PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[TaimiKhan]

Exactly my point, why I'm so much interested in a reply and explanation from you.

Its just what i heard, as the argument was that we need a trusted and reliable option for now, as chinese one still needs to mature as a system, which will only happen once it is produced in mass, used in hundreds for few years, chinese master it, technology was its matured and has good infrastructure to back its maintenance.

 

[TheSolution]

Well just can say, not PAF.

Aircraft for the PN??

 

[SQ8]

But in fact there are some here who still believe in his lies ...

It is the confidence that sells them to mostly those who themselves have no technical understanding nor bother to research themselves.

ToT will never come, yeah u can get overhauling facility since russian engines need overhaul after their stated span life, thus we cant send engines to russia as its costly and time consuming.
We can do it more efficiently here in Pakistan.


Well i am not sure on my own, i said what i heard. For now its AL-31, may have changed since i last heard.
And i heard way back in 2020 that J-10s been finalized and then i stated in mid or earlier of 2021 that J-10s are ready and coming.

Now let me say this also, one new procurement will come in end of 2023 or 2024.

So lets see.

Dieno, i hardly post, but when i post, i know what i am posting.

The ToT was hard to swallow(although it is a VERY broad term) - getting the same deal as the RD-93s made more sense.

 

[That Guy]

Again, could you please explain why you seem to be so sure, they will come again with Russian AL-31FN engines? From all we know since mid-2019 not a single J-10C was again built with Russian engines and now you suggest, Pakistan will again use the older less reliable standard. Also, if they are to be delivered soon, why haven't we seen any of them?

I just see no logic behind returning to the Russian engine.



Nope. it means that claim was wrong too as the claim will use AL-31FN:

Anyway, let's wait ... in a few weeks we'll know,

While I don't know much of what's going on, I can say this...

Pakistan has a history of not using Chinese engines, even when buying Chinese vehicles.

As far as we know, the Chinese have offered to replace future thunder Russian engines with Chinese ones, something that Pakistan has rejected so far.

Even the Z-10 was rejected primarily due to its the engine, something I hear the Chinese took seriously enough to fix and upgrade their existing fleet.

IF Pakistan buys the J-10C (it's still a big if) with a Chinese engine (an even bigger if), then I'd consider China's engines to have gotten to a point that they can be considered reliable, and have gotten over their quality, and life expectancy problems that Chinese engines have historically faced.

 

[baqai]

Well just can say, not PAF.

From what i know ours have been training on their own planes, not leased or rented.

PN, dual engine dual seat ... J-15? am i close enough?

Edit: lets see how the rumor mills have been rolling :p

 

[White and Green with M/S]

PN, dual engine dual seat ... J-15? am i close enough?

Your answer is big NO because of design is Russian based (Su-33)

 

[That Guy]

PN, dual engine dual seat ... J-15? am i close enough?

Edit: lets see how the rumor mills have been rolling :p

Nope. Flankers will never appear in any Pakistani military branch's service.

And Chinese will never sell them.

My guess is that if it's a fighter he's talking about, then it's a naval version of a single engine fighter jet, as the PN is the only other branch that uses fighter jets.

 

[baqai]

Your answer is big NO because of design is Russian based (Su-33)

hush abhi thoray mazay tu lainay du bhai ... dekho bari mushkil sai @Deino ku hansi aai hai

 

[tphuang]

I find the claim of AL-31FN on J-10CP to be quite dubious.

The Chinese sources have said that export of J-10 to Pakistan is only becoming a reality now due to the fact that WS-10B has finally shown itself to be reliable on J-10C. Previously, having to get export license from Russians for AL-31FN for 20 to 30 J-10s was a difficult ask. It was one thing to get permission for 150 RD-93s + spares. It was quite another thing to get it for a much smaller quantity.

Moreover, China has not bought any AL-31FNs from the Russians for a long time. In fact, the only aircraft still in production using AL-31 is J-15s. That's due to the additional expected requirements of naval version of AL-31s. In fact, getting enough AL-31F/FN from Russians on time have always been an issue that limited China's ability to produce J-10s and J-11s. Keep in mind that Russians will have to produce enough AL-31s for its domestic fleet + export market. Reliance on AL-31s is also one of the limiting factors to the low production rates of J-20 until the last couple of years when WS-10C is finally available.

So given that we have not seen any new AL-31FN orders in the past 3 to 5 years, I'm not sure where PAF would get its Russian engines from. Since we are expecting full delivery of J-10CPs in a couple of months, such an order with Russia should have been announced a couple of years ago. If we assume that negotiation for J-10CP concluded sometimes by mid to late 2020s, that would not even leave the Russians enough time to produce them by second half of 2021 to be installed on those aircraft. Therefore, I don't think this actually passes the smell test.

But we will find out in a couple of months what the truth is.

 

[MastanKhan]

Paksitan indeed got as per your claim JH-7, J-15, J-16, J-20, 055 DDG and the Liaoning last week, so indeed I got 'bit'ch' slapped about everything you negated about pakistan! Or wait, who claimed all this stuff and now got 'bit'ch' slapped about everything he claimed about pakistan!?

Anyway again, you should consult a doctor, Tourette syndrome is quite annoying for others.

Hi,

We don't need those items at this time. If we do---we will get them.

In the US---personal disabilities are not annoying or looked down upon---.

But it looks like just like Defense matters---you are also clueless to what " Tourette Syndrome is ".

I often tell people---don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

 

[araz]

I find the claim of AL-31FN on J-10CP to be quite dubious.

The Chinese sources have said that export of J-10 to Pakistan is only becoming a reality now due to the fact that WS-10B has finally shown itself to be reliable on J-10C. Previously, having to get export license from Russians for AL-31FN for 20 to 30 J-10s was a difficult ask. It was one thing to get permission for 150 RD-93s + spares. It was quite another thing to get it for a much smaller quantity.

Moreover, China has not bought any AL-31FNs from the Russians for a long time. In fact, the only aircraft still in production using AL-31 is J-15s. That's due to the additional expected requirements of naval version of AL-31s. In fact, getting enough AL-31F/FN from Russians on time have always been an issue that limited China's ability to produce J-10s and J-11s. Keep in mind that Russians will have to produce enough AL-31s for its domestic fleet + export market. Reliance on AL-31s is also one of the limiting factors to the low production rates of J-20 until the last couple of years when WS-10C is finally available.

So given that we have not seen any new AL-31FN orders in the past 3 to 5 years, I'm not sure where PAF would get its Russian engines from. Since we are expecting full delivery of J-10CPs in a couple of months, such an order with Russia should have been announced a couple of years ago. If we assume that negotiation for J-10CP concluded sometimes by mid to late 2020s, that would not even leave the Russians enough time to produce them by second half of 2021 to be installed on those aircraft. Therefore, I don't think this actually passes the smell test.

But we will find out in a couple of months what the truth is.

@tphuang and @Deino.
I think if one looks at this conundrum it is very confusing. The arguments both for and against AL31FN are very cogent. The problem remains the lack of information about the Chinese engines. Basic information like thrust, MTBO, ability to produce in numbers is lacking. On the other hand the timing of the purchase points to PAF waiting for the WS10 to mature.
No one can deny that Chinese are very new in engine manufacturing. We know from looking at development of engines that newer engines often face reliability/technical issues which need ironing out.
Looking at it from PAF'S perspective they have so far resisted a transfer over to WS13 in spite of Chinese insistence. They have not even agreed to get the RD93MA for the same reason(possibly). So my question remains why is it not plausible for PAF's J10 to have AL31 FN? It may be that with the advent of WS10 the Russians no longer have any interest in keeping AL31FN away from PAF since IAF has not bought any planes. PAF now have options and the simple adage of "if you cannot beat them join them" applies here.
I understand that the fact the Chinese have not bought any AL31s for 3 years means the news lacks credibility. Iam just saying we will need to wait and see how/when the information is released as arguments on both sides are very strong and no side can provide satisfactory answers as to why they feel the other possibility does not exist.
Regards
A

 

[zhxy]

AL-31F or WS-10. The final decision belongs to Pakistan.

If Pakistan decides to choose Al-31F, China will integrate it on J-10CP

 

[Deino]

@tphuang and @Deino.
I think if one looks at this conundrum it is very confusing. The arguments both for and against AL31FN are very cogent. The problem remains the lack of information about the Chinese engines. Basic information like thrust, MTBO, ability to produce in numbers is lacking. On the other hand the timing of the purchase points to PAF waiting for the WS10 to mature.
No one can deny that Chinese are very new in engine manufacturing. We know from looking at development of engines that newer engines often face reliability/technical issues which need ironing out.
Looking at it from PAF'S perspective they have so far resisted a transfer over to WS13 in spite of Chinese insistence. They have not even agreed to get the RD93MA for the same reason(possibly). So my question remains why is it not plausible for PAF's J10 to have AL31 FN? It may be that with the advent of WS10 the Russians no longer have any interest in keeping AL31FN away from PAF since IAF has not bought any planes. PAF now have options and the simple adage of "if you cannot beat them join them" applies here.
I understand that the fact the Chinese have not bought any AL31s for 3 years means the news lacks credibility. Iam just saying we will need to wait and see how/when the information is released as arguments on both sides are very strong and no side can provide satisfactory answers as to why they feel the other possibility does not exist.
Regards
A

I fully agree wits what you said, we need to wait, but since you asked for an argument: simply since we haven‘t seen a new J-10C with that engine since mis-2019. That alone surely does not exclude the AL-31, but if these planes are to believers by March, then they are already built - and according to most reliable sources, PAF personnel is well in training already - but agin we haven‘t seen any since mid-2019.

So, agreed, surely China could find a way to hide this but given how reports and rumours on major news are spread and leaked, I see barely a chance of this to happen.

 

[The Eagle]

When we talk about any procurement by PAF, no one should have slightest doubt that PAF will compromise over quality, capability and proven V/s unproven tech. PAF chooses the best. There's only exception for new tech if it is indigenous or joint venture. Whether ally, friend or brother; PAF wouldn't compromise on quality.

 

[TAC]

Guys

is this a fly past by chinease plaaf planes celebrating your paf dat

or

A purchase,of j10c by Paf

We have no confirmation of the deal.any where out side of this interior minister statement who said fly past oh j10c

Listen to the full statements by the interior minister and dg ispr & you’ll have your answer.