PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[GOAT]

In a thread this old there are bound to be repititions so here's my attempt at an answer to this question from 6 months ago






And this is exactly right

Thank you that was very helpful.

 

[siegecrossbow]

I have read credible rumor that the PL-15 exported to Pakistan as a part of the J-10C package will not be PL-15E but the same version used in PLAAF.

 

[Bilal.]

In a thread this old there are bound to be repititions so here's my attempt at an answer to this question from 6 months ago






And this is exactly right

We don’t just have ROSE mirages. What about all the non-ROSE mirages? What utility will they have and should/will they continue to serve?

 

[JamD]

We don’t just have ROSE mirages. What about all the non-ROSE and ROSE I mirages? What utility will they have and should/will they continue to serve?

Good question. Honestly, I don't know enough. @Hodor can answer if he wants to.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

We don’t just have ROSE mirages. What about all the non-ROSE mirages? What utility will they have and should/will they continue to serve?

Good question. Honestly, I don't know enough. @Hodor can answer if he wants to.

tbh...is ROSE a necessity to deploy SOWs, especially fire-and-forget types like Ra'ad-I/II and IREK? I would think the non-ROSE Mirages can technically deploy those SOWs. There are even suppliers who'll give stand-alone hardpoints you can attach to any fighter and remotely fire said SOWs from the cockpit.

 

[Bilal.]

tbh...is ROSE a necessity to deploy SOWs, especially fire-and-forget types like Ra'ad-I/II and IREK? I would think the non-ROSE Mirages can technically deploy those SOWs. There are even suppliers who'll give stand-alone hardpoints you can attach to any fighter and remotely fire said SOWs from the cockpit.

South Africans do provide decoupled solutions like that where WI-FI connection is used to directly control the SOW launch and most likely that’s the case with H-SOWs plus the data link is also a separate pod. So maybe you are on point.

 

[kursed]

I have read credible rumor that the PL-15 exported to Pakistan as a part of the J-10C package will not be PL-15E but the same version used in PLAAF.

Not to go by rumors, but this would explain PLAAF reservations when the export to PAF topic first came up. Still I would take this as a rumor for now.

 

[IblinI]

J10C has defeated J16 and Su35 during PLAAF internal exercises and won the golden helmet 2,3 times in the past 5 years.

 

[HAIDER]

AL31 is Russian Engine without TVC. Chinese origin WS-10 Engine is lauded more reliable. No engine has TVC on J-10C. I agree with rest of the comments about TVC on single engine fighter jet that results in nothing but complexity of system, weight, maintenance hurdles and above all having very less of utilization during actual fight.

An old member from another forum quotes long ago.

the delivery of the vector thrust versions of the AL-31FN could mean two things:
1) the 2nd batch of J-10A's (from the 51st unit on) might be fitted with thrust vector engines to improve the agility of the jet to the max.

2) the delivery of those vector thrust engines means that they are starting to assemble the J-10C and the first prototype might role out in late 2006 or 2007. " ..

Also another good piece of info .


China’s J-10 comes of age with indigenous engine
By Greg Waldron21 May 2021

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The recent appearance of an operational Chengdu J-10C powered by a domestically produced engine marks a key moment for the single-engined type in the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).
As with so much in Chinese airpower, much of the J-10’s history is shrouded in mystery. It is understood that the type, which originated in the 1980s, traces its lineage to the J-9, a canard/delta fighter that was abandoned in 1980. It is also believed that the J-10 benefited from the 1980s Israel Aircraft Industries Lavi programme.

Source: Chinese social media
The first clear image of an operational J-10C with a WS-10 engine
The fighter was regarded as a state secret until January 2007, when official media finally disclosed that it had entered PLAAF service. A few months later, in May 2007, Russia’s Rosoboronexport arms agency announced a $300 million deal to sell 100 Saturn AL-31 engines for China’s planned J-10 fleet. Then, in late 2008, the J-10A made its public debut at Airshow China in Zhuhai.
Since that time, the AL-31 has been the key powerplant for all variants of the J-10, from the original J-10As to the far more advanced J-10Cs. Beijing always had plans for the J-10 to receive a local powerplant, the Shenyang WS-10 Taihang, but the challenges involved in developing aircraft engines forced it to stick with the Russian powerplant longer than planned.
Finally, in early May, it became clear that a corner had been turned: a J-10C in an operational unit was spotted with the WS-10.
As is typical for significant Chinese defence developments, there was no official statement. Rather, a clear image of an operational J-10C with the WS-10 appeared on social media. Beijing’s Global Times also covered a Chinese television report about the appearance of the WS-10-powered J-10C.
Andreas Rupprecht is the author of Modern Chinese Warplanes, an authoritative guide to mainland airpower. He was among the first observers to highlight the new development. He feels the J-10C news is highly significant.
“This cannot be overrated, and in fact is a true milestone not only for the J-10, but even more for the WS-10 programme since it marks an end of the reliance on the Russian AL-31 for all three major PLAAF fighters – at least production examples – namely the J-10C, [Shenyang] J-16 and [Chengdu] J-20,” he says.
He notes that a decade has passed since the J-10B first flew with a WS-10, and that the engine was tested on a J-10A even earlier. Finally, after years of refinement, it appears that the WS-10 is reliable and safe enough to power a single-engined fighter in active service.
Mounted inside the J-10, the WS-10 can be identified by a few subtle features. One is that the afterburner nozzle petals are notably wider on the WS-10 than on the AL-31. The WS-10 also has a ring structure around the interior of the nozzle that is absent on the AL-31. In images at least, the sheen of the alloy used on the WS-10 nozzle is also somewhat lighter than for the Russian engine.

Source: Chinese social media - 解放军报
A WS-10 powered J-10C taking off
The engine’s appearance with a J-10C continues the long development history of the J-10 programme from the somewhat rudimentary J-10A.
The J-10A, which is flown by China’s August 1st aerobatic display team, can be distinguished from later variants by the rectangular intake that is not flush with the fuselage. The variant was produced until late 2014, when production switched to the J-10B. The J-10As, however, have received updates, including the ability to carry the PL-10 infrared-guided missile.
The J-10B, distinguished by a diverterless supersonic inlet, offers several improvements over the J-10A. These include an infrared search and track sensor, glass cockpit avionics, and a passive electronically scanned array radar. The J-10B was officially unveiled at 2016’s Airshow China, appearing in the static park with the PL-12 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile. At the 2018 show, a J-10B testbed appeared in the flying display using a WS-10 thrust vector control engine.
The most advanced J-10 variant is the J-10C, which first appeared in a parade in August 2017. While largely identical to the J-10B, it can be distinguished by its slightly different tail, which slopes down from a point – the top of the J-10B’s tail is square. The fighter is equipped with an active electronically scanned array radar and an updated cockpit. It carries a broader array of weapons, including the long-range PL-15 air-to-air missile, which is believed to have a range greater than 107nm (200km).
The J-10 family also has a two-seat trainer variant, the J-10S, a derivative of the original J-10A.
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Roderick Lee, research director at the China Aerospace Studies Institute, believes that in a conflict the J-10’s main mission would be air-to-air combat. He notes that photographs of J-10s tend to feature air-to-air munitions more frequently then weapons for ground attack.
Like Rupprecht, he believes the advent of the WS-10 powered J-10C is a significant development.
“The development of turbofan and turbojet engines is a national-level technological development priority,” he says.
“The appearance of a WS-10 on a J-10C as opposed to an AL-31 is a major public milestone for that development effort. That being said, it does not necessarily indicate that the WS-10 performs ‘just as good as an AL-31’, either in terms of thrust, flight hours, or any other technical performance metric. The PLAAF may have been willing to sacrifice something, such as lower flight hours before needing overhaul, in favour of having a domestic engine, although I doubt there was any substantive sacrifice in flight performance.”
He also notes that a fully indigenous engine should simplify logistics and support.
While the J-10 is a key aircraft for the PLAAF, it has yet to secure overseas sales. Since the 2000s there have been rumours that Pakistan will obtain the J-10, but Islamabad is clearly more focused on advancing its Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 capability. In April, unsourced reports suggested that Iran might be interested in acquiring J-10s to upgrade its ramshackle air force, supposedly offering a barter deal involving oil or natural gas.
Irrespective of whether international sales emerge, the J-10 will be a key fighter in Chinese service through the 2020s, adding force numbers and supporting larger types such as the J-16 and J-20. The arrival of WS-10-powered J-10Cs in operational units marks a critical inflection point in the programme’s development, as well as the growing maturity and confidence of China’s aerospace sector.



Greg WaldronGreg Waldron is the Asia Managing Editor of FlightGlobal, responsible for the team’s airline, aerospace, and defence coverage across the region. He has worked at the company since joining in 2009. In addition to his work as a journalist, Waldron makes regular appearances on television to discuss the industry, and speaks at industry conferences.

 

[Goenitz]

J10C has defeated J16 and Su35 during PLAAF internal exercises and won the golden helmet 2,3 times in the past 5 years.

in BVR or in dogfight?

 

[IblinI]

in BVR or in dogfight?

free air combat with EW and AWACS involved.

 

[siegecrossbow]

in BVR or in dogfight?

Golden Helmet exercise consist of free 2 vs 2 aerial combat exercises with no limits on altitude and aircraft distance. They typically start off in BVR range and work their way to WVR.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

J10C will replace Mirages overtime. However where Mirages within the PAF became SOW platform, the J10C provides the PAF with a more capable multi-role fighter. This will necessitate a change in tactics. Where in the past the PAF tactics was to primarily use the Mirages for quick ingress, release and then a speedy egress (given its 2.2Mach) with no loitering for air engagement, while other supporting units provide air support like F-16 and JF-17. The challenge with India's newer acquisitions was BVR engagement where our supporting units would be at a disadvantage.

I expect that the J10C along with JF17s will make a strike package (given both will have PL15). Backstopping them usually along border or within Pak border will be F16s. This will make Indian counter action very difficult and subject ot losses. They'll attempt to utilize their AA Missiles but that is not as potent as people think. Besides they'll paint themselves very quickly and open themselves to counter action on a number of fronts. J10C is big trouble for India.

With J10C, tactics will change, and PK penetration and offensive power increases considerably.

I foresee an Indian reaction to J10C be in the form of increasing their Rafael numbers. They'll also attempt to go for a Gen-5 air superiority plane. Most likely US - JSF, since I doubt they'll get the F-22.

 

[Gripen9]

J10C will replace Mirages overtime. However where Mirages within the PAF became SOW platform, the J10C provides the PAF with a more capable multi-role fighter. This will necessitate a change in tactics. Where in the past the PAF tactics was to primarily use the Mirages for quick ingress, release and then a speedy egress (given its 2.2Mach) with no loitering for air engagement, while other supporting units provide air support like F-16 and JF-17. The challenge with India's newer acquisitions was BVR engagement where our supporting units would be at a disadvantage.

I expect that the J10C along with JF17s will make a strike package (given both will have PL15). Backstopping them usually along border or within Pak border will be F16s. This will make Indian counter action very difficult and subject ot losses. They'll attempt to utilize their AA Missiles but that is not as potent as people think. Besides they'll paint themselves very quickly and open themselves to counter action on a number of fronts. J10C is big trouble for India.

With J10C, tactics will change, and PK penetration and offensive power increases considerably.

I foresee an Indian reaction to J10C be in the form of increasing their Rafael numbers. They'll also attempt to go for a Gen-5 air superiority plane. Most likely US - JSF, since I doubt they'll get the F-22.

So India will be allowed to acquire F-35 while deploying S-400s?

 

[HAIDER]

matlab pathan bhai ki tarah barha charha k pesh karty hain?

kind of ... sometimes he shoots a substanceless statement....later found to be a hoax ..

arey bhai kia mobile phone network ki baath ker rahey ho jo itni jaldi generations change kerlayga.

lolzz... phone network he lagta ha.. haar targ G he G ha