Paf Is Run By Fighter Mafia Jocks---Kaiser Tufail Is Wrong

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan

Can you name some bomber options PAF has right now?

Are you arguing for full-fledged bombers like B-52s or bomber-fighters like Su-35 being used as a bomb-truck with two BVRs etc...

Can you please clarify a little bit?

Also, what is your source for the lines "Fear of Israeli deep strike was so much that half of PAF planes took off without weapons"

Can you go in a more detail about this as well?

Thanks.

Hi,

PAF has noting at all----only the F 16's and JF 17's. The Fantan has been retd. I am talking about fighter bombers---like the JH7B, SU 35, the J 11 series of aircraft.

About the paf aircraft in the air without missiles---search it---it was released by paf----in panic they launched everything---the news will be ere somewhere on the board.

 

[dexter]

Hi,

PAF has noting at all----only the F 16's and JF 17's. The Fantan has been retd. I am talking about fighter bombers---like the JH7B, SU 35, the J 11 series of aircraft.

About the paf aircraft in the air without missiles---search it---it was released by paf----in panic they launched everything---the news will be ere somewhere on the board.

Plus we are losing 5-6 mirages every year as they have commpleted their life.
I dont know what the Airforce is thinking !
The era of air warfare is changing day by day and we are still thinking and waiting for enemy to act first.

 

[Viper0011.]

What are the other options?

1) Buy used/new F-16s
2) Increase the JF-17 block 2 production from 12-16 to 25-30 per year.
3) buy FC-20 for stop gap until J-31 is ready
4) Buy used Mirage 2000
5) Spanish Mirage F1
6) 25 Kfir Block 60 from Israel

Short - Medium term, buy used -16's with MLU or Block 40 from US inventory with AMRAAMs Smart Stand Off munitions if Pakistan needs more inventory.

Medium - Long Term: Increase production of JFT Block II and try to come up with a stealthier JFT Block III. Buy J-11 or 16 or SU-37 (ideal)

Long Term: JFT Block II in numbers with -16 in numbers with new additions such as SU-37 or J-11/16 (specially for Naval role) plus two - three squadrons of J-31.

If Pakistan survives this political drama and ever becomes a big economy, then you should invest more in heavies and J-31 jets. That should be the way to go in the future in joint venture with China.

 

[jupiter2007]

It is out of the question because Pakistan does not conduct business with Israel.

Pakistan bought 13 used F-16 from Belgium via Jordan. If Pakistan want, Pakistan can acquire those via Jordan.

Hi,

JH 7 B should be in production next year------the JH7 was offered at that time---. Th 7 B has new engines---new canopy---new weapons systems---new electronics----can launch all naval weapons as well as ground strike and also BVR capable with a weapons load capacity of 6 tons plus----.

People----please don't row a tunnel vision----there are a few choices of fighter bombers available---.

J 31 is an air superiority fighter aircraft---.

As for used mirages---M2K9's if available---would be a heck of an addition but timing is an issue---. If

JH-7B still has an older design, I wouldn't invest in it.
plus Pakistan-USA relationship is improving, they will be willing to sell F-16 to Pakistan. USA has surplus F-16 and F-15 that they might be ready to sell to friendly countries. USA want to see stable Pakistan and stable Afghanistan. USA need Pakistan's help to bring peace in the area....just listen to Obama's recent statement about Pakistan.

 

[Viper0011.]

plus Pakistan-USA relationship is improving, they will be willing to sell F-16 to Pakistan. USA has surplus F-16 and F-15 that they might be ready to sell to firendly countries. USA want to see stable Pakistan and stable Afghanistan. USA need Pakistan's help to bring peace in the area....just listen to Obama's recent statement about Pakistan.

Used -16's and -15's would be ideal. If no -15s, then get J-11 or J-16 or SU-37. J-31 is a must have when it comes out for sale

 

[Thorough Pro]

Cruise missiles are expensive and used on HVT's, for enemy strike columns, carpet bombers are much more effective and dumb bombs are hell lot cheaper than cruise missiles.

Thats what Cruise Missiles are for. If we really need bombers, a squadron of Su-34 Fullback is the answer.

That is so stupid. Defence forces are an extension of the government policies, not the other way round. Just like the decision to go nuclear was by the government, not defence forces. Forces get what the government decides based on its policies and stance i.e., Offensive or Defensive. The advantage of offensively geared forces is that if required they can become defensive, but forces structured and equipped to be defensive can never become offensive.

A counter narrative i would like to add:
1-PAF has lots of options, but again, it comes down to funds. While the Chinese might offer loans, it is a bit difficult to get the same from the west
2-F-16 is not light weight, it is medium weight. 14,000lbs of payload is no joke.
3-PAF cannot let the defense minister make the decisions, what does the defense minister know about what our boys want to sharpen their claws?

I agree with the point that PAF needs at least 2 dedicated heavy strike squadrons......basically, the likes of J-11/Su30 are also multirole, but they can be beneficial at both sea and air-ground

Where PAF was given the funds, it did make some good strategic decisions for future planning....the induction of fleet tankers and EW aircraft is one such positive step.

If 6-7 billion USD were immediately made available to PAF, they can procure the heavies, decent SAMs and more EW aircraft while speed up the JF-17/F-16 induction.

You are wrong on so many accounts.

We don't have strategic depth, and that is precisely why we need heavy strikers because we can not afford to let 33 enemy divisions advance for more than an hour, we must stop them in their tracks.

Because we don't have strategic depth, that is why we need to take the war to the enemy's home, fight it out their and not in our country.

Smaller and light aircraft can NEVER be at par with bigger and heavier aircrafts, they lack range, endurance, load, onboard offensive and defensive equipment. This like using a 38 bore revolver to take out a sniper slugging 50 BMG round at you.

The whole purpose of attaining air superiority is to protect your ground forces from enemy strikers and destroy the enemy ground forces. even if by a long shot, PAF is able to deny air superiority to IAF but is unable provide support to PA by striking and stopping IA's massive ground assault, then in reality it has failed.

Combined objective of all the arms of defence forces is to defend the country on all fronts, ground, Sea, and air. Winning one battle alone is meaning less and does not help in winning the war.

Strike aircraft work when you have depth and total air dominance. Dynamics of air warfare is different for PAF, air space denial is the number one priority rather than strike. In a Pakistan Vs India scenario the biggest air losses on both sides would be strike aircraft as the air defences on both sides have advanced by leaps and bounds.

PAF strategy is to field a multi role fleet, because of the funds and aircraft availability issue. Since proximity of forward bases is very near to the potential conflict areas so it has the cushion to field smaller multi role jets. Smaller jets can be at par with bigger twin engined aircraft, they only lack the weapon truck and extended ranges but offer lower operating costs yet other attributes associated with being smaller. Once the fleet is updated. Next priority should be induction of 1-2 squadrons of air-superiority fighters instead of bombers.

PAF potential threat planning is more or less similar to what the Israeli airforce has in place. Both face larger opponents with low strategic depth.

So considering options and resources I think PAF management is doing everything perfectly. A conflict with India is not eminent anytime soon and Pakistan's resources should rather be used to strengthen the economy. Until the J-31 becomes operational it should only concentrate on replacing older aircraft with JF-17s and any refurbished F-16s with decent remaining life it can find.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

if they cant hold their own then they lose their right to exist as an airforce.
those names sake fighters would be doing their job by protecting the bombers.
the fighter jets dont exist for a support role not as a primary existence to stay in the comfort zone of Pakistani airspace.

PAF personnel are not superhumans - training will only get you so far. To hold their own against the IAF or any other air force would require both training and the right equipment. When it comes to the latter, Pakistan's limited resources can only go so far, so a choice has to be made about dividing those resources between assets that allow for air superiority vs ground attack, or focusing on just one type.

The choice so far has been the correct one, given that the main threat (until recently) was perceived to be a conventional military - invest in assets that are primarily air superiority to at least maintain parity with said conventional military and therefore protect ground assets by virtue of denying the enemy airforce the ability to easily and freely bomb Pakistani ground forces. Most of the aircraft selected can also be deployed in ground attack roles, albeit without the kind of firepower that a dedicated bomber would be able to bring to bear.

In hindsight, yes, the lack of dedicated ground attack air assets has proved to be a massive detriment to our ground forces deployed in Counter Terrorism operations, but then no one really expected Pakistan to be involved in such a brutal and large counter terrorism/COIN campaign a decade or more ago when most of Pakistan's current aircraft inventory was being negotiated/purchased. In fact, Pakistan has had to beg and borrow what little it can to even acquire its current inventory of JF-17's and F-16's, with the former suffering significant delays.

Therefore, I fail to see where the PAF and/or Pakistani Strategic planners were intentionally negligent in not acquiring dedicated or primarily ground attack air assets, given that the threat matrix, at the time acquisitions for the PAF were being analyzed and negotiated, revolved primarily around fighting a conventional military conflict.

 

[Zarvan]

Thats what Cruise Missiles are for. If we really need bombers, a squadron of Su-34 Fullback is the answer.

And you think you would get it for GOD sake Sir we are not going to get even if he had massive amount of money we need to first focus on F-16 and JF-17 and may be re think J-10 B as for bomber may be develop a copy of SU-34 and if some how get the money than 40 to 60 in our Air Force but not more than that.

Cruise missiles are expensive and used on HVT's, for enemy strike columns, carpet bombers are much more effective and dumb bombs are hell lot cheaper than cruise missiles.



That is so stupid. Defence forces are an extension of the government policies, not the other way round. Just like the decision to go nuclear was by the government, not defence forces. Forces get what the government decides based on its policies and stance i.e., Offensive or Defensive. The advantage of offensively geared forces is that if required they can become defensive, but forces structured and equipped to be defensive can never become offensive.




You are wrong on so many accounts.

We don't have strategic depth, and that is precisely why we need heavy strikers because we can not afford to let 33 enemy divisions advance for more than an hour, we must stop them in their tracks.

Because we don't have strategic depth, that is why we need to take the war to the enemy's home, fight it out their and not in our country.

Smaller and light aircraft can NEVER be at par with bigger and heavier aircrafts, they lack range, endurance, load, onboard offensive and defensive equipment. This like using a 38 bore revolver to take out a sniper slugging 50 BMG round at you.

The whole purpose of attaining air superiority is to protect your ground forces from enemy strikers and destroy the enemy ground forces. even if by a long shot, PAF is able to deny air superiority to IAF but is unable provide support to PA by striking and stopping IA's massive ground assault, then in reality it has failed.

Combined objective of all the arms of defence forces is to defend the country on all fronts, ground, Sea, and air. Winning one battle alone is meaning less and does not help in winning the war.

In Pakistan its not the governments its only the forces who decide about the enemy and How to deal with it what should be our foreign policy and what kind of treatment we should give to our enemy

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakistan bought 13 used F-16 from Belgium via Jordan. If Pakistan want, Pakistan can acquire those via Jordan.



JH-7B still has an older design, I would invest in it.
plus Pakistan-USA relationship is improving, they will be willing to sell F-16 to Pakistan. USA has surplus F-16 and F-15 that they might be ready to sell to firendly countries. USA want to see stable Pakistan and stable Afghanistan. USA need Pakistan's help to bring peace in the area....just listen to Obama's recent statement about Pakistan.

Hi,

Regardless of what they are---my man---paf needs some heavys----. You are right---isis has caught the U S between a rock and a hard place one more time----how many times has Allah tried to teach the americans to keep their heads straight and hearts clean with the Pakistanis----but out of habbit----they keep failing---till Allah strikes them with a lightening bolt to wake them up.

@Irfan Baloch Sir

Add to it the overall Force concentration and force ratios
which are very much in India's favour

Sir,

The forces are not in india's favor---wars are not won on paper

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Hi,

Regardless of what they are---my man---paf needs some heavys----. You are right---isis has caught the U S between a rock and a hard place one more time----how many times has Allah tried to teach the americans to keep their heads straight and hearts clean with the Pakistanis----but out of habbit----they keep failing---till Allah strikes them with a lightening bolt to wake them up.



Sir,

The forces are not in india's favor---wars are not won on paper

I have made my point ; the question is which Numbers do you know and believe in
The " real ones " or the officially declared ones

What is NOT declared ; it does not mean that it does not exists

 

[fatman17]

I guess Pakistan Air Force has just limited its role to denying air superiority to the Indians

its a major and important part of the PAF doctrine.

 

[he-man]

Mig-35 @ $30 million a piece , is both affordable & can be an excellent platform, for the role of a heavy bomber, if Russia is willing to sell it, PAF should seriously look @ it

Its doubtful they will sell it.

 

[Sine Nomine]

In any future war with India PAF will be only in air for first hour because of this fighter mafia,no doubt Pakistani economy is in bad shape but still government can provide if Army asks again and again,here is case which i copied from Wikipedia
"After the Pressler amendment was passed, the U.S. placed sanctions and an arms embargo on Pakistan on 6 October 1990 due to the country's continued nuclear weapons programme. All eleven Peace Gate III F-16s, along with 7 F-16A and 10 F-16B of the 60 Peace Gate IV F-16s, which had been built by the end of 1994 were embargoed and put into storage in the United States.

Desperate for a new high-tech combat aircraft, between late 1990 and 1993 the PAF evaluated the European Panavia Tornado MRCA (multi-role combat aircraft) and rejected it. The Mirage 2000E and an offer from Poland for the supply of MiG-29 and Su-27 were also considered but nothing materialised. In 1992 the PAF again looked at the Mirage 2000, reviving a proposal from the early 1980s to procure around 20-40 aircraft, but again a sale did not occur because France did not want to sell a fully capable version due to political reasons. In August 1994 the PAF was offered the Saab JAS-39 Gripen by Sweden, but again the sale did not occur because 20% of the Gripen's components were from the U.S. and Pakistan was still under U.S. sanctions.

In mid-1992 Pakistan was close to signing a contract for the supply of 40 Dassault Mirage 2000, equipped with Thomson-CSF RDM/7 radars, from France.

In mid-1994 it was reported that the Russian manufacturers Sukhoi and Mikoyan were offering the Su-27 and MiG-29. But Pakistan was later reported to be negotiating for supply of the Dassault Mirage 2000-5. French and Russian teams visited Pakistan on 27 November 1994 and it was speculated that interest in the Russian aircraft was to pressure France into reducing the price of the Mirage 2000. Stated requirement was for up to 40 aircraft."
As you see in above case at that time Pakistani economy was good enough and Russians were in dire need of money in 1994 only PAF has got some personal who get kickbacks from west.Actually PAF was not even willing for JFT project government forced them to do so..No boyz today Russia is in dire need on money if Pakistan can arrange funds thy will sell you if not huge funds it will be okay to have a su-35 engine in JFT frame,it will be a huge blow with that if PAF designs JFT into F-16xl type strike fighter,

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Thats what Cruise Missiles are for. If we really need bombers, a squadron of Su-34 Fullback is the answer.

I would say we have the Mirage-Vs but they're due for retirement.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Hi,

Not going for the A 10 was a blunder---and was it the hawkeye that they missed as well---. You are correct about the ww2 and japan----.

You remember the Vietnam war---when the vietnamese walked out of the paris peace talks---the americans tried every which way to get them back---but the Vietnamese were smelling victory and told the americanns to get lost----and then the americans lashed out with the linebacker 2----within 24 hours the Vietnamese were on their knees begging the americans to come back---they did---after 1 week of bombings by the B52's---Vietnams capital was smashed---its naval ports destroyed----in 7 days of destruction---Vietnam lost so much that they could neer gain in 30 years after that.

Being a heavy bomber is like possessing the sledge hammer of the gods---raining death and destruction in massive dose without mercy.

Not in case if multilayer SAM and air defense fighters are deployed aggressively.