Paf Is Run By Fighter Mafia Jocks---Kaiser Tufail Is Wrong

[rockstar08]

Hi

That for your interest in the thread---but you completely missed it---I did not asking for a dedicated bomber---but rather like the SU 30 ala Chinese----in the J 11 category and its likes---and even the JH7B.

Your last line answers it all----fruit does not fall far from the tree---. Look at their decision regarding the JF 17---they never manufactured or had any intention of building a 2 seater version for an aircraft that they were planning to sell to half the world----they were clueless as to what the needs of the other air forces we and how those air forces progressed---.

This was equal to a tactical and a strategic blunder on the battle front right in the midst of a war. Just like going into air combat and then realizing in the middle of engagement that you forgot to load air to air missiles on your wings----.

As much as we praise our air warriors of their deeds against the enemy---as much we need to confront them for their blunders and more so--. And this confrontation must be like a 'right in your face kind of'----even though victories are glorifying to the cause---but the blunders in war are a death to a nation----.

You always need to have Napoleon at the back of your mind---he lost his famous battle because his General at the flanks took more time in understanding his order to engage or did not think it with he same urgency that Napoleon had in its execution---and that time lapse was ONE MINUTE.




Hi,

You are on the right track---look at the procurement of the PAF and how it went about it-----it shows---they were clueless to the threats being posed to the nation.

I have always stated---you prepare to fight for war in the peace time---10 to 15 years ahead of time----ie---it takes 2 to 3 years to research what you want and negotiate---2 years at least to get your first item and then training and integration which can take around 5 to 10 years---unless you are Bossman and then you can just jump into the seat and fly away---.

i agree with you , PAF is very relax in their preparation , even when they have multiple threats , they are outnumbered , and out dated in technology ...
what else we can do Mastan khan beside identifying and expressing concern ...

 

[SBD-3]

Hi

That for your interest in the thread---but you completely missed it---I did not asking for a dedicated bomber---but rather like the SU 30 ala Chinese----in the J 11 category and its likes---and even the JH7B.

Your last line answers it all----fruit does not fall far from the tree---. Look at their decision regarding the JF 17---they never manufactured or had any intention of building a 2 seater version for an aircraft that they were planning to sell to half the world----they were clueless as to what the needs of the other air forces we and how those air forces progressed---.

This was equal to a tactical and a strategic blunder on the battle front right in the midst of a war. Just like going into air combat and then realizing in the middle of engagement that you forgot to load air to air missiles on your wings----.

As much as we praise our air warriors of their deeds against the enemy---as much we need to confront them for their blunders and more so--. And this confrontation must be like a 'right in your face kind of'----even though victories are glorifying to the cause---but the blunders in war are a death to a nation----.

You always need to have Napoleon at the back of your mind---he lost his famous battle because his General at the flanks took more time in understanding his order to engage or did not think it with he same urgency that Napoleon had in its execution---and that time lapse was ONE MINUTE

Lemme give my humble openion on those points
1-Do we need an SU-30 class platform? My answer would be 23% yes, 60% no and 17% maybe. Such platforms give you certain advantages like heavier payload and more range but you would have to consider the fact that Pakistani military penitration would at most go til dehli because the longer military penitrates in India, the longer the supply lines and the more would be the risk of inturruption of supply lines. So PAF's key roles in support would be 1) Provide point Close ground support 2)Provide close air protection -strike, air superiority and airspace denial would be the primary roles-
We neither have the geographic depth like India and China to be able to afford the assets which can be placed deep inside and be available when needed. For the geography of Pakistan it doesnt make any difference if we use the heavies or not because one of their key advantage would be of little value. The only case for such platform making sense would be if they are placed in quetta, turbat etc. But then airial tankers would also have to be considred. A tanker placed in middle can extend the range of a short range asset flying from a deep located airbase.
2- Dual seater, yes if dedicated ground attack role is required.And if greater times over the target under intensive air enviornament is expected. A second pilot would be used if the operational threat profile and operational pressures are expected to affect the pilot. PAF seems more interested in point support i.e. the targets are designated by the ground forces and Pilots reach the area, bomb them and get out. Unlike search and destroy or wild weasle kind of stuff or bombing without ground spotting or prolonged air support under heavy enemy air activity would require second seater.
3- Napoleon's down fall came because he chose his generals not for their abilities but their luck and eventually his lucky generals ran out of it that day.

 

[krash]

About the paf aircraft in the air without missiles---search it---it was released by paf----in panic they launched everything---the news will be ere somewhere on the board.

I believe the paranoia was more in-result of the value of the assets being safeguarded, i.e. the nuclear installations. That same can be seen in when the F-16s sent as escorts for the C-130 taking 'sensitive equipment' for the nuclear tests were unarmed and then were commanded to ram the C-130 in case the C-130 pilot went dubious. Nobody was trusted, nothing was taken casually.

Also if the planes were indeed scrambled without loads on the said night then it was most probably in hopes of overwhelming the incoming strike package (textbook deterrence tactic) asap instead of wasting time, which, as it turned out, worked very well. Doubt throwing a 100 more armed birds after the first 20 at a formation of 4 would have done any more good.

The said strike had been expected since a few years then. Contingency plans, however effective or lack thereof, were in place. Zia's statements are on record, Pakistan's ambassador to the UN's statements are on record. Even a retaliatory one-way, 'suicide', strike had already been planned. So I find it unlikely that Pakistan found itself in the situation out of the blue and reacted that 'un-calculated-ly'.

On topic:

I would also blame the Pakistani Army for this mindset. They are the primary players in dictating the requirements and then the budget allocations for the forces. Their know-it-all, do-it-all, we-are-all attitude has not been very conducive in countering the situation. Had it not been for the foresight of one Malik Nur Khan the night of 5th August 1965 would be remembered very differently. However, the recent shift towards command-centralization and synthesis between the different military arms is a very welcomed step.

 

[krash]

Nobody can force India to resolve ANYTHING
There is NOTHING to be resolved
There is No problem no dispute EXCEPT cross border terrorism from Pakistan

Do you not see that the "cross border terrorism" comes with the "there is nothing to be resolved" and vice versa?

Yes? Doesn't that confirm what I said? The minister is talking about giving a fitting reply to any border violence or terrorist acts; he is not talking about taking Pakistani Kashmir. As far as the status quo of the territory is concerned, India is more than satisfied. It is Pak that has spent a lot of its national energy and resources trying to take Indian Kashmir.

Like I said above the status quo of the territory comes with the "status quo" of the "terrorist acts", something which for some reason no Indian can or is willing to see. And this in-turn has resulted in India spending far more resources on Kashmir. For the life of me I cannot understand how the Indians wish to not negotiate and yet achieve an end to Pakistan's claimed involvement in Indian occupied Kashmir. Unless they are rooting for all out hostilities, in which case I need not explain anything.

Then there is that little matter of Kashmiris and the whole world acknowledging Kashmir as disputed. Classic examples of shouting/whining/crying and then demanding that everyone believe that which you are claiming. India has not reached that place in the world yet.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@krash

India will NOT even discuss Kashmir ( First let us meet officially ; which is NOT happening )

The talks will be first and foremost on India's concerns ie cross border terrorism
India will set the terms

Right now we are happy to continue with the LOC skirmishes

They are ALSO a message isnt it

AND who was asking the whole world to intervene in September October
It was Pakistan

 

[Paksanity]

Thread is about PAF's acquisition decisions, isn't it?

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Thread is about PAF's acquisition decisions, isn't it?

this is about fighter mafia meaning fighter pilots who are running paf
who think that multirole fighters is all we need and the lack of dedicated heavy bomber jets doent concerns them

 

[halupridol]

Do you not see that the "cross border terrorism" comes with the "there is nothing to be resolved" and vice versa?



Like I said above the status quo of the territory comes with the "status quo" of the "terrorist acts", something which for some reason no Indian can or is willing to see. And this in-turn has resulted in India spending far more resources on Kashmir. For the life of me I cannot understand how the Indians wish to not negotiate and yet achieve an end to Pakistan's claimed involvement in Indian occupied Kashmir. Unless they are rooting for all out hostilities, in which case I need not explain anything.

Then there is that little matter of Kashmiris and the whole world acknowledging Kashmir as disputed. Classic examples of shouting/whining/crying and then demanding that everyone believe that which you are claiming. India has not reached that place in the world yet.

what has been more difficult for me to understand is ,, why Pakistan keeps walking on a path towards conflict wid us,,,,for what,,5 million ppl of kashmir,,,,,for those 5 million, u guys r willing to be enemy of billion+ ppl...
why???coz they r muslims?

 

[Paksanity]

I think we are being too harsh on PAF here. One has to understand PAF doctrine coupled with constraints and restraints it has to operate within. You have to understand how application of Air Forces went through evolution in last four decades. I would also not dismiss a professional like Kaiser Tufail just like that. I am sure he knows things that we don't. Then get the understanding of how national policy of Pakistan works, dominated highly by Army (not the air force) and where PAF fits in. Then you have to cut through the haze of glittering publicity of aircraft's on offer and translate its real capability. And lets not forget the logistics of maintaining and cost of keeping them functional. When you factor in all these realities Only then true picture starts to emerge and things start to make sense.

Su-30, Jh-7, J-11, A-10, Su-25 etc dont make sense. J-10, F-16, Jf-17 do. F-16 outshines others in deetroying ground targets and it has range and payload to match. That is staying within the Doctrine of PAF which is to defend Pakistan's airspace and protect and support surface forces who are doing their job. Multirole aircraft can swing to ground attack roles when needed. They can also strike deeper targets and survive while doing that. Why would you want to buy White Elephants?

 

[Storm Force]

PAF has been built with limited funds to fight a very lmited war within Pakistan boundaries.

Those describing PAF reaching new delhi are dreaming.

IN A REAL WAR PAF would so frightened of losing KEY ASSETS over indian air space they will keep their planes inside pak air space.

Can you imagine even losing 30 F16 in the first 48 HOURS in war and nearly half your elite fighters ARE GONE.

YOU GUYS guys train to fight in mostly WVR combat over your own airspace under GCI and home radar cover.

Small
agile
light weight
fighters
like F7 F16 & THUNDERS

with your resources it is a sensible policy and only viable option

 

[MastanKhan]

what has been more difficult for me to understand is ,, why Pakistan keeps walking on a path towards conflict wid us,,,,for what,,5 million ppl of kashmir,,,,,for those 5 million, u guys r willing to be enemy of billion+ ppl...
why???coz they r muslims?

Hi,

Thank you---you got that right.

 

[halupridol]

Hi,

Thank you---you got that right.

so if somehow all of them convert to othr religion(say christianity/buddhism,,neutral**),,,,we cud be frnds

 

[MastanKhan]

so if somehow all of them convert to othr religion(say christianity/buddhism,,neutral**),,,,we cud be frnds

No

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@MastanKhan Sir do you know why we dont give you Kashmir

Because even if we gave it to you on a PLATTER
you will still find other reasons to fight with us

 

[melb4aust]

@MastanKhan Sir do you know why we dont give you Kashmir

Because even if we gave it to you on a PLATTER
you will still find other reasons to fight with us

Wrong ...... we Pakistanis will still fight without a reason. Now cheer up .