PAF Air to Air and Air to Ground missile systems should evolve

[wiseone2]

PAF suffers with many chronic disorders. One of them is that they don't need to do anything other than sit idle and look pretty especially since May 28, 1998. It was really shocking to see how bad in shape was PAF during Kargil war due to the incompetence of the leadership. Normally they would complain about funds but that's not the real truth. If it was not Gen. Musharraf, PAF would not have Karakoram AWACS systems either.

with a limited budget the PAF cannot do much. there is no use ordering a lot of fancy equipment and not having the money to train and to maintain it.

 

[Zain Malik]

I respect you as members and friends but if you start personal unusual attacks on someone than prepare to get few.

Provide either logical replies or don't reply

Don't bring stupid justifications money training price of maintenance

If we think like you than no medical expansive machines should be bought to save life's

In war you save life with state of the art machines

Decide either human life is important or money

All this you have said to me MR...???

 

[salarsikander]

with a limited budget the PAF cannot do much. there is no use ordering a lot of fancy equipment and not having the money to train and to maintain it.

Still has done much better job as opposed their counterpart who have access to substantial fun and yet cant plan out properly

 

[TOPGUN]

with a limited budget the PAF cannot do much. there is no use ordering a lot of fancy equipment and not having the money to train and to maintain it.

Ok gene , PAF has done a lot and is doing great to hold its ground as it always had. The magic word indeed with a limited budget its takes a lot for a force to hold its ground and is doing great moving forward never underestimate the other side always remember that. Its very easy to say such remarks and play behind the screen hero.

 

[SQ8]

Sir, I call you the "sir" too so I think it is balanced. I respect the senior serious posters especially the ones who care for Pakistan and PAF. So I would refrain from taking sides or saying anything that may not be positive. However you will understand that his relative availability is a reason for his narrative being so popular (I'm not saying correct or incorrect) and he commands a certain level of respect and I respect him but at the same time I know he is not formally educated about technicalities of aerospace systems, however, he is open and honest about it. Everyone knows he is a car dealer and sees more with a car dealer's perspectives and that may or may not be the best approach when it comes to defence procurements as lot of factors are involved.

That is why, I wanted to learn both sides. You have made really good points and cleared a lot doubts I had. Thanks for that. Though I think there is a way of dealing with single man Russia too. But if Pakistan can gather enough money we should go for EFT. If KSA can deal with 5 nations, why can't Pakistan? Is it that we give up too easily as soon as we face some hurdles? because I don't KSA has better skills in foreign affairs other than it has a lot of oil and money to offer.


I was talking about French avionics suite ( which could have been possible through Rafael deal).
Yes, I know about MTBF and also about the poor record of Russian aircrafts (especially engines) in this regards.

My biggest gripe with the forum and the webmaster is aware of it; is the titles that exist on basis of post quantity and not quality; Senior, Elite is total BS. It is the same level of Senior and Elite by which we gauge Qaim Ali Shah

The issue with PAF has, is and for the foreseeable future anyway will be money. The scarcity of money and the temptations and loss of money in kickbacks.

The French avionics suite came about as an ancillary incentive for the French to get them to release the M2k to us, but once the MMRCA program started; the French treated us like we were first time buyers whom they never knew.
As long as the Rafale program exists and the Scorpene takes off, the French will be more stingy with us.

But other sources were available that were VERY advanced and also caught US State dept controls. There was a move to block them that succeeded but not before a small sample of the technology was shipped to us.

 

[war&peace]

My biggest gripe with the forum and the webmaster is aware of it; is the titles that exist on basis of post quantity and not quality; Senior, Elite is total BS. It is the same level of Senior and Elite by which we gauge Qaim Ali Shah

The issue with PAF has, is and for the foreseeable future anyway will be money. The scarcity of money and the temptations and loss of money in kickbacks.

The French avionics suite came about as an ancillary incentive for the French to get them to release the M2k to us, but once the MMRCA program started; the French treated us like we were first time buyers whom they never knew.
As long as the Rafale program exists and the Scorpene takes off, the French will be more stingy with us.

But other sources were available that were VERY advanced and also caught US State dept controls. There was a move to block them that succeeded but not before a small sample of the technology was shipped to us.

Well I think the things are shaping up slowly. However when I start my rant for the significance of indigenous development, many think I have some loose nuts because all I see people going crazy whenever even a rumour of some acquisition deal surfaces. Indigenisation is however a long term project and requires the strongest commitment from the highest level. It means systematic development of the human resource, improving R&D infrastructure and culture, raising the standards of education to at par with international level, doing collaborations, joint-ventures in academic and research field through exchange of faculty and students and establishing campuses of foreign institutions. Though the doors for defence technology may be closing, more channels of academic and research interaction are getting opened. The same country that may not be willing to share or sell certain key technological products, would be more than happy in doing joint research on more fundamental level (academic research) and thus preparing the essential human resource. Turkey has some quality institutes like METU and they have doing great research. It takes time but it happens. Dr Atta-ur-Rehman, u, the most honourable scientist in the entire Muslim world, under Musharraf, jump started the process by building HEC, scholarship programs, testing system and most significantly open sub campuses of the world renowned universities which due to the mess ups of Musharraf failed when he signed NRO and let the same garbage come into Pakistan and take over.

Until we do that, the world will keep exploiting and humiliating us whether its France or USA.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

If you had the ability to learn---you would not have posted such a silly post.

Sanctions or no sanctions---does not make any difference---.

All PROBABLE aircraft are analyzed as best as they can be---either on paper---thru all the reports that are available---and selections made on those basis---that when the sanctions come off---that is what we will get on a fastrak.

That is what a prudent military force works.

If Paf did not do that---then it is TREASON---. Because all of you guys---in your personal lives---when you get jobs and start making money---have already pre-planned what to get when the funds become available---. I do not see anyone who will ever deny that fact.

Guy---you repeat what the higher ups tell you---and I say what I tell the higher up. You have to kiss ar-se to get benefits from them---I don't give a fck about their stars---.

Kiddo---what I have told the GHQ---your legs would be shaking and yellow running down your legs if you had dared uttered those words.

I was not wrong in my analysis in the first gulf war---I was not wrong in the afghan war and neither in the iraq war---nor the Salala type incidence and nor the looming sanctions.

You are good TECHY guy---but you don't know diddley about deal making---tactics and strategy---.

Gripen was not because we had the JF17---but to steal the design parameters to build the JF17.

Keep up with your technical information---that is where you are good at.

You people's sob stories are a reason that the standards of the Paf and its procurement has gone down---.

Salute Sir Mastaan Khan for being as factual and objective. It is always a delight to read your posts.I didn't about your predictions about those wars since I'm not that old on this forum, but of course I see people justifying the lethargic and incompetent behaviours by blaming on money which is factually wrong.

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

I will tell you why---out of sheer incompetence. Even 24-30 Rafales would have made a day and night difference---because the deal for the EW suite for the JF17 would have been secured.

Can you imagine a 100 JF17's aircraft flying now equipped with french equipment and weapons---the aircraft would have been light years ahead of where it is now.

The deals are all about timings---. Just like job opportunities---you miss one and another and another---and then all opportunities are gone.

And yes---if the M2K's were procured in the 90's---the issue of BVR would not have been there---.

You are saying what I've been saying for a long time. There is a serious gap in strategic planning inside the Pakistani military. To hide the incompetence, they'd blame the civilian government for their corruption and "the financial situation". Which I call bullshiit as I know better.

Mushy alone, if he wanted to, could've changed the entire PAFs landscape. He had President Bush as his buddy and everyone from India to the US and in-between was ok with Pakistan needing whatever due to the WOT related support. Even Muhsy dropped the darn ball for the PAF.

There was NO reason to procure ONLY 18 F-16's when you know you are a sanction prone country. You execute a larger order, and then keep another one signed for future expansion. If he did justice with this situation, the first order would've been 36 -16, block 52. With 18-36 follow up. And with 20-40 used -16's (whatever would make sense from a pricing standpoint). That would've ensured the PAF would do just great till 2020-2022 as the JFT's advance their capability.

In the same timeframe, due to access to everything, Pakistan should've signed a couple of contracts with the French back in 2004. That to provide avionics and missiles for the JFT. Imagine a F-16 force of 150 jets, all MLU'd and BVR-able, supplemented by 150-200 JFT's close to M2k-2005 capability and using latest AMRAAMS and French BVR missiles. That would be a force to mess with.

But instead, Mushy was too busy moving $ 200+ million into Turkey, the US and the UK!! Sad for Pakistan. This is JUST one example, there are plenty, including the one you are giving. In the 90's and then in 2000's, there was NO effing reason to say no to M2K and to Rafale later. But somehow, common sense is at times, a LOT to ask for from the Pakistani military's strategic leadership. But you are right in majority of what you write. Many key decisions were missed and the PAF is way behind compared to where it would be if someone was using some brains!!

The ONLY good thing I've seen is that Pakistan when they executed MLU and -16 purchase agreement, also asked for a stockpile of all spares for 5 years worth of inventory and it rotates as the parts are used up. This way, they've ensured that in case of sanctions, they can use the -16's like normal for 5 years. 7-8 years if they reduced some flying hours and avoided extra flights, till another platform can be procured and tactics built, etc. That's it. The rest of the decisions were poor and lacked common sense. Let alone some wisdom and strategy!

Well I think the things are shaping up slowly. However when I start my rant for the significance of indigenous development, many think I have some loose nuts because all I see people going crazy whenever even a rumour of some acquisition deal surfaces. Indigenisation is however a long term project and requires the strongest commitment from the highest level..

I agree with you that things have started to shape up and that internal manufacturing is the way to go. However, if you had bought the M2K and the Rafales, you'd be operating M2K for over 20 years now, and the Rafales for over a decade now. Meaning, for a second, imagine how advance your JFT block I would be......and what's shaping up today, would've come out back in 2008. That's because of the experience, access and weapons that you'd already be operating.

But glad to see the advances. Nothing for the next 6-8 years will fill up the gap caused by skipping the Rafales, M2K. Add lack of ordering a larger number of -16 block 52's. And no blaming the civilians or the funds. Let's blame who caused the loss and give credit to where it deserves.

 

[Danish saleem]

for F-16 it s AIM 120
and JF-17 its SD-10.

these are BVR capable.

 

[IceCold]

I respect Though I think there is a way of dealing with single man Russia too.

IMO it is alot easier to deal with one man compared to a congress filled with shit load of assholes dancing on Indian money. Others can disagree but Pakistan should be able to deal with Putin and Chinese can help there. Indian lobby is there but we are making it a bit too much excuse out of it. Russians know Indian tilt towards USA and they havent shied away from showing it. Now whether we take advantage of this situation or not remains totally up on the decision makers. My gut feeling is that it wont be taken advantage off. As long as those God damn F-16s keep coming one way or other, PAF does not feel the need to look for anything else.

 

[khanasifm]

1. There is no ATLAS bomb ony ALTLIS II targeting pod for F16 from 80s which are day only pods, no night capability
2. MARTA 550 not seen recently so not sure if they are still available or past useful life (MARTA 550 I were limited and MART 550 II were all aspect introduced with Mirage 2k in 80s)
3. PL-5 , there is no pL5 or Pl9 in PAF only PL-5E II which were introduced with JF-17 and are all aspect equivalent of AIM9M
4. AIM120 C5 and SD-10? are the latest and better then earlier version of R77 (80s/90 era) which were exported but never introduced in Russian AF, they went with I think later versions
5. PAF has US MK Series (250,500,1000 and 2000 lbs bombs and eq. Laser kit to make them smart
6. AWC does assemble/manufacture kits to make dumb bomb smart (laser) but PAF still buy kits from US
7. PAF is suppose to introduce 5th Gen IIR AAM (not IR) missile which one and when ?

 

[war&peace]

IMO it is alot easier to deal with one man compared to a congress filled with shit load of assholes dancing on Indian money. Others can disagree but Pakistan should be able to deal with Putin and Chinese can help there. Indian lobby is there but we are making it a bit too much excuse out of it. Russians know Indian tilt towards USA and they havent shied away from showing it. Now whether we take advantage of this situation or not remains totally up on the decision makers. My gut feeling is that it wont be taken advantage off. As long as those God damn F-16s keep coming one way or other, PAF does not feel the need to look for anything else.

You are right and I ask them;
Isn't Egypt dealing with a single person?
Isn't Indonesia dealing with a single person?
The list will go on since dozens of countries have been dealing with Russia and USSR.
This is just admission of the incompetency that we can't deal with a single person.
In fact, Pakistan dealt with USSR in 1970s when we had a visionary civilian statesman ZAB. We got steel mills and many other heavy industries and there is no such example of technology transfer from USA since the start of our relations in early 1960s. So basically they lie to hide their incompetence but it is too late now in the time of Google, Wikipedia. People have access to the truth and no one buys their BS anymore.
They want to deal with west because that secures their post retirement plans. Where all the retired Gen, AVMs, Admirals go?
Just add one clause in their oath that no matter what, they will never seek any other country's citizenship or long term residence status (any stay more than 90 days) till death (i.e. post retirement too).
You will see a major improvement in the policies and equipment.

 

[CHI RULES]

1. There is no ATLAS bomb ony ALTLIS II targeting pod for F16 from 80s which are day only pods, no night capability
2. MARTA 550 not seen recently so not sure if they are still available or past useful life (MARTA 550 I were limited and MART 550 II were all aspect introduced with Mirage 2k in 80s)
3. PL-5 , there is no pL5 or Pl9 in PAF only PL-5E II which were introduced with JF-17 and are all aspect equivalent of AIM9M
4. AIM120 C5 and SD-10? are the latest and better then earlier version of R77 (80s/90 era) which were exported but never introduced in Russian AF, they went with I think later versions
5. PAF has US MK Series (250,500,1000 and 2000 lbs bombs and eq. Laser kit to make them smart
6. AWC does assemble/manufacture kits to make dumb bomb smart (laser) but PAF still buy kits from US
7. PAF is suppose to introduce 5th Gen IIR AAM (not IR) missile which one and when ?

What about Piranha wvr missile purchases frm Brazil.

 

[khanasifm]

1. Topic is PAF nothing to do with IAF here so off the topic, ignore
2. No evidence found of another type of wvr missile purchases from Brazil. South African had tried to push A darter but at the time it was not even with SAF or BAF and JF was in early stages

 

[MastanKhan]

I respect @MastanKhan not only me but the whole forum respects him and the great thing about him is that he does not have any authority on the forum but he produces the most authentic and original post and thus honoured.
the senior serious posters especially the ones who care for Pakistan and PAF. So I would refrain from taking sides or saying anything that may not be positive. However you will understand that his relative availability is a reason for his narrative being so popular (I'm not saying correct or incorrect) and he commands a certain level of respect and I respect him but at the same time I know he is not formally educated about technicalities of aerospace systems, however, he is open and honest about it. Everyone knows he is a car dealer and sees more with a car dealer's perspectives and that may or may not be the best approach when it comes to defence procurements as lot of factors are involved.

That is why, I wanted to learn both sides. You have made really good points and cleared a lot doubts I had. Thanks for that. Though I think there is a way of dealing with single man Russia too. But if Pakistan can gather enough money we should go for EFT. If KSA can deal with 5 nations, why can't Pakistan? Is it that we give up too easily as soon as we face some hurdles? because I don't KSA has better skills in foreign affairs other than it has a lot of oil and money to offer.


I was talking about French avionics suite ( which could have been possible through Rafael deal).
Yes, I know about MTBF and also about the poor record of Russian aircrafts (especially engines) in this regards.

Hi,

A sales person is ' trained ' to deal with people---to think on his feet and change directions on a dime---and be ready for alternatives.

It is not that the customer has to have a honda accord---what if I have a Toyota camry---that should work very well. Or if there is a camry available to me as a buyer--I would be game for it.

See---every idiot on this forum talks about a lack of funds---those fools have no clue---that no foreign seller would let you close into their aircrafts unless you don't show them the funds and their source----a letter of credit.

Otherwise it is a simple walk around---no flight testing.

I go back to the late 80's---every analyst who had the interest of pakistan at heart told the Paf not to pursue the second batch of 36 F16's---because the sanctions were coming.

I personally read the news papers and listened to the comments on the news---the peers would recommend the M2K's.

No--Paf forced itself into the F16's against all advice---Mein nay tau isi larki say shadi karni hai ( I only want to marry this girl )---.

They had the funds---the U S wrote the contract---the sanctions came---Paf kept hoping to get the aircraft---no go---kept paying the monthly / yearly payments---.

They were advised to post a law suit against the govt for re-nigging on the contract and stop payments---would not listen---.

Same thing with the M2K's----. They had to show the money to france to make the deal for the M2K's---the french agreed---they saw the 20% down---and the letter of credit.

Same thing happened with the Gripen---Paf still had to show the available funds---and those funds were in a large amount to get a 2--3 years access to analyze the Gripen and the same thing for the Rafale---for 1 year or something like that.

So---whomsoever is talking about a lack of funds is LYING on this forum---.

Who would allow a broke country like pakistan to test its aircraft's flight parameters for months on without seeing the dough---.

It is not a walk thru a frigging walmart---that you get to see the items and don't buy anything---.

This is sensitive information---has hidden secrets---. Why would anyone let someone get near to their technology unless they are assured that there is a deal somewhere in the making with available funds---.

I don't show vehicles to any customers who have bad credit unless they have funds available for down payment---and I would instruct my sales people to do the same---come back when you have down payment---who would want to give their time to someone who is broke and is dreaming---.

Getting parts for 5 years working is a total BULLSH-IT---it is just like buying Ibuprofen supply for the next 5 years----the nation need anti malaria pill---and typhoid pill and polio vaccinations---cholera medication---antibiotic---and all now to prevent the onslaught of a pandemic.

What are 3 engines per aircraft going to do against an air battle against the enemy---.

I rather need 3 frigging aircraft to fight the enemy----. I mean to say---stupidity has its limits---. What is 5 years maintenance supply going to do for me if the war starts tomorrow. I need machines to counter the enemy---.