PAF Air Chief in Russia discusses joint exercises

[New World]

This was seriously bad planning on PAF's part. Having access to Rafale tech back then, would've allowed you guys to also get M2K type of tech for the JFT. Or, learn from the Rafale and build similar capability for the JFT. That mistake of not taking advantage of either (M2K-5 or Rafale) has cost the PAF over 12 years of damage. Not to mention the 90's!! So that's like 2 decades lost in my opinion.

@MastanKhan : I am sure you'd like to chime in here too

PAF lost 2 decades of advancement because in 1990s french were ready to sell their most advance version of M2K to Pakistan but PAF reject the offer when deal was on final stage.
but in 2002-4 they wanted same M2K-5 which were offered to them in 1990s but this time French were offering them most advance fighter jet in the world in 4th gen. But PAF was interested in old jets and reject the most advance fighter jet.

 

[MastanKhan]

This was seriously bad planning on PAF's part. Having access to Rafale tech back then, would've allowed you guys to also get M2K type of tech for the JFT. Or, learn from the Rafale and build similar capability for the JFT. That mistake of not taking advantage of either (M2K-5 or Rafale) has cost the PAF over 12 years of damage. Not to mention the 90's!! So that's like 2 decades lost in my opinion.

@MastanKhan : I am sure you'd like to chime in here too

Hi,

Viper---what can I say---. After 10 years of hitting my head against the minds of the pakistanis---they have just started to realize that their air force---the great Paf HAS fkd them up real bad---in the last 25 - 30 years time period.

Hi,

It is stupidity all over again----. First of all---the Rafale was offered to pakistan and not the M2K's after 9/11.

If the deal for the Rafale would have been done---then there was no reason for France to stop the progress of the JF17 EW suite----.

So---in 2010---the JF17 would have been as potent as the BLK52 F16.

So---with 40 Rafales---and over a 100 JF17's with French weapons and EW suite----who would need the sanction prone F16 BLK52's---.

 

[graphican]

Hi,

Viper---what can I say---. After 10 years of hitting my head against the minds of the pakistanis---they have just started to realize that their air force---the great Paf HAS fkd them up real bad---in the last 25 - 30 years time period.

Hi,

It is stupidity all over again----. First of all---the Rafale was offered to pakistan and not the M2K's after 9/11.

If the deal for the Rafale would have been done---then there was no reason for France to stop the progress of the JF17 EW suite----.

So---in 2010---the JF17 would have been as potent as the BLK52 F16.

So---with 40 Rafales---and over a 100 JF17's with French weapons and EW suite----who would need the sanction prone F16 BLK52's---.

You are on point. Thanks for your analysis. Past is behind and Future is yet to come. What do you think are our best options at this stage? Pakistan needs another platform, possibly Su-35s - and if they arrive, can we get something similar from Russians for JF-17 and still be able to make JF-17s as capable as F-16 BLK52s?

Any opinion and insight is welcome.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

Viper---what can I say---. After 10 years of hitting my head against the minds of the pakistanis---they have just started to realize that their air force---the great Paf HAS fkd them up real bad---in the last 25 - 30 years time period.

Hi,

It is stupidity all over again----. First of all---the Rafale was offered to pakistan and not the M2K's after 9/11.

If the deal for the Rafale would have been done---then there was no reason for France to stop the progress of the JF17 EW suite----.

So---in 2010---the JF17 would have been as potent as the BLK52 F16.

So---with 40 Rafales---and over a 100 JF17's with French weapons and EW suite----who would need the sanction prone F16 BLK52's---.

So can I conclude that it was pro-US or pro-F16 lobby that jeopardised the Rafale deal and the same happend with J-10 deal (another F16 competitor) so they will keep on messing up with all the deals that appear to kill the need for F16s or other US A/Cs?

 

[MastanKhan]

You are on point. Thanks for your analysis. Past is behind and Future is yet to come. What do you think are our best options at this stage? Pakistan needs another platform, possibly Su-35s - and if they arrive, can we get something similar from Russians for JF-17 and still be able to make JF-17s as capable as F-16 BLK52s?

Any opinion and insight is welcome.

Hi,

What it really needs is around 60---70 JH7B's----and as usual---I am only talking about what we can get---that is why no SU34 / 35's or the J16's----.

And alongwith them---at least 24 EFT's----.

The JH7B to touch and feel the pulse of maharashtra and fly cover over the sea lanes---.

And as for the JF17 to be equal to the BLK52----yes it wil happen---but 10--15 years would be wasted counting from 2007-08.

I mean to say---you cannot run a successful operation to develop and grow by making such blunders---.

 

[mansoor raja]

Russia and Pakistan are close friends today. We can expect more Sukoi, MI helicopter deals and smart bombs

 

[MastanKhan]

You are on point. Thanks for your analysis. Past is behind and Future is yet to come. What do you think are our best options at this stage? Pakistan needs another platform, possibly Su-35s - and if they arrive, can we get something similar from Russians for JF-17 and still be able to make JF-17s as capable as F-16 BLK52s?

Any opinion and insight is welcome.

Hi,

India will sabotage every effort to arm JF17 with european EW suite----. It will use FALSE FLAG operations to divert the focus pf the deal.

So---the only place left for paf is Italy---china & Turkey---.

Bottomline---too much time has been wasted---the enemy already knows how deadly an aircraft would the JF17 be with the right package---. They are already seeing a hint of it on the Gripen NG display----.

So---every effort will be made by the enemy to sabotage the deal any which way that it can----.

So---what does that mean---the real saboteuers are the generals of the Paf---.

 

[Viper0011.]

So can I conclude that it was pro-US or pro-F16 lobby that jeopardised the Rafale deal and the same happend with J-10 deal (another F16 competitor) so they will keep on messing up with all the deals that appear to kill the need for F16s or other US A/Cs?

It wasn't pro anything lobby. It was people lazy enough not to effing realize the threats the country faced!! Somehow their chill mode, after losing the entire decade in the 90's wasn't over yet.

Right now, as we speak, you are facing over 250 advanced jets right around your border deployed and they are all 4th gen!! And then there are the older strike aircraft like the Jaguars. An air force and a country who'd get into this situation one day, does it call out for the air force planners to work so lazy and slow like they have the down syndrome? This is inexcusable laziness that can hurt the entire country a lot!!

 

[graphican]

Hi,

India will sabotage every effort to arm JF17 with european EW suite----. It will use FALSE FLAG operations to divert the focus pf the deal.

So---the only place left for paf is Italy---china & Turkey---.

Bottomline---too much time has been wasted---the enemy already knows how deadly an aircraft would the JF17 be with the right package---. They are already seeing a hint of it on the Gripen NG display----.

So---every effort will be made by the enemy to sabotage the deal any which way that it can----.

So---what does that mean---the real saboteuers are the generals of the Paf---.

Many thanks Sir. I have a slightly different perspective on India's influence and what it can pull of against Pakistan. The strongest ally India had was Russia and that too is being replaced by USA. A stable Pakistan with improved economy and leverages on the offer for cooperating countries is a different country than it used to be. An hour ago, I was creating a post on the subject but let me paste an excerpt here.

I find Pakistan and Russia have great potentials to share. Russia always wanted an access to warm waters and that is now possible through CPEC. Pakistan should invite Russia to join CPEC as a partner country and should call it CPR-EC instead. Pakistan should also offer Russia dedicated economic zones in Pakistan and a free access to and from Gwadar port. If this would happen, Russia will be willing to offer Pakistan an equal footing and access to its intellectual and military wealth. Its a world in which you give and then take back - and now we have a gold to offer to get intellectual gold back.

Another great aspect, which previously used to hinder Pakistan-Russia relationship was American influence on Pakistan which has evaporated naturally. That aspect makes it possible to have a transition from "American North" to "New Norths" and China and Russia together are our "New North".

We can look at Pakistan's options in two modes; "what we currently have in hand" vs "what we can potentially have". If we look at "what we currently have in hand" then sure, China ant Turkey are the only viable options - but if you look at "what is possible" then a lot more is possible - and I see Russian and European defence hardware both possible and plausible.

 

[_NOBODY_]

Hi,

What it really needs is around 60---70 JH7B's----and as usual---I am only talking about what we can get---that is why no SU34 / 35's or the J16's----.

And alongwith them---at least 24 EFT's----.

The JH7B to touch and feel the pulse of maharashtra and fly cover over the sea lanes---.

And as for the JF17 to be equal to the BLK52----yes it wil happen---but 10--15 years would be wasted counting from 2007-08.

I mean to say---you cannot run a successful operation to develop and grow by making such blunders---.

Sir now that Rafale is gone EFT is the only key left to upgrade JF-17 to the level of Gripen NG. With EFT we can easily get our hands on Selex ES's AESA radar, IRST. However I am not sure that if Selex ES's will provide EW/ECM suite for JF-17?

 

[war&peace]

It wasn't pro anything lobby. It was people lazy enough not to effing realize the threats the country faced!! Somehow their chill mode, after losing the entire decade in the 90's wasn't over yet.

Right now, as we speak, you are facing over 250 advanced jets right around your border deployed and they are all 4th gen!! And then there are the older strike aircraft like the Jaguars. An air force and a country who'd get into this situation one day, does it call out for the air force planners to work so lazy and slow like they have the down syndrome? This is inexcusable laziness that can hurt the entire country a lot!!

I suggest that PAF leadership should be relieved of certain responsibilities and decision making and one of these is the acquisition of A/C and other system and negotiating the deals or at least they should not be alone and final decision should be made at CJSC level through a committee comprising of weapon experts, PAF members, strategists / policy-makers, business men and negotiators.

 

[princefaisal]

Hi,

Viper---what can I say---. After 10 years of hitting my head against the minds of the pakistanis---they have just started to realize that their air force---the great Paf HAS fkd them up real bad---in the last 25 - 30 years time period.

Hi,

It is stupidity all over again----. First of all---the Rafale was offered to pakistan and not the M2K's after 9/11.

If the deal for the Rafale would have been done---then there was no reason for France to stop the progress of the JF17 EW suite----.

So---in 2010---the JF17 would have been as potent as the BLK52 F16.

So---with 40 Rafales---and over a 100 JF17's with French weapons and EW suite----who would need the sanction prone F16 BLK52's---.

Pakistan should have increased the stock of MLU'd F-16s when relations with USA were better. But the time has gone.

Now Italy is ready to improve defence relations with Pakistan, and its time to get quality sub-systems for JF-17 and Long range SAMs from Italy.

 

[nomi007]

something is cocking

 

[MastanKhan]

Many thanks Sir. I have a slightly different perspective on India's influence and what it can pull of against Pakistan. The strongest ally India had was Russia and that too is being replaced by USA. A stable Pakistan with improved economy and leverages on the offer for cooperating countries is a different country than it used to be. An hour ago, I was creating a post on the subject but let me paste an excerpt here.

I find Pakistan and Russia have great potentials to share. Russia always wanted an access to warm waters and that is now possible through CPEC. Pakistan should invite Russia to join CPEC as a partner country and should call it CPR-EC instead. Pakistan should also offer Russia dedicated economic zones in Pakistan and a free access to and from Gwadar port. If this would happen, Russia will be willing to offer Pakistan an equal footing and access to its intellectual and military wealth. Its a world in which you give and then take back - and now we have a gold to offer to get intellectual gold back.

Another great aspect, which previously used to hinder Pakistan-Russia relationship was American influence on Pakistan which has evaporated naturally. That aspect makes it possible to have a transition from "American North" to "New Norths" and China and Russia together are our "New North".

We can look at Pakistan's options in two modes; "what we currently have in hand" vs "what we can potentially have". If we look at "what we currently have in hand" then sure, China ant Turkey are the only viable options - but if you look at "what is possible" then a lot more is possible - and I see Russian and European defence hardware both possible and plausible.

Hi,

Russia indeed wants to get to the warm waters---but it has to come thru afghanistan---.

Secondly---the russian bear has not forgotten pakistan's role in the 80's russian afghan war---.

Russians move very cautiously once bitten---and they have long memories---.

Thirdly---when dealing with the russians---you have to work from a position of strength---and cannot give everything away---.

You have to LEARN to TALK to the russians.

Just remember---money is nothing----it is just the lack of it that is a problem---you never want to flaunt your money at the russians---.

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

If the deal for the Rafale would have been done---then there was no reason for France to stop the progress of the JF17 EW suite----.

Italians have usually been better accommodating than the french. Look at Selex forget Dassault.

Secondly---the russian bear has not forgotten pakistan's role in the 80's russian afghan war---.

Some Pakistani COAS needs to swallow up his balls, go to Putin and admit to mistakes being made in the past(Afghanistan/SU-27/MiG29?). The Russians may have long memories, even while drunk, they'll be willing to move on once you start closing deals rather than showing "interests" in Russian products.

There are plenty of terrorist groups from the CARs that have been taken on by Russian Spetsnaz, experience that can be replicated and exchanged.

Swallow up the ego and pride of the past and look towards the future.