PAF Air to Air and Air to Ground missile systems should evolve

[araz]

Sir,

Very good points and what you said may be 100% true. However, one thing is that we should always utilise when we get the opportunity but to us it seems, the decision making is sluggish. They kind of wait until such window of the opportunity is about to be closed(especially in lieu to USA). I'm not hinting at corruption (not over-ruling that 100% either) but I think PAF leadership has put some invisible locks on its thinking for example PAF cannot buy Russian origin aircrafts, a twin engine heavy is not useful or PAF cannot operate it.
I think now the opportunity for Su-35 is there but instead they have chosen to go for scrapes.

Agreed in some cases we may well be maniana. Look at my response to Mastan khans post for further elaboration. I do think you need need to realize that a lot goes on behind the scene which we dont hear of. The request for inventory needs to be backed with money. Now the Zardari era is a balck period in our history as nothing was acquired and even the JFT acquisition was jeoperdised due to lack of money. The JordanianF16s arrived purely due to the insistance of the Army chief and possibly release of some army funds.
Please also realize that Air force decisions are planned in advance and testing of platform and negotiations can take a long time. In the M2K deal in 98, the one that mastan Khan harps on about , the file was held up by Benazir not the PAF, The representation was made to the french after 90 days which as things go in acquisition cycles is not a particularly long time and they refused it. It seems someone on the french side was also in the money making scam(purely conjecture on my part).
A

 

[Zain Malik]

SU 35 VS F 16 BLK 52
as a professional who has better survivability chance

Sir SU-35 is a good aircraft but it is a Long Range Heavy Duty Fighter Will take more time to Turns And Maneuvers F-16 on the other hand Is a Medium weight Single engine Jet....But it is less advance than Su-35 There is 60-40 Chance....
But Su-30 will get defeated...

 

[SQ8]

@araz,

My man---you have a SOB STORY ready for everything.

They already knew that they were lacking equipment--so when 9/11 happened----why didn't act on fastark and get what was needed.

Prior to that---the U S had restrictions---and U S sanctions---they never happen without a CLEAR WARNING---. It is always loud and clear---and just like the members of today---who are not different than their fathers---are repeating the same mistakes---saying---nothing will happen.

I keep telling members---specially senior members---please---for once in your lives---be honest---be truthful in your analysis---but pakistanis can't even do that even after multiple warnings.

Smacking on your hand is different than slitting your throat---the french sanctions were like a smack on the hand---the U S sanctions were like slitting the throat---.

It is again disinformation to compare the two on the same level---.

The bottomline is---when the war came---the boys in the blue were not ready---.

The poster is right----the Paf never showed any urgency in buying aircraft after 9/11.

The scenario is just like this---someone's mother is dying for a lack of medicine---9/11 happens---medicine becomes available---the son claims---my mother is not that sick----she don't need medicine in a hurry---she is okay----she was never sick.

You are not coming out fighting----what is happening is that you have yet to learn to steam roll over those who have lame excuses----this is not fighting----this is covering up incompetence deceit and deception----this is trying to save you face from humiliation rather than face the truth-----.

He may have a sob story, all you have is repetitive ranting with this bold thing being the ONLY thing you have said which you decided to repeat for 10 more lines like some 75 year old with dementia without offering any proof or even a basic pathway this was not done.

Agreed in some cases we may well be maniana. Look at my response to Mastan khans post for further elaboration. I do think you need need to realize that a lot goes on behind the scene which we dont hear of. The request for inventory needs to be backed with money. Now the Zardari era is a balck period in our history as nothing was acquired and even the JFT acquisition was jeoperdised due to lack of money. The JordanianF16s arrived purely due to the insistance of the Army chief and possibly release of some army funds.
Please also realize that Air force decisions are planned in advance and testing of platform and negotiations can take a long time. In the M2K deal in 98, the one that mastan Khan harps on about , the file was held up by Benazir not the PAF, The representation was made to the french after 90 days which as things go in acquisition cycles is not a particularly long time and they refused it. It seems someone on the french side was also in the money making scam(purely conjecture on my part).
A

The issue with the M2Ks is now well written about by actual professionals all over and needs no repetition. After 2001, the initial attempt made by the technocrats with to pump the incoming aid and FDI into the consumerist economy. The Evaluation for a fighter started in 2001 because unlike the said poster I was at Ideas 2002 and speaking to the participants. However, fighter aircraft are not some cars that you can purchase off a lot after seeing one you like and signing a lease and require a bit more prudence and paperwork. The Block-52 buy was finalized in 2003 after the French declined to give us the M2K and offerred the Rafale instead. The gripen was never wanted as we already have the JF-17 in that category for air defence.


I have to sadly report that most of the said poster's writings now only contain baseless conjecture and whatever one dreams up in the middle of the night.

 

[war&peace]

The Block-52 buy was finalized in 2003 after the French declined to give us the M2K and offerred the Rafale instead.

Perhaps you have something to do with air force, if that's the case, Can you elaborate why did PAF refused to accept Rafael which is a better machine than M2K?

 

[MastanKhan]

He may have a sob story, all you have is repetitive ranting with this bold thing being the ONLY thing you have said which you decided to repeat for 10 more lines like some 75 year old with dementia without offering any proof or even a basic pathway this was not done.


The issue with the M2Ks is now well written about by actual professionals all over and needs no repetition. After 2001, the initial attempt made by the technocrats with to pump the incoming aid and FDI into the consumerist economy. The Evaluation for a fighter started in 2001 because unlike the said poster I was at Ideas 2002 and speaking to the participants. However, fighter aircraft are not some cars that you can purchase off a lot after seeing one you like and signing a lease and require a bit more prudence and paperwork. The Block-52 buy was finalized in 2003 after the French declined to give us the M2K and offerred the Rafale instead. The gripen was never wanted as we already have the JF-17 in that category for air defence.


I have to sadly report that most of the said poster's writings now only contain baseless conjecture and whatever one dreams up in the middle of the night.

Hi,

If you had the ability to learn---you would not have posted such a silly post.

Sanctions or no sanctions---does not make any difference---.

All PROBABLE aircraft are analyzed as best as they can be---either on paper---thru all the reports that are available---and selections made on those basis---that when the sanctions come off---that is what we will get on a fastrak.

That is what a prudent military force works.

If Paf did not do that---then it is TREASON---. Because all of you guys---in your personal lives---when you get jobs and start making money---have already pre-planned what to get when the funds become available---. I do not see anyone who will ever deny that fact.

Guy---you repeat what the higher ups tell you---and I say what I tell the higher up. You have to kiss ar-se to get benefits from them---I don't give a fck about their stars---.

Kiddo---what I have told the GHQ---your legs would be shaking and yellow running down your legs if you had dared uttered those words.

I was not wrong in my analysis in the first gulf war---I was not wrong in the afghan war and neither in the iraq war---nor the Salala type incidence and nor the looming sanctions.

You are good TECHY guy---but you don't know diddley about deal making---tactics and strategy---.

Gripen was not because we had the JF17---but to steal the design parameters to build the JF17.

Keep up with your technical information---that is where you are good at.

You people's sob stories are a reason that the standards of the Paf and its procurement has gone down---.

 

[war&peace]

Agreed in some cases we may well be maniana. Look at my response to Mastan khans post for further elaboration. I do think you need need to realize that a lot goes on behind the scene which we dont hear of. The request for inventory needs to be backed with money. Now the Zardari era is a balck period in our history as nothing was acquired and even the JFT acquisition was jeoperdised due to lack of money. The JordanianF16s arrived purely due to the insistance of the Army chief and possibly release of some army funds.
Please also realize that Air force decisions are planned in advance and testing of platform and negotiations can take a long time. In the M2K deal in 98, the one that mastan Khan harps on about , the file was held up by Benazir not the PAF, The representation was made to the french after 90 days which as things go in acquisition cycles is not a particularly long time and they refused it. It seems someone on the french side was also in the money making scam(purely conjecture on my part).
A

Yes sir, I do realise that international politics and Pakistan's internal situation have been working unfavourably for Pakistan especially when it comes to defence equipment partly due to the geopolitics and partly due to the financial reasons. And of course a lot of details are kept secret especially regarding the deals related to defence acquisition though I wish that things can be more open and transparent in Pakistan as people of Pakistan will know the truth but for that the level education of the nation as a whole needs to be improved. All we want is a strong defence and I think people in high positions in PAF are well aware of that and they are trying to do what they can. As we are witnessing the souring of the relations between Pak-USA, shouldn't we explore more easterly options like Russia? What is hampering us, is it finances, internal politics, geo-politics or some mental block? Though I know that Russian equipment may not have the same lustre as of the west origin equipment to which we have become addicted to for all the right and some wrong reasons, but I think in the end we need to defend our country and Russian equipment can get that job done more in a good way.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, perhaps you have something to do with air force, if that's the case, Can you please elaborate why did PAF refused to accept Rafael which is a better machine than M2K?

Hi,

I will tell you why---out of sheer incompetence. Even 24-30 Rafales would have made a day and night difference---because the deal for the EW suite for the JF17 would have been secured.

Can you imagine a 100 JF17's aircraft flying now equipped with french equipment and weapons---the aircraft would have been light years ahead of where it is now.

The deals are all about timings---. Just like job opportunities---you miss one and another and another---and then all opportunities are gone.

And yes---if the M2K's were procured in the 90's---the issue of BVR would not have been there---.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

I will tell you why---out of sheer incompetence. Even 24-30 Rafales would have made a day and night difference---because the deal for the EW suite for the JF17 would have been secured.

Can you imagine a 100 JF17's aircraft flying now equipped with french equipment and weapons---the aircraft would have been light years ahead of where it is now.

The deals are all about timings---. Just like job opportunities---you miss one and another and another---and then all opportunities are gone.

And yes---if the M2K's were procured in the 90's---the issue of BVR would not have been there---.

Sir,
That's your point of view and I do see your honesty in it and it always brings a new light and adds to my knowledge. I'm thankful to you for that. The scenario you have presented is like a dream, JF-17 equipped with latest avionics and flanked by a Rafael would be formidable combination.
But as sir @araz has been saying that a lot goes behind the scenes so I really want to know their (@Oscar ) opinions / info so as to have a complete picture. I'm not here to pass a judgement since I'm not in a position but you all know that we all love PAF and want to strengthen it since the importance of great air power cannot be overstated. It was duly recognised by our beloved founding father Quaid-e-Azam and the significance of air power has only increased. I think that if the finances are problem, we can make a special fund for PAF and appeal the nation and overseas Pakistanis to contribute towards the defence of the nation and i would like contribute as much as I can at that time.

 

[SQ8]

Sir, perhaps you have something to do with air force, if that's the case, Can you please elaborate why did PAF refused to accept Rafael which is a better machine than M2K?

Money. The price for the Rafale at the time was still way more expensive than the PAF was willing to pay for( the Indians are having the same issue today). The EF was also considered but the complexities of dealing with no less than 5 nations and their political systems for approval did not seem worth it.

 

[war&peace]

Money. The price for the Rafale at the time was still way more expensive than the PAF was willing to pay for( the Indians are having the same issue today). The EF was also considered but the complexities of dealing with no less than 5 nations and their political systems for approval did not seem worth it.

Then we are left with Su-35. But we should have negotiated a good deal with France and at least a loan on easy instalments the kind of they offered to Egypt ( sir @MastanKhan stated) in one of his posts. If we couldn't a lot of them, 1-2 squadrons could have been great especially if it opened the EW suite for our JF-17s and we could bridge the numerical gap with JF-17 with great avionics package. But that's my limited knowledge, IDK what went wrong behind the closed doors.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

If you had the ability to learn---you would not have posted such a silly post.

Sanctions or no sanctions---does not make any difference---.

All PROBABLE aircraft are analyzed as best as they can be---either on paper---thru all the reports that are available---and selections made on those basis---that when the sanctions come off---that is what we will get on a fastrak.

That is what a prudent military force works.

If Paf did not do that---then it is TREASON---. Because all of you guys---in your personal lives---when you get jobs and start making money---have already pre-planned what to get when the funds become available---. I do not see anyone who will ever deny that fact.

Guy---you repeat what the higher ups tell you---and I say what I tell the higher up. You have to kiss ar-se to get benefits from them---I don't give a fck about their stars---.

Kiddo---what I have told the GHQ---your legs would be shaking and yellow running down your legs if you had dared uttered those words.

I was not wrong in my analysis in the first gulf war---I was not wrong in the afghan war and neither in the iraq war---nor the Salala type incidence and nor the looming sanctions.

You are good TECHY guy---but you don't know diddley about deal making---tactics and strategy---.

Gripen was not because we had the JF17---but to steal the design parameters to build the JF17.

Keep up with your technical information---that is where you are good at.

You people's sob stories are a reason that the standards of the Paf and its procurement has gone down---.

MK no one has time for your useless fake wisdom. You are nothing but an old man at the twilight of his life trying to remain relevant to the young minds of today by gloating about your "strategy" and "tactical mindet".Now I was willing to humour you because you are useful when whatever little is left of your Pakistani nationalism wakes up at an Indian trolling but now its just plain boring and also dangerous to young minds whom you pollute with your nonsense.

There is literally no difference in your attitude today and that of Donald Trump's self gradoising ideas about how he has the perfect idea without actually knowing diddly squat what he is talking about while bleating away "the system is broken! the system is Broken!".

You talking about the guys upstairs is irrelevant, your not giving a hoot what they say is also irrelevant because as inept as they may be , they will still have many many many more accomplishments under their belt as compared to you.

Please keep your lectures on personal development to yourself and try for once to admit that you are actually just making stuff up as you go along rather than reading up for once and trying to hopefully become the poster you ONCE were.

Also, FYI.. maybe you forgot; that term TECHY (that you use so disparagingly whilst having gloating on having some engineering prowess) is a stand in for actual knowledge or even information. None of which you seem to present or even care to present; and are setting the same standard for the young minds of the next generation whilst you try to deride them with cynism into accepting your "ignotum per ignotius"

Then we are left with Su-35. But we should have negotiated a good deal with France and at least a loan on easy instalments the kind of they offered to Egypt ( sir @MastanKhan stated) in one of his posts. If we couldn't a lot of them, 1-2 squadrons could have been great especially if it opened the EW suite for our JF-17s and we could bridge the numerical gap with JF-17 with great avionics package. But that's my limited knowledge, IDK what went wrong behind the closed doors.

Now, if we focus on the great "sir" MK and his reference to the Egypt deal; the Egypt deal also involves the purchase of various other equipment; but more importantly it also involves a strong Russian interest in reentering the Egyptian arms market.

Till recently, the Russians would not even go beyond basic reviews due to the Indian lobby. As for the current situation with the Su-35, the problem is NOT just purchase but sustaining the aircraft via spares and other items. Even the Indians have only recently been able to sustain some percentage of Su-30 operations without having to send parts back to Russia for overhaul, and these are their best defense purchase client which MAKES that aircraft in its own country!

By comparison, the usual rant MK makes about the F-16; we can fix literally everything on the aircraft in-house and have no requirement for support from US contractors save perhaps for the Sniper pod. In addition, the much derided period where we "wasted" after 2001 was spent procuring spares for the F-15 block-15 fleet that we have. To the extend that now we can sustain high intensity operations for the F-16 for a good week in a conflict. So the kargil issue where we had spares shortage to operate the aircraft is no longer a problem( this isnt some pointless stockpiling as I am sure some will come up with but a well planned MRP system that takes in a lot of factors)

As much as we deride America in terms of its sanctions; the amount of influence it takes to change things in America is much greater as compared to Russia. Whereas it takes entire lobbying groups to change opinion in the US; it takes one man to change a Russian decision.

So no, the Su-35 was never a serious option other than curiosity and is not required as much as self proclaimed "experts" like "SIR" will suggest.

EW suite for our JF-17s and we could bridge the numerical gap with JF-17 with great avionics package. But that's my limited knowledge, IDK what went wrong behind the closed doors.

Why would you be looking for a Russian EW suite when you have much better suites available via suppliers in the East and from Europe?
Even though there has been a huge improvement , the MTBF (mean time between failures) for Russian equipment is much less when compared to many other vendors around the world. Again, the idea is to reduce costs throughout.
@PARIKRAMA Certain members "celebrating" the A-330 MRT cancellation have simply failed to see this in terms of the quick saving. Typical Desi mentality.

 

[war&peace]

Now, if we focus on the great "sir" MK and his reference to the Egypt deal; the Egypt deal also involves the purchase of various other equipment; but more importantly it also involves a strong Russian interest in reentering the Egyptian arms market.

Till recently, the Russians would not even go beyond basic reviews due to the Indian lobby. As for the current situation with the Su-35, the problem is NOT just purchase but sustaining the aircraft via spares and other items. Even the Indians have only recently been able to sustain some percentage of Su-30 operations without having to send parts back to Russia for overhaul, and these are their best defense purchase client which MAKES that aircraft in its own country!

By comparison, the usual rant MK makes about the F-16; we can fix literally everything on the aircraft in-house and have no requirement for support from US contractors save perhaps for the Sniper pod. In addition, the much derided period where we "wasted" after 2001 was spent procuring spares for the F-15 block-15 fleet that we have. To the extend that now we can sustain high intensity operations for the F-16 for a good week in a conflict. So the kargil issue where we had spares shortage to operate the aircraft is no longer a problem( this isnt some pointless stockpiling as I am sure some will come up with but a well planned MRP system that takes in a lot of factors)

As much as we deride America in terms of its sanctions; the amount of influence it takes to change things in America is much greater as compared to Russia. Whereas it takes entire lobbying groups to change opinion in the US; it takes one man to change a Russian decision.

So no, the Su-35 was never a serious option other than curiosity and is not required as much as self proclaimed "experts" like "SIR" will suggest.

I respect @MastanKhan not only me but the whole forum respects him and the great thing about him is that he does not have any authority on the forum but he produces the most authentic and original post and thus honoured.
the senior serious posters especially the ones who care for Pakistan and PAF. So I would refrain from taking sides or saying anything that may not be positive. However you will understand that his relative availability is a reason for his narrative being so popular (I'm not saying correct or incorrect) and he commands a certain level of respect and I respect him but at the same time I know he is not formally educated about technicalities of aerospace systems, however, he is open and honest about it. Everyone knows he is a car dealer and sees more with a car dealer's perspectives and that may or may not be the best approach when it comes to defence procurements as lot of factors are involved.

That is why, I wanted to learn both sides. You have made really good points and cleared a lot doubts I had. Thanks for that. Though I think there is a way of dealing with single man Russia too. But if Pakistan can gather enough money we should go for EFT. If KSA can deal with 5 nations, why can't Pakistan? Is it that we give up too easily as soon as we face some hurdles? because I don't KSA has better skills in foreign affairs other than it has a lot of oil and money to offer.

Why would you be looking for a Russian EW suite when you have much better suites available via suppliers in the East and from Europe?
Even though there has been a huge improvement , the MTBF (mean time between failures) for Russian equipment is much less when compared to many other vendors around the world. Again, the idea is to reduce costs throughout.
@PARIKRAMA Certain members "celebrating" the A-330 MRT cancellation have simply failed to see this in terms of the quick saving. Typical Desi mentality.

I was talking about French avionics suite ( which could have been possible through Rafael deal).
Yes, I know about MTBF and also about the poor record of Russian aircrafts (especially engines) in this regards.

 

[Jaam92]

PAF comparing
F 16 on SU 30 is like comparing Bugatti with Mercedes AMG

no offence fact is even SU 30 Is at par with F 16 in numbers alone it take F 16 out

Well PAF always have defence thinking and they have fighter jets which can defend their homeland not attack and be offensive
India is a big country it has to defend huge area and they need jets like SU 30 that can take flight from Andra Pardesh or Orissa and attack Pakistan for that SU 30 suits them
Right now Pakistan cannot afford big jets like SU 35 etc we need to concentrate on defence of our borders and after some Success of CPEC we would be in better position to procures or co-produce big jets

 

[CHI RULES]

Money. The price for the Rafale at the time was still way more expensive than the PAF was willing to pay for( the Indians are having the same issue today). The EF was also considered but the complexities of dealing with no less than 5 nations and their political systems for approval did not seem worth it.

In addition Rafael was not having AESA or other current gadgets available now.

Hi,

If you had the ability to learn---you would not have posted such a silly post.

Sanctions or no sanctions---does not make any difference---.

All PROBABLE aircraft are analyzed as best as they can be---either on paper---thru all the reports that are available---and selections made on those basis---that when the sanctions come off---that is what we will get on a fastrak.

That is what a prudent military force works.

If Paf did not do that---then it is TREASON---. Because all of you guys---in your personal lives---when you get jobs and start making money---have already pre-planned what to get when the funds become available---. I do not see anyone who will ever deny that fact.

Guy---you repeat what the higher ups tell you---and I say what I tell the higher up. You have to kiss ar-se to get benefits from them---I don't give a fck about their stars---.

Kiddo---what I have told the GHQ---your legs would be shaking and yellow running down your legs if you had dared uttered those words.

I was not wrong in my analysis in the first gulf war---I was not wrong in the afghan war and neither in the iraq war---nor the Salala type incidence and nor the looming sanctions.

You are good TECHY guy---but you don't know diddley about deal making---tactics and strategy---.

Gripen was not because we had the JF17---but to steal the design parameters to build the JF17.

Keep up with your technical information---that is where you are good at.

You people's sob stories are a reason that the standards of the Paf and its procurement has gone down---.

Dear Sir, with due respect ur negative comments show ur old grudge with PAF/Officials perhaps u were in youth rejected to be fir for PAF service. However if u stop below belt statements u may play a good role as devil's advocate in constructive way.

 

[Super Falcon]

As your simile likens F-16 to Bugatti and Su 30 to Mercedes AMG, you should know that former is far superior to the latter.

Don't agree with you F 16 was was better

Sir SU-35 is a good aircraft but it is a Long Range Heavy Duty Fighter Will take more time to Turns And Maneuvers F-16 on the other hand Is a Medium weight Single engine Jet....But it is less advance than Su-35 There is 60-40 Chance....
But Su-30 will get defeated...

SU 35 is most maneuverable jet it never needed canards due to its superior technology of thrust vectoring which only F 22 E AS enjoys in US

CHI RULES I personally think you and MR OSCAR has some personal grudge to mastan Khan due to both of you don't have IQ level or sense of thinking what is right

I respect you as members and friends but if you start personal unusual attacks on someone than prepare to get few.

Provide either logical replies or don't reply

Don't bring stupid justifications money training price of maintenance

If we think like you than no medical expansive machines should be bought to save life's

In war you save life with state of the art machines

Decide either human life is important or money