Paf Is Run By Fighter Mafia Jocks---Kaiser Tufail Is Wrong

[Stephen Cohen]

@Oscar

Your detailed explanation is welcome and praiseworthy but it just does not cut any ice

In the view of many Indians ;
Pakistan is missing the OLD INDIA of Manmohan Singh

That India was also strong BUT Not assertive

Manmohan's blundering; floundering and faltering Foreign policy
especially Pakistan policy might have pleased Pakistan
but it did NOT serve Indian interests

 

[SQ8]

I understand what you are saying about the dangers of social media (an avid newsroom viewer here) but I also think that what we see today, not just in India but across the world, of social media being accused of causing xyz could also be a case of over reporting. Things can be reported today that would never be reported even 15 years ago. So it's actually quite hard to gauge what effect social media has had on society when social media itself is only a modern creation.

Well, the impact can be gauged in the ten years facebook has been around..and the results have been a roller coaster.Over all however, The final result is a mixed bag of increased awareness but also increased intolerance

@Oscar

Your detailed explanation is welcome and praiseworthy but it just does not cut any ice

In the view of many Indians ;
Pakistan is missing the OLD INDIA of Manmohan Singh

That India was also strong BUT Not assertive

Manmohan's blundering; floundering and faltering Foreign policy
especially Pakistan policy might have pleased Pakistan
but it did NOT serve Indian interests

You read that reply very Indo-Pak centric.. take into account India's own social issues..and then extrapolate to the opinion you gave.. the pattern is clear. You are talking about the input to a process whereas I am referring to the process itself.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Oscar

I will restrict my answer to the change in foreign policy or rather Pakistan policy
since your views of India are based on India's Pakistan policy

India is a democratic country ; Nobody can thrust his opinion on others

The FACT is that slowly over a period of time say from 2009 onwards
from the Sharm al Shaikh Fiasco Man Mohan Singh was personally obsessed with
Improving relations with Pakistan

But he forgot that India was NOT willing to forget and forgive Mumbai

As long as Manmohan singh HAD his political and economic CREDIBILITY
he could stick his neck out

But post 2011 Man Mohan Singh AND his policies ( Including Pakistan policy )
became much hated objects

And above all the farce of a " trial " in Pakistan and the periodic skirmishes on LOC
all derailed Man mohan's plans

Are you AWARE of the severe restrictions that he had put on Indian Army on the LOC

It was done by MMS to give peace a chance and then post January 2013 it all
BLEW in his face

Now Man Mohan's policies were opposed by the Foreign Ministry ; Military
and the media OR ELSE he would have simply demilitarised Siachen

And at the end of his tenure MMS had simply NOTHING to show for what
his pacifistic agenda had achieved

In fact Post January and August 2013 -- LOC Skirmishes
MMS completely lost all his arguements relating to Pakistan

Now the things have changed 180 degrees

Nobody has brainwashed Indians

People are sick and tired of the wimpishness of Manmohan SIngh approach
want a more aggresive approach

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar

I will restrict my answer to the change in foreign policy or rather Pakistan policy
since your views of India are based on India's Pakistan policy

The bold part is absolutely incorrect. My views are based on the inclusion of that factor, along with inputs from the condition faced by family members in India, from friends in India.. from India's interaction with all its neighbours and the views shown on social media by the "new breed" Indian regarding communal ideals.

As I said again, you are still focused on the input..and not the process.
Manmohans policy is the input, the frustration with him is the output.
The process that gets the Indian there is what I am talking about.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The bold part is absolutely incorrect. My views are based on the inclusion of that factor, along with inputs from the condition faced by family members in India, from friends in India.. from India's interaction with all its neighbours and the views shown on social media by the "new breed" Indian regarding communal ideals.

As I said again, you are still focused on the input..and not the process.
Manmohans policy is the input, the frustration with him is the output.
The process that gets the Indian there is what I am talking about
.

1 ) You can easily IGNORE communal ideals on social media
That is just people messing up with Secularists and having fun

2 ) I dont know what your Friends and relatives are telling you
since that also depends on the local politics especially the vote bank politics
that is nasty in India

I have also previously mentioned that secular parties are the bigger troublemakers
who will go to any extent to Make Muslims their captive votebanks

3 ) India's relations with all its neighbours excluding Pakistan are FINE

4 ) You have very rightly put it that
"
Manmohans policy is the input, the frustration with him is the output.
The process that gets the Indian there is what I am talking about

Now what exactly is the process and what is the process comprised of

The so called process which has made Indians in YOUR view
" venomous and intolerant " is Pakistan's policy and behaviour towards India

In our view " We are Done " with the peace process

All that we could do we have tried and failed INCLUDING
showing faith in Pakistan's handling of JUD / LET post 26/11

Pakistan's justification of terrorism ie Kashmir is ALSO not acceptable

IN fact the cancellation of foreign secretary level talks was welcomed by
the Indian Media and the people

 

[SQ8]

1 ) You can easily IGNORE communal ideals on social media
That is just people messing up with Secularists and having fun

2 ) I dont know what your Friends and relatives are telling you
since that also depends on the local politics especially the vote bank politics
that is nasty in India

I have also previously mentioned that secular parties are the bigger troublemakers
who will go to any extent to Make Muslims their captive votebanks

3 ) India's relations with all its neighbours excluding Pakistan are FINE

4 ) You have very rightly put it that
"
Manmohans policy is the input, the frustration with him is the output.
The process that gets the Indian there is what I am talking about

Now what exactly is the process and what is the process comprised of

The so called process which has made Indians in YOUR view
" venomous and intolerant " is Pakistan's policy and behaviour towards India

In our view " We are Done " with the peace process

All that we could do we have tried and failed INCLUDING
showing faith in Pakistan's handling of JUD / LET post 26/11

Pakistan's justification of terrorism ie Kashmir is ALSO not acceptable

IN fact the cancellation of foreign secretary level talks was welcomed by
the Indian Media and the people

1) Clearly that is a very presumptuous ideal that it is just messing.
2) UP, Kashmir, Kerala,Gujrat and TN are my local gauges through friends and family.
3)Not so up north, and not so on the ground in BD either
4) Yes, but at the same time.. the chances to promote the change in these policies from both sides were very high pre NaMo. You may have to wait for Kasuri's book to get how close.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

If India and Indians have changed it has NOT happened overnight
it has been a metamorphosis AND
it is for the following reasons

1 We have realised that being nice ;forgiving and accomdating DOES not pay
especially with Pakistan

As they say " What do we have to show for It"

2 ) We have discovered our own strengths and Pakistan's weaknesses
COURTESY social media and internet

3 ) The Global events ie MAY 2 / 2011 also have played a part
Here the narrative is that If Pakistan could do this to USA then India should not
expect any better

4 A Large number of foreign writers and analysts have written a lot
about Pakistan in recent years which is similar to what we have been trying to tell them

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan

Having read all your threats and warnings in the previous pages I want to say that
There will be NO talks with Pakistan

Secondly your Nuclear blackmail will NOT work

Sir,

Wilbur Smith is a fascinating writer---he writes about Africa---works the fiction with some historical back ground---did I ever tell you about the story he wrote about a flea that lived in the elephants ear---no---here it is.

Once upon a time---there was this massive crusty old bull elephant with tusks longer than the limbs of the trees---where he walked the earth shook---where he fed---trees were left bare of bark or leaves---no other bull elephant would get close to him for the fear of mauling---but there was a flea---this flea lived in his ear and would often talk to the elephant.

So one day---the elephant---as it is trundling along comes across a deep ravine---he wants to cross it and the only way across is a rickety old bridge---the elephant is hesitant---but then he takes heart and starts crossing it---the old bridge shakes and shivers---it creaks and cracks----timbers on verge of cracking---ropes on the verge of tearing apart--dust fying---but the elephants walks across---as it rosses the bridge---the flea says to him " didn't WE shake that bridge ".


You have been here less than a month and the only posts I see from you are 'clever' answers full of rhetoric or one liners---you have been riding piggy back on other posters---why don't you write your own piece and let us see what you are made up of---.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Sir,



You have been here less than a month and the only posts I see from you are 'clever' answers full of rhetoric or one liners---you have been riding piggy back on other posters---why don't you write your own piece and let us see what you are made up of---.

I have been here for one month But I have been following India -Pakistan affairs
and the global geopolitics since the age of 15 ; I am 41 now

There is NOTHING that I dont know about India - Pakistan problems

And I am not a writer ; so why should I write my own piece

 

[MastanKhan]

I have been here for one month But I have been following India -Pakistan affairs
and the global geopolitics since the age of 15 ; I am 41 now

There is NOTHING that I dont know about India - Pakistan problems

And I am not a writer ; so why should I write my own piece

Then take a hike.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@MastanKhan Sir

I would like YOUR views on the following

You have always castigated Pakistani authorities for selling Pakistan short
in the WOT ie they DID not get for Pakistan the right price

My question is Have you ever considered the ROLE of A Q Khan Scandal
which broke in 2002 ; Just after 9 / 11

It immediately put Pakistan in the dock

Iran ; Libya and North Korea all beneficiaries of A Q Khan network

Now my view is that A Q Khan scandal immediately put Pakistan on the DEFENSIVE
in the Global community and damaged Pakistan's bargaining power
vis a vis USA

The US ALLOWED F 16 s Block 52 to Pakistan only in 2005 ; Four years after 9 /11

And that too only 18 of them ; so Pakistan paid a big price for AQ Khan's indiscretions

 

[Viper0011.]

@orangzaib

This is the ANALYSIS of your own Expert Air Marshal Shehzad Chaudhry

Managing Modi - Shahzad Chaudhry

How might then Pakistan manage him? The first apprehension is will he war with Pakistan. Here is how it will go. He will begin with an immediate assessment of what his armed forces will need to gain an assured level of readiness – armed forces are always short of what they assume is absolute readiness; remember the nine months that Manekshaw needed before the 1971 war, or how the Indian army dithered after Mumbai from a reprisal action..

1) He is not my air marshal. He's Pakistan's. My generals are in the CENTCOM and they oversee all aspects of warfare within that entire region. I don't think you want me to talk about "my generals".

2) There is nothing new that I didn't say in my post. Go re-read it. I said it very clearly that either India or Pakistan, if they become a victim of terrorism from the other side, have a right to safeguard their interests and they can respond to the other party through militarily. And that requires preparations. The article said just that...

 

[Thorough Pro]

I like your style!

Then take a hike.

 

[SBD-3]

Pakistan air force has been dominated by the fighter pilot mafia for the longest. It shows in their attitude---it shows in the decisions that they make---it shows in their management style---it shows how they comprehend the current and future threats---it shows in what their current and future plans are for aircrafts to be inducted and procured in the near and future.

Traditionally the fighter pilots gets the glory while the bomber pilots are ploughing thru the enemy forces on the ground---a job most consider worthless but is as glorifying and rewarding. If you could compare a fighter pilot to a race car driver speeding his car on the race track---then the bomber pilot would be like the heavy equipment driver that laid down that road.

This fighter pilot mindset has been dominant for decades over PAF and in its current form and inventory---since the last A5 Fantan retired---this air force does not have a dedicated bomber aircraft in its inventory and neither does it plan to get one.

If the PAF was facing a smaller enemy---it would be an acceptable error---but when the enemy has intentions of deploying 35 + division across the border from it case of a war---the current or the upcoming inventory has no heavy bombers to do strike missions on enemy forces---it does not even have medium range bombers either, to make massive strikes on the ground forces and armored columns of enemy vehicles. All it has is small aircraft like the F16's, the JF 17's and the Mirage aircraft which do not carry a heavy load---. They need an aircraft---a fighter bomber that can carry a load of 15-20000 lbs at least and is also capable of firing Bvr missiles as well---on naval strike missions---this aircraft could take on a load of at least 6 to 8 air to ship missiles as well as a couple of Bvrs---on ground strike mission with a load 8 one thousand lbs bombs at a minimum or a configuration of smart bomb load.

If cost is a concern----Paf should look at the upcoming JH 7B---the other option is off-course the J11 series.

The most important part of the buying the aircraft----Paf should only be used as a consulting firm---the civilian defence minister needs to take into consideration what the air force says it needs are and what other independent sources are saying what the air force needs.

The minister should make a decision independent of air force fighter pilot mafia---he must and he should look at the broader picture in balancing out the air superiority to the use of a sledge hammer.

Musharraf did a great job of diversifying the air surveillance aircraft much to the dislike of the air force---and over the time---his decision proved to be right---even though the air force fought tooth and nail against it.

1- bomber and fighter pilots have rather been compliments. If it were not for escorts (like Tuskegee airmen) the allied bomber force would be blown to hell.

Bombers did take out the bulk of military infrastructure but the heavier loads were used because the munition was dumb and because the fighters werent desinged for more pronounced ground roles (fighters could carry ~250 lbs, heavy bombers ~500 lbs) but dumb bombs often made lucky hits.

Not until germans put customised versions of 75mm and 50mm cannons on HS129 and Me410 a more pronouned role of fighters in ground support was carved out. But the germans "overshot" their ambitions.

However, firstly in Korea and then in Vietnam even the jet fighter-bombers like thunderchiefs were manhandled by migs and sams before crusaiders and phantoms kicked in for escort.

2-With improvements in SAMs and A2A munition, no force risks a dedicated bomber platform. Even US, famous for operating dedicated equipment for each role is now slimming up for JSF like MR platforms. The only operational bomber platform is B2 Sprite now.

Smart munition has reduced the need for carrying large load.

Now with new smart cluster munition a fighter carring 2-3 units can inflict damage on a wide area. Likewise with SO PGM you dont need to carpet bomb the area.

If you're talking about destroying the swarms of ground forces then this would only be possible by a dedicated platform only militarily and economically viable in significant numbers. Indians used the same Mirages in Kargil with great proficiency and in dedicated role. Its true that PAF has been hostage to the mentality of a particular group (since all the PAF chiefs i know are fighter pilots) but that doesn't necessarily means all iut neglect to crucial aspects.

 

[MastanKhan]

1- bomber and fighter pilots have rather been compliments. If it were not for escorts (like Tuskegee airmen) the allied bomber force would be blown to hell. Bombers did take out the bulk of military infrastructure but the heavier loads were used because the munition was dumb and because the fighters werent desinged for more pronounced ground roles (fighters could carry ~250 lbs, heavy bombers ~500 lbs) but dumb bombs often made lucky hits. Not until germans put customised versions of 75mm and 50mm cannons on HS129 and Me410 a more pronouned role of fighters in ground support was carved out. But the germans "overshot" their ambitions. However, firstly in Korea and then in Vietnam even the jet fighter-bombers like thunderchiefs were manhandled by migs and sams before crusaiders and phantoms kicked in for escort.
2-With improvements in SAMs and A2A munition, no force risks a dedicated bomber platform. Even US, famous for operating dedicated equipment for each role is now slimming up for JSF like MR platforms. The only operational bomber platform is B2 Sprite now. Smart munition has reduced the need for carrying large load. Now with new smart cluster munition a fighter carried 2-3 units can inflict a wide area. Likewise with SO PGM you dont need to carpet bomb the area. If you're talking about destroying the swarms of ground forces then this would only be possible by a dedicated platform only militarily and economically viable in significant numbers. Indians used the same Mirages in Kargil with great proficiency and in dedicated role. Its true that PAF has been hostage to the mentality of a particular group (since all the PAF chiefs i know are fighter pilots) but that doesn't necessarily means all iut neglect to crucial aspects.

Hi

That for your interest in the thread---but you completely missed it---I did not asking for a dedicated bomber---but rather like the SU 30 ala Chinese----in the J 11 category and its likes---and even the JH7B.

Your last line answers it all----fruit does not fall far from the tree---. Look at their decision regarding the JF 17---they never manufactured or had any intention of building a 2 seater version for an aircraft that they were planning to sell to half the world----they were clueless as to what the needs of the other air forces we and how those air forces progressed---.

This was equal to a tactical and a strategic blunder on the battle front right in the midst of a war. Just like going into air combat and then realizing in the middle of engagement that you forgot to load air to air missiles on your wings----.

As much as we praise our air warriors of their deeds against the enemy---as much we need to confront them for their blunders and more so--. And this confrontation must be like a 'right in your face kind of'----even though victories are glorifying to the cause---but the blunders in war are a death to a nation----.

You always need to have Napoleon at the back of your mind---he lost his famous battle because his General at the flanks took more time in understanding his order to engage or did not think it with he same urgency that Napoleon had in its execution---and that time lapse was ONE MINUTE.

the point is , will PAF listen ?? we are discussing and busting our Balls here , do the strategic planners of PAF give Sh!t about it ?? they do have this in their mind or not ?
or they are just so relaxed that Pakistan got nukes, so it will never come to war ...

Hi,

You are on the right track---look at the procurement of the PAF and how it went about it-----it shows---they were clueless to the threats being posed to the nation.

I have always stated---you prepare to fight for war in the peace time---10 to 15 years ahead of time----ie---it takes 2 to 3 years to research what you want and negotiate---2 years at least to get your first item and then training and integration which can take around 5 to 10 years---unless you are Bossman and then you can just jump into the seat and fly away---.