PAF should've invested more on J-10s rather than JF-17s

[Manticore]

hi Luftwaffe ! i hope you remember my very first thread on the forum... ''paf shouldve invested more in j10s'' and i reckon my views were severely bashed in that thread-- however i came to know that these 3 fighters make up for their deficiencies in different paramaters -- cas, range,payload,superiority,multirole,sortie rate,training,economy,aerodynamics etc

i also came to know how the french withheld our refurbished mirages during kargil era.. i also came to know about the importance of ToT ... and after the flights of fifth gen fighters by russia , the problem faced by pakistan seems even more daunting -- the cost to capability ratio for any other western platform is not practical in the given economical situation

till now we are playing ''catchup'' --- the fifth gen procourement wont happen in days .. it would recquire years of savings from paf ... and till that time paf needs interim fighters which are capable enough , however dont bankrupt us before the option of fifth gen is available to us

i think paf is making the jft as capable as possible-- this will lift the workload from j10 and f16 , so that the bulk of their missions would be deep penetration rather than babysitting the jft -- this is a sensible and cost-effective approach i.e if you cant buy many j10, atleast use them mostly for deep strikes so as to provide the paf with an offensive punch

the commonality and upgradation options of j10 are very lucrative aspects --- however the proportion of jft:j10 is where i differ from many pakistanis... j10s got to be atleast 100+ in number to give us that fighting punch.. 36odd j10s wont cut it


the jft blk2/3 should constitute the most of jfts... jft blk1 should be diverted to advanced training squadrons once our initial numbers are met

now if we go with j11bs aswell.. it means we made a mistake in prioritization and bought one fighter out of the 4 which didnt meet our outstanding requirements or was just a number filler.... if thats the case then i will have many sleepless nights

the TTs might be able to tell why paf went for a light fighter when at the design table... however there would be structural limitations of jft blk3 aswell... and we shouldnt put extra money in redesigning jft like the japanese did with the f16 as we have a better solution in the form of j10
http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...irole-fighter-thread-4-a-410.html#post2900683

 

[abdulbarijan]

Sorry had to repost again to get my point across
Bari:

I was not sarcastic at all. It is just the way I grew up respecting the other person. It doesn't matter that how old are you and in my opinion you should not have disclosed your age. Now nobody would take you seriously in this very serious forum where we are discussing the defense of our homeland. This forum to me is not just a place where we are just throwing what ever comes in our mind. For some people it is the matter of life and death. You know it took me 2 years to join? We have as our posters likes of Pshamim, Mastan Khan and Muradk, Nabil, Irfan Baloch etc who are taking time out from their very busy life (I presume). Respect and be respected. Plus how do you know that I am a big "dude"?

Also I am proposing to the admins that this forum should be divided between youth wing and seniors. Just an idea.

-Ive responded to this in ur wall since its off topic and all...

Now coming back to the topic.

Provide a generation leap over the old fleet of F-7P/PG/Mirages.

Agreed and understood but what was the purpose of these old planes? In the war time counter enemy threat. At that time they were fiting perfectly in our strategy but times have changed. I am getting this idea that we are just replacing old furniture with new ones. This should not be the case.

-Well I'll respond to you like this...if the new furniture comes in with a brand new exotic design, with ur seller willing to give u additional furniture and provide you with the infrastructure to build new ones in your home....that and the new furniture is like a generation ahead (its more smoothly carved, more stylish,more resistive to damage and all)...
Thats the thing I conclude from JFT replacing F-7/Mirage series...

Provide a cost effective replacement of older airframes with newer airframes.

Again it goes back the same point above.


BVR capability and state of the art EW suite in a manageable price range.

This does make alot of sense if it is true

SD-10A/B BVR with 90+ Kms range on it, KLJ-07 being on par with the likes of RC-400 according to a PAF pilot.On to the EW suite you should check the information pool to actually get an idea of how good it is...
According to Nabil-05 at one time we were looking for a customized Spectra EW suite (yes the same used on rafale) as an upgrade because the current EW suite is itself very advanced....

-Something to build on...Doing upgrades isn't the only u can make a jet more potent, imagine the likes of a 5th gen WVRAAM (like A-darter) on JF-17...

Now can we make it to the level of Grippen? If we can and that is the plan and then indeed I 100% agree.

Interesting you mention it cuz Gripen NG will use A-darter as a primary WVRAAM in the near future...
but then again JF-17 isn't made to be a higher end fighter .... like the gripen... and see the cost difference..JFT at 15-20 million dollars and gripen at 40-60million dollars

-Provide the basis of aircraft manufacturing industry in Pakistan which will in turn create more job opportunities.

Graet idea

-Provide a basic fighter that can cope with most threats out there on its turf...

Do not agree at all. We do not need just a basic fighter. We need more advanced and compatible
machine. A basic fighter would not be able to cope with most threats. This is where I have difference of opinion with most other posters.

The problem is it is not in your hands or mine, Its in the hands of PAF, what they feel is good enough,
PAF on one side is claiming that JF-17 is responsible for changing their doctrines and all .. and here we have u saying its not good enough....

and now I know it'll get dragged in to PAF shouldve invested more in J-11B's and stuff

Just take the whole R&D cost that Pak gave + 40 JF-17's cost and then calculate how much J-11B's at 50 million could we get...

250+ (15 X 40) = 850 million dollars = 17 J-11B's and then other costs like
cost of training + extensive maintenance + supplies/spares - TOT (transfer of technology) and know how

 

[Farooqi1]

-Ive responded to this in ur wall since its off topic and all...




-Well I'll respond to you like this...if the new furniture comes in with a brand new exotic design, with ur seller willing to give u additional furniture and provide you with the infrastructure to build new ones in your home....that and the new furniture is like a generation ahead (its more smoothly carved, more stylish,more resistive to damage and all)...
Thats the thing I conclude from JFT replacing F-7/Mirage series...



SD-10A/B BVR with 90+ Kms range on it, KLJ-07 being on par with the likes of RC-400 according to a PAF pilot.On to the EW suite you should check the information pool to actually get an idea of how good it is...
According to Nabil-05 at one time we were looking for a customized Spectra EW suite (yes the same used on rafale) as an upgrade because the current EW suite is itself very advanced....



Interesting you mention it cuz Gripen NG will use A-darter as a primary WVRAAM in the near future...
but then again JF-17 isn't made to be a higher end fighter .... like the gripen... and see the cost difference..JFT at 15-20 million dollars and gripen at 40-60million dollars




The problem is it is not in your hands or mine, Its in the hands of PAF, what they feel is good enough,
PAF on one side is claiming that JF-17 is responsible for changing their doctrines and all .. and here we have u saying its not good enough....

and now I know it'll get dragged in to PAF shouldve invested more in J-11B's and stuff

Just take the whole R&D cost that Pak gave + 40 JF-17's cost and then calculate how much J-11B's at 50 million could we get...

250+ (15 X 40) = 850 million dollars = 17 J-11B's and then other costs like
cost of training + extensive maintenance + supplies/spares - TOT (transfer of technology) and know how

Arguments for the sake of arguments would not do it. Remember I am not the enemy.

Does not matter what I am saying. Neither should you beleive waht PAF saying because of their ego. Apprantly we all have given up and settled for less. This not how nations are build.

I would not give up and settle for less. I would make JF-17 as potent and as compatible to Grippen and F-16 as possible for 2 reasons
Our own defense
Export Potential

If we could make money from exports then we should try to improve PAF as much as possible. First this limitation of single power plant should be scraped. All we need to do is identify the real threat and have resolve towards state of the art equipments. We ourselves have limited us. Every thing is possible with commitment. Not by giving up and bury our heads in the sand.

 

[Armstrong]

@ Farooqi Sahib : From one accountant to another - Yeh saraa paisaa ke maslaaa hai ! If and When the PAF has enough funds available they'd go for even better acquisitions (the J-11Bs) and upgrade the JF-17 all the way to the Gripen and F-16 Level (though judging by the words of many over here...its already pretty much comparable to earlier F-16s in many respects and comparable to latter blocks in others) ! However as of now, like the rest of Pakistan's institutions, the PAF is criminally short of funds and so the JF-17 with gradual upgrades over the years and other force multipliers (SAMs, Missiles and AWACs) are what we can go for at best and to be honest they, in my noobish opinion, they provide remarkable value-for-money !

 

[abdulbarijan]

Arguments for the sake of arguments would not do it. Remember I am not the enemy.

Does not matter what I am saying. Neither should you beleive waht PAF saying because of their ego. Apprantly we all have given up and settled for less. This not how nations are build.

I would not give up and settle for less. I would make JF-17 as potent and as compatible to Grippen and F-16 as possible for 2 reasons
Our own defense
Export Potential

If we could make money from exports then we should try to improve PAF as much as possible. First this limitation of single power plant should be scraped. All we need to do is identify the real threat and have resolve towards state of the art equipments. We ourselves have limited us. Every thing is possible with commitment. Not by giving up and bury our heads in the sand.

There is no such thing as a limitation on twin engines as F-6 itself was a twin engined jet..
Your target is of getting it closer to gripen and F-16's

Thats not the target of PAF or china

Our target is "to produce the maximum in the minimum"

and hands down we have exceeded the standards required...thats why you hear people calling JFT "A pleasant surprise for PAF"

If you take a look at senior member posts the avionics of current JF-17's are second or according to some on par with the block 52's

JF-17 already has proved itself to be a great WVR fighter by defeating F-16 A/B on regular basis...

You should really read the first pages of info pool of JFT...they are full with useful information!

 

[TAC]

Arguments for the sake of arguments would not do it. Remember I am not the enemy.

Does not matter what I am saying. Neither should you beleive waht PAF saying because of their ego. Apprantly we all have given up and settled for less. This not how nations are build.

I would not give up and settle for less. I would make JF-17 as potent and as compatible to Grippen and F-16 as possible for 2 reasons
Our own defense
Export Potential

If we could make money from exports then we should try to improve PAF as much as possible. First this limitation of single power plant should be scraped. All we need to do is identify the real threat and have resolve towards state of the art equipments. We ourselves have limited us. Every thing is possible with commitment. Not by giving up and bury our heads in the sand.

Once again I would ask you to get a grip on reality. What PAF is saying because of their ego?? PAF has not made ANY dumb claims about the JF-17 which later fail to materialise. On the contrary they have been modest and realistic in their claims about JF-17 --only classing it above the F-16A/B. The JF-17 is proof that PAF is very much aware of of what it needs to do and doing a remarkable job within very limited resources - as opposite as you can get to burying your head in the sand.

You think your advice to make JF-17 as potent as possible is some sort of revelation? What do you think PAF has been trying to do for the last decade - again within limited funds and even less people willing to sell required tech?

As for you not being 'the enemy' -- this is an anonymous board - I don't know who you are. However your persistant - 'JF-17 is not good enough' + PAF should buy from countries (like Russia) that will not sell to Pakistan and pay with phantom billions that Pakistan does not have does make you wonder.

 

[Edevelop]

After DSI was first introduced on JF-17, it seems to be a highly successful feature that the Chinese added DSI into J-10B, J-20 and recently JL-9 trainer...

If you note other fighter jets like F-16, Mirage 2k, LCA, they all loose speed in the air while turning.
JF-17 on the other hand is successful and beats them. How? well its all because of DSI and huge leading edges....

 

[baqai]

What is the current inventory PAF operating and how soon can old F7 squadrons be replaced?

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

 

[Farooqi1]

Once again I would ask you to get a grip on reality. What PAF is saying because of their ego?? PAF has not made ANY dumb claims about the JF-17 which later fail to materialise. On the contrary they have been modest and realistic in their claims about JF-17 --only classing it above the F-16A/B. The JF-17 is proof that PAF is very much aware of of what it needs to do and doing a remarkable job within very limited resources - as opposite as you can get to burying your head in the sand.

You think your advice to make JF-17 as potent as possible is some sort of revelation? What do you think PAF has been trying to do for the last decade - again within limited funds and even less people willing to sell required tech?

As for you not being 'the enemy' -- this is an anonymous board - I don't know who you are. However your persistant - 'JF-17 is not good enough' + PAF should buy from countries (like Russia) that will not sell to Pakistan and pay with phantom billions that Pakistan does not have does make you wonder.

Once again please go to PAF Falcon site. The first thing you would see is JF-17 Pakistan new lethal machine.

Where did I advice PAF to make it as potent as possible? I just expressed my opinion. Please read my post again. It is you all who are calling it medium tech not intended to be Grippen etc etc. You all have given up and settled for less.

And wishing that we should buy from Russia or try to buy from Russia makes me enemy? And how do you know they would not sell it to us? Things can change in today's international political environment and are changing. Why the hell Putin is visiting a country like Pakistan who according to the rest of the world is broke and failed terrorist state WHICH I DON"T BELIEVE AT ALL. Who according to some has nothing to offer to Russia. Think the opportunity and what could be achieved.

As far as Phantom Dollars are concerned do you know how much India paid in 2000 to Russia for 140 SUMKI and TOT? 3+ $Billion and China paid $2.1 billion for SU 27 and TOT. Now go figure.

You know what I am turning out to be a big fan of Mr. Mastan Khan. I believe as per your thinking he could be an enemy too. Grow up kiddos.

 

[Farooqi1]

Nope, half-way through the ACCA right now with an intention for going for CFA later on and make a career out of Investment Finance as a buy-side analyst or if the people around me continue speaking about the abysmal prospects of a buy-side analyst in Pakistan...I might go for ICAEW instead and continue on with a career in accounting, though very reluctantly !

Right now conditions are not good for Investment Finance, at least not in US. ICAEW is a good choice and you should not be reluctant about it. But if your aptitude is more toward Finance then you will get bored.

Coming back to JF-17 I believe it is a very good platform to be build on. In my opinion and again in my opinion we should try to make the best out of it and don't just make it a low end machine. But also at this point let us not expect more then what it can do under its current capabilities. As per Nabil there are plans for Stealthy version coming out to be at the end of this year. I believe it is a very good news indeed off course if it is a credible news.

If you note other fighter jets like F-16, Mirage 2k, LCA, they all loose speed in the air while turning.
JF-17 on the other hand is successful and beats them. How? well its all because of DSI and huge leading edges....

Great news cb4. Is it really proven? I mean is there any documented evidence of this quality of JF-17?

 

[atlantis_cn]

Once again please go to PAF Falcon site. The first thing you would see is JF-17 Pakistan new lethal machine.

Where did I advice PAF to make it as potent as possible? I just expressed my opinion. Please read my post again. It is you all who are calling it medium tech not intended to be Grippen etc etc. You all have given up and settled for less.

And wishing that we should buy from Russia or try to buy from Russia makes me enemy? And how do you know they would not sell it to us?

As far as Phantom Dollars are concerned do you know how much India paid in 2000 to Russia for 140 SUMKI and TOT? 3+ $Billion and China paid $2.1 billion for SU 27 and TOT. Now go figure.

Why you people lived in the States so care about PAF? Why do you not ask more money for your people's food, water, education, security and economy? Are you really a patriot? Or are you only care about your own face? Wake up! It's not PAF so desperately need more Su-30s which it cannot afford. It's your brother and sister who actually live in Pakistan who need the fund and very desperately. Expensive warplanes can save your face, that's maybe right temporarily. But it will not save the country, it will only make it worse. Why you people who call yourself patriot can't get it?

Please! Do not be another Mastankhan, we have got enough, thank you!

 

[TAC]

Once again please go to PAF Falcon site. The first thing you would see is JF-17 Pakistan new lethal machine.

Where did I advice PAF to make it as potent as possible? I just expressed my opinion. Please read my post again. It is you all who are calling it medium tech not intended to be Grippen etc etc. You all have given up and settled for less.

And wishing that we should buy from Russia or try to buy from Russia makes me enemy? And how do you know they would not sell it to us?

As far as Phantom Dollars are concerned do you know how much India paid in 2000 to Russia for 140 SUMKI and TOT? 3+ $Billion and China paid $2.1 billion for SU 27 and TOT. Now go figure.

PAF Falcon site? Here's a news flash for you to 'go figure' -- THATS NOT AN OFFICIAL PAF SITE!!! So the views given on it are some individuals view not PAF saying it due to 'ego'. You are seriously holding PAF responsible for something some random person on the net has said??? And what is wrong with calling JF-17 a lethal machine? It is a fighter aircraft - isn't a fighter aircraft a 'lethal machine' by default???

How do I know that Russia will not sell to us? well lets see now --- they've refused to sell to us for the last 60 odd years - that might be a little clue, India has just signed billions of dollers worth of upgrade deals and just signed up to a $30 billion deal for 5th gen fighters. What does Pakistan want to by 18 SU-30's on credit??? I can see the Russians pondering that one for all of 2 seconds.

So India payed $3 billion for 140 SU30MKI's and also including TOT did they?? -- care to give a source for that ludicrous figure?

So China payed only $2.1 billion for TOT of SU27? you seem to conveniently forget that this was after they had already bought 100's of SU27's -- If you can show that Pakistan can afford 100's of SU27's and pay $2.1 billion in hard cash for TOT on top -- your example is a good one. Until then you 'go figure'. While you're at it you might also want 'go figure' that by the governments own projection it looks like Pakistan's foriegn currency reserves will probably go down by half over the next 12-14 months. Hell of a time to splash out on some expensive aircraft that we have no infrastructure for - isn't it?

While every sensible person and PAF correctly designate the JF-17 as medium tech -- this does not mean that everyone apart from you has 'given up and settled for less'. From the outset the JF-17 was designed to be as cheap as possible while still coming with all the key capabilities required and that is exactly what it does.

 

[Farooqi1]

Why you people lived in the States so care about PAF? Why do you not ask more money for your people's food, water, education, security and economy? Are you really a patriot? Or are you only care about your own face? Wake up! It's not PAF so desperately need more Su-30s which it cannot afford. It's your brother and sister who actually live in Pakistan who need the fund and very desperately. Expensive warplanes can save your face, that's maybe right temporarily. But it will not save the country, it will only make it worse. Why you people who call yourself patriot can't get it?

Please! Do not be another Mastankhan, we have got enough, thank you!

You are right but unfortunately we can not turn our back from the defense too. If you read my earlier posts I am wishing again and again that let there be no war. But unfortunately that wish of mine can not com true. Also this is Pakistan Defense Forum and PAF sub Forum. What else could we talk about over here. I believe your post even though I agree with most of what you said was totally off topic. And why not another Mastan khan? Just because he is trying to bring the truth out?

PAF Falcon site? Here's a news flash for you to 'go figure' -- THATS NOT AN OFFICIAL PAF SITE!!! So the views given on it are some individuals view not PAF saying it due to 'ego'. You are seriously holding PAF responsible for something some random person on the net has said??? And what is wrong with calling JF-17 a lethal machine? It is a fighter aircraft - isn't a fighter aircraft a 'lethal machine' by default???

How do I know that Russia will not sell to us? well lets see now --- they've refused to sell to us for the last 60 odd years - that might be a little clue, India has just signed billions of dollers worth of upgrade deals and just signed up to a $30 billion deal for 5th gen fighters. What does Pakistan want to by 18 SU-30's on credit??? I can see the Russians pondering that one for all of 2 seconds.

So India payed $3 billion for 140 SU30MKI's and also including TOT did they?? -- care to give a source for that ludicrous figure?

So China payed only $2.1 billion for TOT of SU27? you seem to conveniently forget that this was after they had already bought 100's of SU27's -- If you can show that Pakistan can afford 100's of SU27's and pay $2.1 billion in hard cash for TOT on top -- your example is a good one. Until then you 'go figure'. While you're at it you might also want 'go figure' that by the governments own projection it looks like Pakistan's foriegn currency reserves will probably go down by half over the next 12-14 months. Hell of a time to splash out on some expensive aircraft that we have no infrastructure for - isn't it?

While every sensible person and PAF correctly designate the JF-17 as medium tech -- this does not mean that everyone apart from you has 'given up and settled for less'. From the outset the JF-17 was designed to be as cheap as possible while still coming with all the key capabilities required and that is exactly what it does.

Research and you would find out about Indian contract and Chinese contract and dare to prove me wrong. Nobody is suggesting that we should buy 100 of SU 30 or Su 27. Once again ego my man ego.

"Hell of a time to splash out on some expensive aircraft that we have no infrastructure for-isn't it?" Well Mr. genius who is asking them to buy right now? Once again sir unfortunately this is the reality and necessity. You don't have a choice or rather you do have choice as follows:

Bury your head in the sand (and go after people like me) or accept the reality and do something about it.

 

[TAC]

Research and you would find out about Indian contract and Chinese contract and dare to prove me wrong. Nobody is suggesting that we should buy 100 of SU 30 or Su 27.

Even if the figures you have given are correct (which they are not) you yourself have said that the figures for the Indian purchase are from 2000 -- that is 12 years ago. Do you think prices might have gone up a little bit in 12 years. And also did Russia make any offers to sell to Pakistan in 2000 (or ever in the last 60 years) that I missed?? And even if it had been willing to sell in 2000 (which it was not) you might want to double check Pakistans economic condition and ability to buy back in 2000. So overall I have no idea what you are trying to prove with these 12 year old incorrect figures.

 

[Farooqi1]

Even if the figures you have given are correct (which they are not) you yourself have said that the figures for the Indian purchase are from 2000 -- that is 12 years ago. Do you think prices might have gone up a little bit in 12 years. And also did Russia make any offers to sell to Pakistan in 2000 (or ever in the last 60 years) that I missed?? And even if it had been willing to sell in 2000 (which it was not) you might want to double check Pakistans economic condition and ability to buy back in 2000. So overall I have no idea what you are trying to prove with these 12 year old incorrect figures.

yar, sir, young man, Bhai (what ever you prefer) it is the Idea or policy I am talking about. We spent billions on nuclear and missile development. We got the money from somewhere. As far as i am incorrect on prices (which you insisted twice just to prove me wrong) so go to wiki and please hold on before you jump and wiki has quoted its source from BBC that is for Indian contract of MKI. Similarly wiki has quoted for the Chinese contract. I don't believe all or anything wiki says but if it gives you source then it makes it a little credible. As per Pshamim in 1994 we had the greatest chance buying from Russia so you missed that. And I believe we now have another chance only we just don't have the money. About couple of pages back a poster has posted that a Sukohi private jet has been seen on Karachi Airport couple of days ago and he went on suggesting just what I have been saying all along. He mentioned Algeria MK2 and so on. Other then getting mad at me I humbly request that you search for that post and it might click for you. 12 years old prices young man was just for the reference.