PAF Chief in Washington

[Mani2020]

@Mani2020, Sir, the issue with the Su-27s back in the 90s was that Ukraine was not in any position to guarantee unhindered supply of spares and maintenance support. Russia on the other hand, when contacted in this context, was asking too much for spares and maintenance and was not willing to provide any guarantees either for depot level support. In the end the deal fizzled out.

The deal was under lime light in early 2000 as well at that time China had acquired sukhois from Russia and were also working on their j-11 series we would have acquired spare parts from China or through China...wouldn't have been that much of an issue ...considering after some time later we got engine from Russia through China for jf17s ..it wouldn't have been that much of a fuss as many think

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Don't bring funds into it as in early 2000's paf had funds as they didn't carry out any major purchase after embargo so that give them good time to save for the future ....and do you even know Ukraine was offering paf su-27s at a price of approx 8million dollars per piece back then with very low flying hours on them ....they had approx 70 su-27s with them along with more than 150 mig29s...

Great opportunity lost! But i'm sure those making the decision to buy or not to buy the Ukrainian jets would have though of the following things when making such decisions:

1. Spares, 2. Continued Support say atleast 15 to 20 years, 3. Evolution of the platform itself, 4. Armaments, 5. Overhaul Depot support etc.

All of the above provided over a period of twenty plus years was not a possibility given the number of components of Russian origin including the power plant!!! And at that time we were not warming up to Russia. Otherwise it would have been a good buy.

 

[aliyusuf]

The deal was under lime light in early 2000 as well at that time China had acquired sukhois from Russia and were also working on their j-11 series we would have acquired spare parts from China or through China...wouldn't have been that much of an issue ...considering after some time later we got engine from Russia through China for jf17s ..it wouldn't have been that much of a fuss as many think

On hindsight the Chinese acquisition of the Su-27 and the earlier evaluation by PAF seem so adjacent. But actually it was not. If memory serves me right it took place somewhere between '93 and '96 i.e. way before there was any hope for spares from China.

 

[Mani2020]

Great opportunity lost! But i'm sure those making the decision to buy or not to buy the Ukrainian jets would have though of the following things when making such decisions:

1. Spares, 2. Continued Support say atleast 15 to 20 years, 3. Evolution of the platform itself, 4. Armaments, 5. Overhaul Depot support etc.

All of the above provided over a period of twenty plus years was not a possibility given the number of components of Russian origin including the power plant!!! And at that time we were not warming up to Russia. Otherwise it would have been a good buy.

Yes mate they would have thought that obviously but as I already said that China had acquired sukhois as well at that time and were already working on their j-11 series so we would have acquired spares and relevant support from China or through China ....it wouldn't have been that difficult

On a side note check out how Iranian tomcats have been kept airworthy till today and even paf f16s are an example of how paf sourced parts from friendly countries and from open market

On hindsight the Chinese acquisition of the Su-27 and the earlier evaluation by PAF seem so adjacent. But actually it was not. If memory serves me right it took place somewhere between '93 and '96 i.e. way before there was any hope for spares from China.

Su-27 were introduced in PLAAF in 1991 and last aircraft of batch 2 was delivered to PLAAF in 1996

And as I already told you that the deal was again in lime light in early 2000s and guess what all su-30s to China were delivered between 2000 - 2003 and more for your info j-11 was introduced in 1998 that means work on them was started way before that

 

[Aamir Hussain]

So my friend if we are able to source spares for our F-16's than why not go a for a proven platform, fully integrated into our war planning and our pilots fully trained on them?

PAF does not have the luxury to go and buy stuff and use it for say 15 years and discard them and buy new ones. Planes bought in quantity have to serve the force for the next 25 to thirty years!!!

Each platform type now operated by PAF has well over twenty years of service in the force.

PAF pilots have flown J-11 but engine issues have precluded this type to join PAF.

Now the old adage "Asmaan say girra khajoor main atka" seems apt here don't you think?

I think buying the beast directly from Russia is the answer that is if they are willing to give it us. It would be a welcome addition to the high, med. and low configuration of PAF. hopefully bythen we would be operating not more than three different types.

 

[aliyusuf]

Su-27 were introduced in PLAAF in 1991 and last aircraft of batch 2 was delivered to PLAAF in 1996

Well even then how was PAF to know that eventually China would go rogue on Russian (with the Su-27 technology copyright) and go against Russia's interests and start reverse engineering and add insult to injury supply Pakistan with spare parts?

 

[Mani2020]

Well even then how was PAF to know that eventually China would go rogue on Russian (with the Su-27 technology copyright) and go against Russia's interests and start reverse engineering and add insult to injury supply Pakistan with spare parts?

Lol it isn't what you are trying to make it ...what I said before is either from China or through China which means su27 were in China in 1991 so paf would have sourced their parts through China and when I said su27 deal was again on the table in early 2000s that means paf would have known the j-11 series as it was introduced in 1998 so they could have had the opportunity to get parts from China as well ...as simple as that ...I don't know why its so difficult to understand ?

 

[aliyusuf]

Lol it isn't what you are trying to make it ...what I said before is either from China or through China which means su27 were in China in 1991 so paf would have sourced their parts through China and when I said su27 deal was again on the table in early 2000s that means paf would have known the j-11 series as it was introduced in 1998 so they could have had the opportunity to get parts from China as well ...as simple as that ...I don't know why its so difficult to understand ?

I am not as smart as many on this forum perhaps and if I have caused any irritation then be assured that was not my intention.

But since this the Yeltsin era and a period of immense turmoil ... it was not conceivable back then that parts flowing in thru China would have been allowed ... who knows ... but from what I heard from various sources was that at that time the way Russians negotiated on this deal for the spares did not go well with the PAF and there were apprehensions on the continued supply ... China or no China.

 

[Mani2020]

I am not as smart as many on this forum perhaps and if I have caused any irritation then be assured that was not my intention.

But since this the Yeltsin era and a period of immense turmoil ... it was not conceivable back then that parts flowing in thru China would have been allowed ... who knows ... but from what I heard from various sources was that at that time the way Russians negotiated on this deal for the spares did not go well with the PAF and there were apprehensions on the continued supply ... China or no China.

If China can give us localized variant of mig21 along with many goodies and assist us with so many things parts would have been no problem for them ...China is a tested and dependable friend ...


And no issues mate
..you haven't caused any irritation or any such thing ...have fun

 

[batmannow]

USA has entirely different defence requirements then pakistan. They have an aim to have the best air power which can strike any where on the globe.We on the other hand have one aim to defend ourselves against india. We have no cold or hot conflict with russia. With this aim and very limited funds F-16 is the only option left for pakistan

No sory ,
Im not humble with your POV, J10B is far far better option vs F-16s by now !

 

[CHI RULES]

Dear ,
I don't need to know what happened in kargill , as still many of mission details are still classified , but as a part of that executiinary force , I was there myself so??
Our higher command wanted to keep few of our F-16s flyble assests to counter any misadventure by IAF anywhere else in the rest of Pakistan , just not in kargill ?
But if we would have our whole fleet bueng able to flyable then we could have secured our supplies , which were well within our borders ?
No matter how many times mirrages would have attacked us , or how many GPS images been provided to IAF , if our F-16s secured us of our supplies , kargill would never been fight able to Indians as our positions were mobile & were on the top of Indians troops .
our military command just kept the, flyable F-16s to counter any attack of IAF on other strategic positions , that's what they could have done best !
& they did it ?
But for F-16s we , can't say anything surly still that they wouldn't be jammed if we go to defend ourselfes at our will ?
&that's the bottom line ?
Thanks god , kargill has brought us THUNDER !.
Kargill has showen the world that with very limited resources we can attack 3 times bigger enemy any time we want ?

It's natural to have some sort of contest between different arms as though I am not part of army yet brought up in cantonments through out my life. Still have close relatives in Army but not in PAF. Yet I may dare to say that facts showing bravery of Pak Army still this operation could be done in much better way by involving both Political leadership and PAF.

On the other hand I still believe that we should have at least two squadrons of JF17s with IRST pods on them as we can't expect AESA radar in shorter run. Further it's time for Pakistan to develop PAF and PN also. I believe u also know clearly what our grey areas are.

Our F16s clearly require AESA upgrades at least on latest birds along with IRST pods but US will neither provide us such sophisticated tech nor will allow any EU based company to do so. If we can negotiate effectively with Russia for SU35 even with PESA radar then we may hit the deck and get latest Techs for our F16s.

 

[batmannow]

Janab Salam Walekum. One Question Does NASA have such capablility to jam blk 52 ,53 , 54 and 84

copied from F-16.net and it is for the USAF to retire F-16 or not. Question here is whether F-16 is getting the upgrades or not. F-16 have been modified/upgraded continously and from the fighter plane which was designed with the guns only dogfighter it has become multirole fighter, and with sucessful history upto block 60/70. @batmannow is correct to one extent that its era have ended , not because of its capability but due to USAF shift of the f-16/f-15 to f-35/f-22. Though Pakistan did enjoy an edge over IAF when she acquired f16, but somehow pakistan inherited some restriction with the same, by the US. Not only it was restricted to use it against Indians in war, which will cause the ban for the spares, but ironically pakistan was not allowed the top of the tech. like AIM 129c7, IRST, aim9x, Programable DRFM(rumor its only done by US technitians). So the problem for Paf could be that not new technologies or upgrades will be available, but that time is far far away because PAF f-16 still lack certain edge like Aesa Radar, DRFM.IRST.

Now there are rumor for F-35 and some of my Pakistani member would like it to be in pakisani color, but does Pakistans PAF really have such requirement, I don't think it so. It is only meant for the countries like Russia and China where the fighter planes need to cross long country and distance. Now the people who wants it for the naval role, then does Pakistan is facing the threat which is coming from thousands of miles away to support Pakistani CBG and the distroyers who are enganged with the PN, to do the strike. Attacking the naval warship does not need a dogfighter, and for defensive naval operation a simple plane is required which could fire AsHM supported with AEW and costal radars all along the sea border.

Search for the best fighter plane is not easy and there are various factors to be seen and decided not on the basis of the money and requirement of today but with the foreseen future in the mind.


So which fighter plane do you suggest excluding Su-35. which is better than F-16 blk 60

J10 b is far far attractive option right now !
but that not means by any way that , I'm against getting new gadgets from USA ?
But at the same time , it should be minus F-16s .

It's natural to have some sort of contest between different arms as though I am not part of army yet brought up in cantonments through out my life. Still have close relatives in Army but not in PAF. Yet I may dare to say that facts showing bravery of Pak Army still this operation could be done in much better way by involving both Political leadership and PAF.

On the other hand I still believe that we should have at least two squadrons of JF17s with IRST pods on them as we can't expect AESA radar in shorter run. Further it's time for Pakistan to develop PAF and PN also. I believe u also know clearly what our grey areas are.

Our F16s clearly require AESA upgrades at least on latest birds along with IRST pods but US will neither provide us such sophisticated tech nor will allow any EU based company to do so. If we can negotiate effectively with Russia for SU35 even with PESA radar then we may hit the deck and get latest Techs for our F16s.

Dam political leadership was on board but they chickened out when , they were shoughted by Clinton ?
PAF at that time , couldn't be able to defend & attack at the same time , so the plan was good enough ?
It was our political leadership which tried to dumped us in the middle of dam war ?
Yes you are right on F-16S , BUT I feel that we should ask other , important weaponry from US rather then a fighter aircraft .
Yes we can try our best , on SU-35 & if not we still are good with j-10 bs ?

 

[zebra7]

J10 b is far far attractive option right now !
but that not means by any way that , I'm against getting new gadgets from USA ?
But at the same time , it should be minus F-16s .

J-10B is not mature enough to be at par with F-16block 60 nor does the chinese engine can be said reliable otherwise it might have joined PAF till now. The best option for PAF is the F-16 > block 52 at higher tier, and JF-17, and chinese flanker for naval if they can effort.

Our F16s clearly require AESA upgrades at least on latest birds along with IRST pods but US will neither provide us such sophisticated tech nor will allow any EU based company to do so. If we can negotiate effectively with Russia for SU35 even with PESA radar then we may hit the deck and get latest Techs for our F16s.

May be you are right but its just an speculated idea and could be possible and not possible and Indians could easily motivate Russians to avoid such situation. If Aesa is such great assets than there are Aesa radars available in European market for JF-17.

 

[batmannow]

J-10B is not mature enough to be at par with F-16block 60 nor does the chinese engine can be said reliable otherwise it might have joined PAF till now. The best option for PAF is the F-16 > block 52 at higher tier, and JF-17, and chinese flanker for naval if they can effort.

No F16s of any blk , even though j10bs are not as much tested as F-16S but still they can be settled down , same as we have worked on our blk 2 version of JFTs ?
still J10bs are far more close to our needs if any how Russians clearly don't get into SU- 35 deal with us ?
Su- 35s is our first choice , if not j- 10bs with 2 sqdrns can be a gap filling option with options of improvements in it ?
But again , F16s are not the only hardware we can negociate with our uncle Sam ?
We still can ask , more other components ?

 

[zebra7]

No F16s of any blk , even though j10bs are not as much tested as F-16S but still they can be settled down , same as we have worked on our blk 2 version of JFTs ?
still J10bs are far more close to our needs if any how Russians clearly don't get into SU- 35 deal with us ?
Su- 35s is our first choice , if not j- 10bs with 2 sqdrns can be a gap filling option with options of improvements in it ?
But again , F16s are not the only hardware we can negociate with our uncle Sam ?
We still can ask , more other components ?

I have written in my earlier post that why Su-35 is not the great choice and the requirement of the PAF.
If you look at the J10B and JF-17 then the chances of the JF-17 to mature is more and quick. Either way if go for JF-17, F-16 or Su-35, the IAF would still have the edge and the superiority because soon its Super Sukhoi program will start starting from 2017 and that too in such high nos., upgrading program of Mig29 SMT, Jaguar Darin 3, Mirrage 2005/9 will negates all acquisition. So its better to be defensive than offensive and invest more in better SAMS, Radars, and AWE/AWAAC and offense via cruise missiles and strandoff weapons.