PAF should've invested more on J-10s rather than JF-17s

[alimobin memon]

hi,
what about j-10b?
did PAF had any contribution?

PAF is also working with chinese on the J10B project .

 

[alimobin memon]

This topic is getting useless so now please stick the discussion regarding topic.

 

[Contrarian]

i disagree with your statement, JF-17 is our investment not only in terms of knowledge but also in terms of being self reliant with a reliable platform which is free of sanctions ... just like you guys have been heavily investing in LCA and still are, don't you think the same amount spend would had gotten you some more Flankers? yes but you guys like us are also spending the time, money and efforts for the same reason (maybe not sanctions but knowledge and self reliance for sure)

PAF would have done the same - J-10 fills the requirements of Pakistan as well. And much better than JF-17. PAF would have done the same - modify and license produce it gradually at home. It would have yielded the same benefits and a much more capable plane.

 

[notorious_eagle]

PAF would have done the same - J-10 fills the requirements of Pakistan as well. And much better than JF-17. PAF would have done the same - modify and license produce it gradually at home. It would have yielded the same benefits and a much more capable plane.

How exactly? What possible advantage except for weapons load does the J10 have over JF17 if we are talking about Air Defence Role. Now if we were talking about fulfilling the role of a strike aircraft, i get your point but for the Air Defence role, there is no tangible advantage the J10 offers over the JF17.

 

[sancho]

How exactly? What possible advantage except for weapons load does the J10 have over JF17 if we are talking about Air Defence Role. Now if we were talking about fulfilling the role of a strike aircraft, i get your point but for the Air Defence role, there is no tangible advantage the J10 offers over the JF17.

It's actually the other way around:

- higher maneuverability
- higher speed
- more possible missile stations with the same ammount of fuel tanks
- lower RCS (B version)
- IRST (B version)

In A2G the only real advantage of J10 will be a dedicated LDP station for CAS with LGBs, or more stations for smaller bombs, but there will be no load difference with any important A2G weapon, since both offer 3 x wetstations with 4 x additional wingstations for weapons.

Within the South Asian, central Asian Middle East context and specifically within the "Asia Pivot", Have we seen IA or IAF or IN be a active threat??

Of course not, but Indian forces are the biggest and most capable in the reagion, so comparisons will always be made with them. In case of Pakistan this comparison is once based on history, but also by the fact that Pakistan is the only other nuclear power of the region, which again is reason enough for many people, to relate any move of Indian forces to Pakistan, or that any addition to Pakistani forces is aimed on India.

 

[araz]

PAF would have done the same - J-10 fills the requirements of Pakistan as well. And much better than JF-17. PAF would have done the same - modify and license produce it gradually at home. It would have yielded the same benefits and a much more capable plane.

I think Firstly J10was not on the selling horizons when JFTwas dreamt and manufactured. In many ways because of the input fromPAF it is ideal for our use. We would have probably gone for more F16s but all said and done we have made a very sensible decision. I suspect had PAFhad more money twin seater would have been made by now and we would have incorporated more tech into JFT rather than buying J10s.
Araz

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

PAF should've invested more on j-10s rather than jf17s.
=========================================================
certain people are putting the comparisons interms of general capability like this..

1]jf17 (block1) = 70% of f16c/jas39 grippen
2]jf17 (block2) = 90% of f16c/jas39 grippen
3]j10 = 85% of f16c/jas39 grippen

(i might be wrong)
keeping in mind from the above stats that both jf17 and j10 are below block52 (in the 70s and 80 percent range)[/ , i have some questions quite for some time. i'm a medical docter , so please bear with my ignorance. i want some expert input here.why didnt we stick to j10 or sticked to upgraded jf17

j10 pros

*why did we invest so much money on jf17 research when ,, tot alongwith 2 extra squadrons of j10 couldve been acquired in the same money?....only to increase ac numbers to increase sortie rates on india?

*why didnt we concentrate only on j10, making different blocks/upgrades...diversifying and specifying their roles?
*at the moment f7s are our backbone.. they are also not ''our'' product... if we are planning to upgrade,, than why not go for quality aircraft that would serve us years to come..(i.e j10)

*china is also making j10 the backbone
*cost of j10 could ve been negogiated
*along with tot to get building experience plus pulling the cost down
*j10 batches of different teck couldve been made to pull down cost

*the avionics on j10b would be same/comparable with j11b, we wont have to go for the costly twin engined j11b [which russia wont allow anyway.. but then again where would russua sue china? also china is the main importer of russian goods.. russia wont affect those relations and might overlook j11 export to paf]

Present state of j10 'a'
*****western media is clearly downplaying j10s performance..---on the otherhand chinese media is speaking volumes of this j10 jet... even say that the composites & avionics of upgraded j11b are put in this relatively lighter (as compared to su30) jet.. thus making it better in dogfighting ascompared to su27/30-- where do the 'unbiased' opinions put the present j10, paf export j10variant ,subsequent super10 respectively against other contempory jets? i.e can it compete with f18 superhornet or rafale?



The indian factor
india is also getting 200 su30 and 126 mrca making the better specs craft in more number[/b] what will we be having to match their capabilities? Afterall the jf-17 is supposed to counter iaf
**





JF17 pros

*already some of the systems put in j10 are in jf17 (so ivwe read) so, the subsequent batch inshallah if better might reach the complexity of j10... so why then go for more j10s if [[gradually]] u'll end up upgrading jf7s to j10s (i.e f16 block52+)performance anyway.

where does the jf-17 lack as compared to the j10 and how does this handicap affect paf? can the paf ''afford'' this handicap?why didnt we design a medium wt fighter? why didnt we not make a air superiority design delta/canards


what will be the level till which we would ultimately upgrade jft before the 'cost effectiveness' diminishes and the cost of jft blk3 reaches close to j10

what will be handicaps even in jft blk3 due to structural size restictions and design properties?

at the moment the underpowered engine and the radar is making me wonder if we could be able to get some decent western tech other than darters from south africa.without that jf17 is really just a modified f7pg...


are there some good choice in engines /radars/avionics for us (other than chinese)?


=============mirage rose=================================
where do the mirage3 stand against mirage2000 after their rose upgrades?do they still suck in maneovering?mirage 3 are interceptors...but i doubt that the 1950s jet can do that against indian hightech multirole jets even after the upgrades

F-16s

are the f16 block52 given with some codes restrictions? wouth the EDA ones ever get released?



Another western fighter option?
Should we chooses another western fighter which comes 2nd in the indian mmrca race? This fighter would also has better range , payload , avionics etc..... but the numbers we could buy wont be very high as compared to the other option of j10s

5th gen fighter
we should clearly define one 5th gen. and only induct 20 aircrafts for long range bombing/airsuperiority/deterent/protection of our skies etc... of western origin rather than to wait for chinese 5th gen as there are no official chinese 5th gen fighters in the open to counter pakfa

EDIT IN 2012
Ideal LOW END to HIGH END ratio?
jft blk1: jft blk2 : f16 + j10 : jxx
. ...and i want to know about this by our veterans here ,to ellaborate on this fact

When I was a kid , I used to hears same argument

Why should Pakistan spend money on Helicopter research when we can get a helicopter from USA A fine machine like Cobra


Guess what ... we still have that same cobra helicopter and World has moved on

The point of JF17 thunder is to be FREE.... FREE LIKE an eagle that soars in sky free of sanctions

I remember reading back then Generals like Zia used to say , oh research is for western Nations we will just buy from our allies our Friends

And , back then when we got F16 , anything was possible we had one of best jets in world

But ... what happened in 90's when we were sanctions ... we were fearing the worse... the f16s would be grounded .....

Pakistan was facing same situation as Iran , can't get fighters or upgrades to technlogy


"TECHNOLOGICAL embargo" is the modern day term for ENSLAVEMENT

Nations who will not invest in

Education
Technology
Research
Space and Science

They will become the Neanderthals of modern age

Million years ago , some human spices did not survive while some did , the difference was that one could make sophisticated hunting tools and also knew farming methods , while other was not so good at it ..

Evolution in technology based...

For us we need to evolve .. and be best nation in world and that can only happen if we invest in Education and technology and JF17 thunder is that step that take us towards that goal of owning our own stuff


J10 while its a superior plane , but it was not open for joint research , it is what it is .. Pakistan did what was best at that time invested in JF17 thunder .. and we have emerged as a nation who can now design planes

 

[帅的一匹]

Is it require China to induct J-10B first before export version to Pakistan later ?

PLAAF inducted J10b early at this year, we will induct it in large number. FYI

 

[帅的一匹]

Jf7 is the fundamental of PAF, j10b is a Future backbone for PAF. I don see anything contradictory here.

 

[sancho]

Post moved, from the JF 17 thread because we discussed the differences of J10 compared to JF 17???

 

[Manticore]

the jf-17 main thread is not a thread for comparisons , so I moved some posts here

regarding my first post, this was my first post on this forum , you can see my view point gradually diversifying even in this very thread and over the years ive read some stuff here and there in my free time

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-wa...acteristics-canard-non-canard-fighters-2.html

 

[Storm Force]

I am certain if FUNDS permit J10 would be inducted into PAF and in large nos.

THE J10 is a much larger single engined fighter than JFT and has some obvious advantages like payload, range bigger radars jammers and compsites.

IT IS A BETTER MATCH UP TO THE VERY LARGE FLEET OF 270 SU30MKI that PAF faces
BUT one J10 costs twice as much as one JFT and here is the problem.

I would put the FC20 & F16/52 on par in terms of range payload, TWR and overall ability they are also both larger than the JFT.

 

[Saquib]

can any body confirm when pakistan will get J 10b

The biggest weakness I can see it is the engine if PAF need a decent engin design a new jet engine then every thing will fall in it's place, tha is the next step for PAF

 

[Teeta]

The biggest weakness I can see it is the engine if PAF need a decent engin design a new jet engine then every thing will fall in it's place, tha is the next step for PAF

Who will design a new jet engine? Pakistanis? lol .... Do you know how hard it is to design a jet engine?

Ask Chinese.

 

[MilSpec]

........................
The point of JF17 thunder is to be FREE.... FREE LIKE an eagle that soars in sky free of sanctions
\

"TECHNOLOGICAL embargo" is the modern day term for ENSLAVEMENT

Nations who will not invest in

Education
Technology
Research
Space and Science

They will become the Neanderthals of modern age

Million years ago , some human spices did not survive while some did , the difference was that one could make sophisticated hunting tools and also knew farming methods , while other was not so good at it ..

Evolution in technology based...

For us we need to evolve .. and be best nation in world and that can only happen if we invest in Education and technology and JF17 thunder is that step that take us towards that goal of owning our own stuff

If deterioration of friendship with a key ally is any indicator, do you have any backup plans if relations with china head south in future?????