PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[A1Kaid]

Any plans for Pakistan to indigenously manufacture in part or whole the J-10C? Or is PAF really just focused on the 5th gen project with Turkiye...

 

[SQ8]

Look into older radars like pulse Doppler radars (80’s tech ) like used by F-16. Did those radars have the capability to transmit data ? Let’s say NO. Then is that reason why link-16 was introduced as a data link - to share and transmit data.

However, do the PESA and AESA radars (modern tech) possess the capability to transmit data ?
Would that be redundancy, since data link is a dedicated module for exchanging data while a radar has many other functions to perform also.

Data link = a link for transmitting data.
Without a link there is no transmission. Even if a Radar is “talking” to another radar without any other system able to talk - it is still using a data link.

"high end" data links will not eliminate latency and so off board compute resources is not really an option for sensor fusion, signal processing, radar or the mission computer. But Advanced Battle Management System (ABMS) can fuse data from all nodes, sensors and IoTs in the cloud and leverage AI to improve battlefield effectiveness within line of sight. Here the AESA radar is really useful on the fighter and is used to transmit data at high speeds, first generation APG-79 could transmit 128 mbps 15 years ago, today it's much faster.

To answer your question both (chip and data link) are equally important.

The AESA is still acting as a Data-Link. I think we need to decouple the term from dedicated comm-links. At the end Link-16 or 22 are transmission standards and any equipment capable of adapting them can operate on the same net.
An interesting paper I read a few years ago was to use the 5G antenna’s which are mostly moving to ESA and beamforming to form a low level radar net; giving a country a secondary capabilityx

 

[RAMPAGE]

Any plans for Pakistan to indigenously manufacture in part or whole the J-10C? Or is PAF really just focused on the 5th gen project with Turkiye...

Seems we are not doing either.

 

[TheSolution]

Any plans for Pakistan to indigenously manufacture in part or whole the J-10C? Or is PAF really just focused on the 5th gen project with Turkiye...

What's the benefit of manufacturing our J-10C's in Pakistan? Will the overall cost be slightly cheaper? Will we learn something we didn't learn from manufacturing JF-17s?

 

[GriffinsRule]

What's the benefit of manufacturing our J-10C's in Pakistan? Will the overall cost be slightly cheaper? Will we learn something we didn't learn from manufacturing JF-17s?

Cost will be significantly higher.

 

[MastanKhan]

Guys were talking about the J-10C aerodynamics, radar, missiles etc that's been talking about millions of times already. Last part was comparing PL-15's dual-pulse rocket motor and Meteor's ramjet motor design mechanism of how they work. And the advantage and drawbacks of the missiles.

Say PL-15 from firing to acceleration to high speed of mach 3 plus only took few seconds, if enemy fighter jet got locked on from 0-30km range there is no way to escape. And you can let the missile's own momentum gliding to the target mid range at good speed. And then fire up the second pulse from 80-100km plus and accelerate to the target. So, PL-15 got a very strong no-escape zone at close range and long range against target.

Meteor on the other hand is relatively slow picking up speed in the beginning due to more drag of the ramjet design. But once it picks up speed it last longer than conventional rocket, but once the rocket motor stop, then again due to the ramjet design the missile speed will decelerate very fast and no longer a threat to the target. So, there is a relative safe zone at short distance and also at long distance for the meteor because of the speed.


Also talk about Rafale got some fancy new techs like voice command in the cockpit. The thing was when Indian pilots start using some of these functions, it doesn't work as imagined because of the Indian pilot's accent. The mission computer of Rafale do not understand what the Indian pilots are trying to say with the heavy accent...........

Hi,

If you locked the enemy at 30 km range---you would already be dead by enemy's missile.

Any plans for Pakistan to indigenously manufacture in part or whole the J-10C? Or is PAF really just focused on the 5th gen project with Turkiye...

Hi,

Why would Paf want to assemble J10's in pakistan and make the assembly plant a target for the enemy strike.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Hi,

If you locked the enemy at 30 km range---you would already be dead by enemy's missile.



Hi,

Why would Paf want to assemble J10's in pakistan and make the assembly plant a target for the enemy strike.

Not necessarily. Missile range degrades by quite a lot at lower altitudes. Ranges of over 100KM are usually achieved by sending the missile in a high parabolic trajectory.

 

[SQ8]

Not necessarily. Missile range degrades by quite a lot at lower altitudes. Ranges of over 100KM are usually achieved by sending the missile in a high parabolic trajectory.

Altitude(incl. relative) & velocity of both launch platform and target

 

[Chak Bamu]

Thank You All.. Then we know china is equal or better in data link but in semi conductor they lack behind west and USA. This means west aircraft will have edge on computing power?

I am certainly not an expert when it comes to Data-links, electronics etc... But I think one thing needs to be said:

There are some considerations that are more important that raw speed (& therefore extreme miniaturization). Reliability & longevity are very important because a smart phone circuit malfunctioning does not have similar consequences as a circuit malfunctioning in an aircraft. Military grade electronics have much more demanding specifications & to achieve those cutting-edge miniaturization is not conducive. What this means is that current manufacturing capability of China does not necessarily translate into a decisive edge to West Europe / USA.

IIRC F-16 computers operated at around 100 KIPS (or less), even when consumer electronics had gone beyond 1 MIPS (early 90s).

 

[Signalian]

Data link = a link for transmitting data.
Without a link there is no transmission. Even if a Radar is “talking” to another radar without any other system able to talk - it is still using a data link.


The AESA is still acting as a Data-Link. I think we need to decouple the term from dedicated comm-links. At the end Link-16 or 22 are transmission standards and any equipment capable of adapting them can operate on the same net.
An interesting paper I read a few years ago was to use the 5G antenna’s which are mostly moving to ESA and beamforming to form a low level radar net; giving a country a secondary capabilityx

For UAVS, worked on a separate data link module by itself. No radar involved. So considered it as dedicated link for data transfer. Probably for fighters, radar has many tasks to perform.

 

[tphuang]

Thank You All.. Then we know china is equal or better in data link but in semi conductor they lack behind west and USA. This means west aircraft will have edge on computing power?

Do not make the mistake of overestimating the chips used in military aircraft. Think about how old F-22 is and what kind of military grade chips were available at the time?

Even in China, the chips used in modern military aircraft are not produced by SMIC or YMTC. Those are not rugged enough to handle military applications. Similarly, the processors used in your typical F-35s is way behind what's available commercially.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Do not make the mistake of overestimating the chips used in military aircraft. Think about how old F-22 is and what kind of military grade chips were available at the time?

Even in China, the chips used in modern military aircraft are not produced by SMIC or YMTC. Those are not rugged enough to handle military applications. Similarly, the processors used in your typical F-35s is way behind what's available commercially.

Fun fact. A lot of the chips used on Chinese and American planes are actually fabbed by the same company .

 

[SQ8]

For UAVS, worked on a separate data link module by itself. No radar involved. So considered it as dedicated link for data transfer. Probably for fighters, radar has many tasks to perform.

If one thinks about this and the aspect of governance from its prrimary controller - all you really have to do is write code for the DSP and have the Main processor call to it when required.

 

[siegecrossbow]

If one thinks about this and the aspect of governance from its prrimary controller - all you really have to do is write code for the DSP and have the Main processor call to it when required.

Looking at this is bringing back PTSD from my DSP class during undergrad.

 

[dbc]

A source for article please. I want to read into this. Thx


Talk as in send data in bits. I didn’t mean Comms

No source on APG-79, it was many years ago it came up in an academic discussion @berkeley

APG-77 has been tested up-to 1Gbps

For the testing, the F-22 Raptor’s AN/APG-77 radar was linked to an L-3 Communications modem. The modem is software-programmable, which means it can be adapted to send and receive using various protocols (“waveforms”). For the test, they used a modified CDL [Radar Common Data Link] waveform, and the entire array of elements in the radar. They then demonstrated the transfer of a 72 MB synthetic aperture radar image in 3.5 seconds at a data rate of 274 Mbps. That would have taken 48 minutes using Link 16, which is the standard data exchange system in US and allied equipment. In practice, that means the sensor data is downloaded and communicated only when the plane lands. What if that sort of thing could happen in near-real time instead? Aviation Week reports that the researchers eventually demonstrated lab transmission rates of 548 Mbps, and receive data rates of up to 1 Gbps. Elec Tricks: Turning AESA Radars Into Broadband Comlinks - Defense Industry Daily F-22 Cutaway(click to view full) The F/A-22 and F-35's advanced built-in radars and electronics can be levered to turn these planes into electronic warfare aircraft. Meanwhile, some of the key trends in military I/O highlight the increasing need for high-bandwidth links. That need is biting with... www.defenseindustrydaily.com