PAF Exercise Saffron Bandit 2012-13

[Safriz]

@Oscar
If you are awake and snowed in..
Clarify link 16 and some other questions raised by Alphacharlie.

@gambit
Y u no join in?

 

[Alphacharlie]

Aerostas are used for SIGINT/AIR SURVEILLANCE

This Means your F16 Block 52 SQN will be a Challenge to my Forward Operating Sqns - MIG 21 Bison.

Through Link 16 They will be able to LAUNCH projectiles on My Birds being Hidden, assuming Sats/Phalcon ELTA 2085/90 Radars are switched off.

Most Important Point Even if PAF has 6 Aerostats you will be keeping a check of Battle field. One system covers 450-500km. Makes sense they are used to Sanitize most Sensitive Ground.

 

[Safriz]

Stop wasting your time man...he dosent know the difference between an IR guided AIM 9X or the AIM 120 which is radar guided. He dosent know the difference in ranges when it is launched at different levels. He dosent know that the radar guided missiles cannot be guided by AWACS...nor does he know anything about the missile kinematics.

So leave it and stop banging you head on a wall.

Ok mr.Knowall..
You tell us...

 

[Jango]

Aerostas are used for SIGINT/AIR SURVEILLANCE

This Means your Single F16 Block 52 SQN will be a Challenge to my Forward Operating Sqns - MIG 21 Bison.

Through Link 16 They will be able to LAUNCH projectiles on My Birds being Hidden, assuming Sats/Phalcon ELTA 2085/90 Radars are switched off.

Most Important Point Even if PAF has 6 Aerostats you will be keeping a check of Battle field. Makes sense they are used to Sanitize most Sensitive Ground.

I don't have alot of info or anything regarding comms and other things, but the Aerostats observed or pictured on the net are near nuclear installations, this picture is also from a nuclear installation I believe.

Anybody got a pic of an aerostat in the field?

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Ok mr.Knowall..
You tell us...

Well first of all you dont need a radar to launch an IR guided missile to intercept an aircraft. and the range drastically reduces when fired at different altitudes. That is one of the major problems in estimating the range of the missiles.

For example let us take the AIM-7 Sparrow misslie which has a range of about 50 KMs but when fired from a ground based platform has only a range of 20 km and that to for a target that is head on. In case of the missile in tail chase mode the range decreases drastically. The missile kinematics varies in different altitudes as the control surfaces of the missiles are not as large as the aircrafts hence the instantaneous turn rates of the aircraft is always higher hen compared to the instantaneous turn rates of the radars and when the target moves away from the seeker scan range then the corrections are fed from the aircraft radar not from the AWACS radar in the case of active guided radar missile. In case of a passive radar the aircraft lock must be maintained.

And furthermore...No other AWACS other than the E3 or the Wedgetail have the capability to guide UAV and UCAV all they can do is give the co-ordinates to the ground control to send the UAV.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=AD0904852

this is one of the earliest documents that showed that AIMs range differs in different altitudes because of various factors.

Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering - Robert L. Shaw - Google Books

this book shows you how the maximum range differs from the effective kill range and also how the speed and range varies along with the speed of the platform.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA272984

 

[Donatello]

Stupid and ignorant Indians at it again.

*Sigh*

 

[Windjammer]

Are you embarrassed to share the moronic PKKH link ... ???

though I understand why you would be (considering the source)...

An acute loser, only way to describe your attitude, you go on a nonsensical troll spree than complain about MODS distributing favouritism.....did you by any chance miss the word DAWN in the article, the original source of the information.
There are other sources available, but what are the chances that you wouldn't throw another hissy fit.

 

[SQ8]

If Indians have no technical discussion to take place REGARDING the EXERCISE, THEY ARE ADVISED NOT TO POST OR RISK BEING INFRACTED. PLEASE KEEP YOUR DERAILING ELSEWHERE.

 

[SQ8]

Neighbor


- PAF Bought : "AEW&C" Not AWACS ie SAAB 2000 ERIEYE.

Link 16 is enabled in F16s Block 30 and above, else USA upgrades your A/C. Probable on Mirage 5 as well.

However, Complete No for J-7, JF 17, and Mirage 3. These 3 Birds will be vectored to Traget by AEW&C informed of Bandit Mvt and EW Saturation- Zone as well. Thats it, But Distance Locking using Signature from AEW&C and guiding BARAAMs Erasing Target = Negative

Again, some pointless "degrade" attempt for self satisfaction.
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN AWACS and AEW&C.

Just your feeble attempt to degrade something you havent a clue about.

Link-16 has the ability to hand-off target information to all upcoming PAF aircraft.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/6-24-8/tadilj.pdf
Multifunctional Information Distribution System (MIDS)
$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan’s F-16s
http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Documents%20and%20Images/Air/Sensor%20Systems/ERIEYE/ERIEYE_Short_100422.pdf

The Links should provide those people who are actually here to learn something that not only is link-16 capable of target information relay and handoff, it equips Pakistan's Erieye and F-16 fleets along with ground terminals.
Those who are only here to be thickheaded and skeptical just for the sake to let PAF down will have no difference in their opinions.

Now, The PAF has built a new link for the JF-17 with help from the Germans(whose radio it uses and not Chinese as some usual skeptics would want to assume) that is not only link-16 compatible but incorporates elements from link-22 as well.
These German Radio's not only equip the JF-17 , they also equip the Mirage ROSE, F-7PG fleets.
http://www.rohde-schwarz.com.pk/en/about/

 

[Alphacharlie]

Again, some pointless "degrade" attempt for self satisfaction.
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN AWACS and AEW&C.

Just your feeble attempt to degrade something you havent a clue about.

Link-16 has the ability to hand-off target information to all upcoming PAF aircraft.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/6-24-8/tadilj.pdf
Multifunctional Information Distribution System (MIDS)
$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan’s F-16s
http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Documents%20and%20Images/Air/Sensor%20Systems/ERIEYE/ERIEYE_Short_100422.pdf

The Links should provide those people who are actually here to learn something that not only is link-16 capable of target information relay and handoff, it equips Pakistan's Erieye and F-16 fleets along with ground terminals.
Those who are only here to be thickheaded and skeptical just for the sake to let PAF down will have no difference in their opinions.

Now, The PAF has built a new link for the JF-17 with help from the Germans(whose radio it uses and not Chinese as some usual skeptics would want to assume) that is not only link-16 compatible but incorporates elements from link-22 as well.
These German Radio's not only equip the JF-17 , they also equip the Mirage ROSE, F-7PG fleets.
About R&S Pakistan (Rohde & Schwarz)

Moderator - There are Gaps in your informationm.

The Rationale was not to Derail the Topic.

AWACS is a Term used by Americans for an Aerial Platform with following:-

a) Rotating Dome
b) Aerial Radar with Command Post Abilities
c) AWACS was an Generation younger to AEW&CS, when the Name was coined. The mail objective being EW & SigInt.
d) AWACS lacked Electro-Magnetic Pulse warfare or EW Bomb abilities.
e) AWACS Lacked Abilities to pritect itself from Cyber- Data ATTACKS.

Link 16 -

To activate Link 16 you need "MIDS-LVT(1) - Link 16 Tactical Airborne Terminal" which includes modules provide COMSEC and TACAN.

MIDS-LVT Link 16 Tactical Airborne Terminal - ViaSat

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/6-24-8/tadilj.pdf

US has not sold this critical piece to Pakistan to be installed on J-7, JF-17 or Mirages. Yes , might be on F16 Block 52. No there is no Data centric Tactical Connection system as developed as Linked 16. link 22 is under development with No confirmed information on deployment.

 

[SQ8]

Moderator - There are Gaps in your informationm.

The Rationale was not to Derail the Topic.

AWACS is a Term used by Americans for an Aerial Platform with following:-

a) Rotating Dome
b) Aerial Radar with Command Post Abilities
c) AWACS was an Generation younger to AEW&CS, when the Name was coined. The mail objective being EW & SigInt.
d) AWACS lacked Electro-Magnetic Pulse warfare or EW Bomb abilities.
e) AWACS Lacked Abilities to pritect itself from Cyber- Data ATTACKS.

Link 16 -

To activate Link 16 you need "MIDS-LVT(1) - Link 16 Tactical Airborne Terminal" which includes modules provide COMSEC and TACAN.

MIDS-LVT Link 16 Tactical Airborne Terminal - ViaSat

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/6-24-8/tadilj.pdf

US has not sold this critical piece to Pakistan to be installed on J-7, JF-17 or Mirages. Yes , might be on F16 Block 52. No there is no Data centric Tactical Connection system as developed as Linked 16. link 22 is under development with No confirmed information on deployment.

Nope, there arent.
It is your understanding that is off.

Link-16 is a protocol and not a piece of equipment. It is a standard just like UDP,TCP/IP that may be implemented by a manufacturer. Rhode & Schwartz are have produced Link standards in the past and have the ability to duplicate the standard.
Which are now in place with PAF aircraft other than US F-16s.

You do not need the US to manufacture a MIDS-LVT for you.. nor do you need them to install it.


Now as for the AWACS comment.. the AWACS term had little to do with all the rotating or whatever gook you have pasted.
It was a term coined by Westinghouse ,Boeing the USAF procurement office for the program to procure the replacement for the EC-121 system which only could act as a warning platform.

It is as specific to the so called parameters you have provided as saying Rotary engines only mean a Mazda Rx series.
AWACS means Airborne warning and control system..
It does not mean a rotodome or four engines or two male and one female pilot or whatever.
It means a platform that can perform the roles of airborne warning and control.. which is the same as an AEW&C aircraft.
If your post had even a hint of logic in it.. then the RAF would also call its E-3s AWACS.. which it does not.. and rather calls them Sentry AEW systems.

There is no need to stick to flawed logic just for the heck of it.

 

[Alphacharlie]

Nope, there arent.
It is your understanding that is off.

Link-16 is a protocol and not a piece of equipment. It is a standard just like UDP,TCP/IP that may be implemented by a manufacturer. Rhode & Schwartz are have produced Link standards in the past and have the ability to duplicate the standard.
Which are now in place with PAF aircraft other than US F-16s.

You do not need the US to manufacture a MIDS-LVT for you.. nor do you need them to install it.


Now as for the AWACS comment.. the AWACS term had little to do with all the rotating or whatever gook you have pasted.
It was a term coined by Westinghouse ,Boeing the USAF procurement office for the program to procure the replacement for the EC-121 system which only could act as a warning platform.

It is as specific to the so called parameters you have provided as saying Rotary engines only mean a Mazda Rx series.
AWACS means Airborne warning and control system..
It does not mean a rotodome or four engines or two male and one female pilot or whatever.
It means a platform that can perform the roles of airborne warning and control.. which is the same as an AEW&C aircraft.
If your post had even a hint of logic in it.. then the RAF would also call its E-3s AWACS.. which it does not.. and rather calls them Sentry AEW systems.

There is no need to stick to flawed logic just for the heck of it.

Thank you for your Views, I served in Heptr Unit for 7 years and have fair idea of the subject. Will Stop here . Disagree with your understanding on the Subject.

 

[Viper0011.]

Per my knowledge US has not sold L-88 Aerostats to Pakistan. If yes, then is it X Band Rdar ?

PAF has been polished by Americans till Mid 90s and has been given Best of Radars. Only 3rd Generation AEW&cs Can control UAV/UCAV . Erieye 2000 doesnt have this Capability Nor does ZDK Nor Does Phalcon EL/W-2075

I can track Hostile A/C from Aerostats but to launch a Projectile at a Bandit I need a A/C in air which is connected by Net Centric Link. Pakistan does not have this.

Indian FOB are having Battle surveillance from Sats in addition to Forward Operating Radars. So you Assertion is rejected.
Also, Sus have been based in Locations Like Halwara/Sirsa /Bhuj All over 110 Km Inside...............

It can operate under X band. Yes, but then KU bands are available too. There are radars that use frequency hopping due to different mods, Search Track, vs. Guidance.
For the rest of your post where you are rejecting my post, I don't really know how to answer as I don't understand your point. Indian Aerosats, etc have no impact on the scenario as I was talking about PAF's defensive doctrine for invading IAF planes.....?? Think you should re-read the post.

Second thing is, you are right, both the Indians and Pakistanis don't have the netcentric capability the way US has it. But the US military is going towards unmanned military, specially the planes to avoid putting its pilots in harms way. I don't think anyone has the money to spend that much in decades of r&d and prior experience.
However, you CAN integrate SAMS and fighters together through newer Radars. They can guide AAM's just as well as they would guide their own SAMS when fired. You do need another layer of network in between your fighters and the SAM based radars. Jets can fire missiles initially and SAM radars can then take over the continuous guidance to the AAM.

 

[Viper0011.]

Moderator - There are Gaps in your informationm.


AWACS is a Term used by Americans for an Aerial Platform with following:-

a) Rotating Dome
b) Aerial Radar with Command Post Abilities
c) AWACS was an Generation younger to AEW&CS, when the Name was coined. The mail objective being EW & SigInt.
d) AWACS lacked Electro-Magnetic Pulse warfare or EW Bomb abilities.
e) AWACS Lacked Abilities to pritect itself from Cyber- Data ATTACKS.

Link 16 -

To activate Link 16 you need "MIDS-LVT(1) - Link 16 Tactical Airborne Terminal" which includes modules provide COMSEC and TACAN.

You are SUPER incorrect. Allow me to correct you. AWACS is a short term for Airborne Warning and Control Systems. The idea is to Detect, Manage - Control, Destroy and Create Ground -Sea- Air Superiority in any situation. The following from your post have NOTHING to do with the TERM AWACS:
a) Rotating Dome
b) Aerial Radar with Command Post Abilities
c) AWACS was an Generation younger to AEW&CS, when the Name was coined. The mail objective being EW & SigInt.
d) AWACS lacked Electro-Magnetic Pulse warfare or EW Bomb abilities.
e) AWACS Lacked Abilities to pritect itself from Cyber- Data ATTACKS.

There were additions to initial E3 sentry as the warfare became more complex due to C4I systems. Nothing more. The AWACS communicates more securely than a lot of your intelligence agencies so it is Cyber Attack prone. Two AWACS can run operations like Desert Storm day and night!!! You can imagine hundreds of coalition aircraft, thousand of military vehicles, tanks, targets, hostile forces, their jets, SAMS, Missiles, etc, etc. ALL coordinated by TWO AWACS systems!!!! Hope you get the idea.

AEW&CS is for the newer more compact systems that CAN'T perform integrated functions like AWACS does on Land, Sea and Air. The smaller and newer version of AWACS planes simply don't have everything. They are very helpful in airborne early warning. But they lack certain control abilities in a very integrated manner. Plus they have a hard time in communicating with non NATO jets.

Link 16 is just a name for a secure data exchange protocol. Anyone can build their own. It is a piece of software, albeit very complex and combat proven with great EM jamming resistance. But different countries have developed their own protocols that translate or communicate with the link 16. Majority of the modern countries are NATO countries so they prefer American combat proven systems and use what's already proven, available and top notch!

 

[Safriz]

Again, some pointless "degrade" attempt for self satisfaction.
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN AWACS and AEW&C.

Just your feeble attempt to degrade something you havent a clue about.

Link-16 has the ability to hand-off target information to all upcoming PAF aircraft.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/6-24-8/tadilj.pdf
Multifunctional Information Distribution System (MIDS)
$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan’s F-16s
http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Documents%20and%20Images/Air/Sensor%20Systems/ERIEYE/ERIEYE_Short_100422.pdf

The Links should provide those people who are actually here to learn something that not only is link-16 capable of target information relay and handoff, it equips Pakistan's Erieye and F-16 fleets along with ground terminals.
Those who are only here to be thickheaded and skeptical just for the sake to let PAF down will have no difference in their opinions.

Now, The PAF has built a new link for the JF-17 with help from the Germans(whose radio it uses and not Chinese as some usual skeptics would want to assume) that is not only link-16 compatible but incorporates elements from link-22 as well.
These German Radio's not only equip the JF-17 , they also equip the Mirage ROSE, F-7PG fleets.
About R&S Pakistan (Rohde & Schwarz)

Does that mean all PAF assets are now interconnected?