airforces (in case of many airforces, it will become the frontline fighter such as for Srilanka, Zimbabwe and others)

 

[Farooqi1]

1-Kamra is not expanding for nothing, Israelis still developed their industry when they could have the same or better equipment from US without any reservations. Pakistan has seen much worse times than today, our economy was hit by worst floods, marred by severe electricity shortage and still we were able to grow in real terms, Look at Japan and Europe how they have suffered from the shocks. I don't think we are that bad as we perceive ourselves to be.
2-Indian Military machine is expanding rapidly then thats not necessarily bad.For each fighter deployed in Pakistan and China, India has to induct 4 fighters to maintain its deterrence. More burden, more bleeding. PAF's decision to maintain its numbers while pushing the tech frontier of its inventory is fairly understand since it is now more interested in technological superiority than numbers. With rapid spillovers of technology from China and abroad We may expect a compact yet technologically advanced fleet.
3-Again people here confuse platforms with capabilities.Let me ask you What weapon JFT doesn't have in its arsenal? I always believed that PAF's best bet is to paralyze the IAF forward infrastructure and Deny it Air superiority.All these development in stand off capability should be enough hint about what PAF has aimed at.

How are we going to get the air superiority when we don't have any projects in place? Every time I bring in JFT every one start saying that air superiority was not intended purpose of JFT.

 

[Safriz]

j-10 was designed as a strictly Chinese front line fighter and never offered as a joint venture in the first place so there is no option for JV on J-10. This pretty much mutes the point of joint venture, jf-17 was the brainchild of PAF thinkers that merged with Chinese export oriented fighter (Super Saber+S-7). Even FC-20 was offered after repeated requests by PAF and GOP on many occasions which shows the importance of Pakistan for China. Difference is obvious, one was designed as a frontline fighter for PLAAF, other was to fulfill the second tier mainstay role for PAF and other airforces (in case of many airforces, it will become the frontline fighter such as for Srilanka, Zimbabwe and others)

hi,
what about j-10b?
did PAF had any contribution?

 

[VelocuR]

Is it require China to induct J-10B first before export version to Pakistan later ?

 

[alimobin memon]

Guys Try to understand , i don't know most of the guys posting JF17 as just replacement for oldies of PAF. That is totally wrong the only fighter that was just to replace oldies was super 7 , when JF17 project started as FC-1 we can say in 1998 or 1999 it was evolved into PAF's new fighter jet that will be main fleet of PAF operations , however j10b is an excellent and high tech aircraft but so is jf17 the only reason if PAF's asks for j10b or F16 block 52+ is the range and payload. if we take a round on the specs of jf17 and those two so called superior to JF17 the difference we see is mainly range and payload and that the JF17 has little version of j10A's radar the KLJ 10 , according to Several sources the KLJ-7 of JF-17 was later replaced by j10 , name KLJ7 remains the same for many people but it is actually KLJ10. furthermore the Electronic warfare that is built in or "integrated" on the tail fin has proved to block the locking of f16 Block 15 OCU of PAF against it. The fact is if JF17 has IRST,AESA there will be almost no difference in both the aircraft, why china is not buying the only reason that is reasonable is its maneuvering and range as stated by Safriz. Most of people won't know that or might not believe that j10 is so super maneuvering that when f35 was on papers the engineers of US stated that f35 lacks maneuvering against j10. i have read the post regarding JF17 and j10 that j10 is superior because it costs more than JF17 the reason behind it is economy the plane made by US if suppose costs 40 mil they will export it on 80 mil that is true that's why they have trillions of assets where as china and Pakistan they dont have strong currency however china is improving at ultra ratio. so that makes there product quite cheap. where as PAF gets JF17 at 33 million dollars a piece, the export version that is stated on net and media is 15 - 20 millions dollars well brothers i wont say the source name but truth is the 15 -20 million is cost for export variant and that is not as potent as JF17 of PAF 33 million dollars consists of parts and etc but still its unit cost remains between 27 - 28 million dollars. JF17 is now 65% made in Pakistan and no one knows they are just installing or also improving it , what i am trying to say is JF17 of PAF is very different to electronics of what both china and pakistan made in early stage or the pt-06 of china maybe superior or not that is not concern the concern is PAF version is different then what we hear.
One more thing even if jf17 block 2 does not get AESA , it is not that JF17 is useless or what so ever you wanna call , the ef2000 "euro fighter typhoon still uses pulse doppler (this aircraft has locked f22 from few angles). What i am trying to say is AESA is not quite yet operational in whole world Except UAE and United states where as others are test bed. Though i heard JF17 RADAR has proven better then RC400 still they are adding new features like rotating disk that will provide greater radar coverage.