PAF Air Chief in Russia discusses joint exercises

[Manindra]

Mig 21.

You forgot MIG 15

 

[New World]

And that will the worst mistake ever done by PAF...!!

Strategic Planning is like a house of cards. if you miss one aspect in the Planning the whole Planning will be falling like an house of cards..
if they made this mistake it will be not their first time, they are making mistakes from 1990's.

Their Planning started falling after 5 years and interesting thing is that when they see their Planning is falling and suddenly Allah SWT has sent an opportunity at their Doors to avail it. But PAF guys refuses that opportunity to give an impression that their planning was right..

in 1983 PAF made plan to go with F-16 and than sanction hit 1990, after a year or two they get opportunity that France and Russia was willing to sell anything for money put PAF reject them..

in 2004 PAF made plan to stick with F-16 and their Planning starting falling in 2010-11 and after 5 years they once again get an opportunity that Russia need money badly and Britain, Italy are having bad times and BAE's production facility is going to be closed temporary in 2018 because no orders for EFT.

I hope PAF should not miss this opportunity..

 

[ziaulislam]

Strategic Planning is like a house of cards. if you miss one aspect in the Planning the whole Planning will be falling like an house of cards..
if they made this mistake it will be not their first time, they are making mistakes from 1990's.

Their Planning started falling after 5 years and interesting thing is that when they see their Planning is falling and suddenly Allah SWT has sent an opportunity at their Doors to avail it. But PAF guys refuses that opportunity to give an impression that their planning was right..

in 1983 PAF made plan to go with F-16 and than sanction hit 1990, after a year or two they get opportunity that France and Russia was willing to sell anything for money put PAF reject them..

in 2004 PAF made plan to stick with F-16 and their Planning starting falling in 2010-11 and after 5 years they once again get an opportunity that Russia need money badly and Britain, Italy are having bad times and BAE's production facility is going to be closed temporary in 2018 because no orders for EFT.

I hope PAF should not miss this opportunity..

i agree it was mistake it 80s and 90s but to go with f-16s in 2004-05 later was not a mistake as you got not only full upgrade of all previous f-16s (32) but also got 14 f-16s MLU as well as 18 new C/Ds with AIM 120 and all types of guided weapons..this for around 2-2.5 billion dollars only (a total deal of around 3 billion with 600 million of FMF)

remember as much we all think how well we can do, the fact is countries with our size of economy cant even maintain an air force with our size let alone procure it, original deal to procure more used f-16s instead of new f-16s C/D is debatable but we need a deep strike version of f-16 and C/D with extra fuel and powerful engine was the only option

now with 2 billion dollars at best you could have just 6-8 euro fighters or 18 su-35, or 5-6 mirages/rafales and i am not talking about the other 1 billion you will need for weapons and trainings, if yo uadd that with 3 billion you can only get either a gripen or mig that too in less than a single squardon

and whats the availability rate of su 35 and cost of operation..

 

[New World]

i agree it was mistake it 80s and 90s but to go with f-16s in 2004-05 later was not a mistake as you got not only full upgrade of all previous f-16s (32) but also got 14 f-16s MLU as well as 18 new C/Ds with AIM 120 and all types of guided weapons..this for around 2-2.5 billion dollars only (a total deal of around 3 billion with 600 million of FMF)

remember as much we all think how well we can do, the fact is countries with our size of economy cant even maintain an air force with our size let alone procure it, original deal to procure more used f-16s instead of new f-16s C/D is debatable but we need a deep strike version of f-16 and C/D with extra fuel and powerful engine was the only option

now with 2 billion dollars at best you could have just 6-8 euro fighters or 18 su-35, or 5-6 mirages/rafales and i am not talking about the other 1 billion you will need for weapons and trainings, if yo uadd that with 3 billion you can only get either a gripen or mig that too in less than a single squardon

and whats the availability rate of su 35 and cost of operation..

i'm not saying that going for F-16 in 80's was mistake, the mistake was that then sanction were placed they didn't acquire another jet to accommodate F-16 and ease the burden from them...

I hope you have read the thread here in PDF according to OP which was written by AVM Kaisar Tufail in which Kaisar Tufail enlight the role of PAF during Kargil.. According to Kaisar after few week PAF was unable to scramble F-16 everytime to check the violation by IAF. because there were not enough spares available for F-16. and interception was only done by the F-7s and there was not any other jet available to do interception(Mirage 3/5 and A-5 were for ground attacks)..

By knowing the situation during Kargil, it was necessary for PAF to and induct another fighter jet beside F-16 during 2004-5...
$5-6 billion were spent for acquisition of 18 F-18 and the upgrades for the rest 32..
if PAF has gone for rafale at that time price of rafale was around $100-140 million with support. and France was also ready to invest billion of Dollars in Pakistan as offset and major companies of France were also ready to shift their production facilities in Pakistan. Renault was one of them.

as for 32 old F-16 they were to be upgraded by Turkey as are now. and there will be not any excessive pressure from US to blackmail Armed forces about suspension and delay tactics of hardware and software..

 

[ziaulislam]

i'm not saying that going for F-16 in 80's was mistake, the mistake was that then sanction were placed they didn't acquire another jet to accommodate F-16 and ease the burden from them...

I hope you have read the thread here in PDF according to OP which was written by AVM Kaisar Tufail in which Kaisar Tufail enlight the role of PAF during Kargil.. According to Kaisar after few week PAF was unable to scramble F-16 everytime to check the violation by IAF. because there were not enough spares available for F-16. and interception was only done by the F-7s and there was not any other jet available to do interception(Mirage 3/5 and A-5 were for ground attacks)..

By knowing the situation during Kargil, it was necessary for PAF to and induct another fighter jet beside F-16 during 2004-5...
$5-6 billion were spent for acquisition of 18 F-18 and the upgrades for the rest 32..
if PAF has gone for rafale at that time price of rafale was around $100-140 million with support. and France was also ready to invest billion of Dollars in Pakistan as offset and major companies of France were also ready to shift their production facilities in Pakistan. Renault was one of them.

as for 32 old F-16 they were to be upgraded by Turkey as are now. and there will be not any excessive pressure from US to blackmail Armed forces about suspension and delay tactics of hardware and software..

back in 90s your GDP was 60 billion dollars and it was nt easy to get the money to acquire any jets especially when you had poor politcal govt and were under IMF program

turkey cannot upgrade your fighters without USA approval period...which wouldnt have been possible had you not gone for further fighters

i dont expect USA sanctions on pakistan now unless we end up doign something bizzare

 

[New World]

back in 90s your GDP was 60 billion dollars and it was nt easy to get the money to acquire any jets especially when you had poor politcal govt and were under IMF program

turkey cannot upgrade your fighters without USA approval period...which wouldnt have been possible had you not gone for further fighters

i dont expect USA sanctions on pakistan now unless we end up doign something bizzare

money for 40 M2k-5 were allocated in benazir govt. in 90's and deal was almost finished but at the end PAF withdraw from getting these jets.. sir @MastanKhan can tell you further on that..

back in 2004-5 USA was ready to upgrade old F-16 without getting new F-16..

when you are at war and you have only one weapon to fight and with few bullets.. aftar the war would you continue with that weapon by knowing that EM(entity menufacturer) will halt it's supply to you at any time given the past experience??

 

[ziaulislam]

money for 40 M2k-5 were allocated in benazir govt. in 90's and deal was almost finished but at the end PAF withdraw from getting these jets.. sir @MastanKhan can tell you further on that..

back in 2004-5 USA was ready to upgrade old F-16 without getting new F-16..

when you are at war and you have only one weapon to fight and with few bullets.. aftar the war would you continue with that weapon by knowing that EM(entity menufacturer) will halt it's supply to you at any time given the past experience??

and in 2003-05 to make those 40 mirages relevant you would have atleast needed another 2 billion dollars upgrade..which would have not been possible as french would have denied you an upgrade given indian rafale tender

problem was french are too notorious for future upgrades..you do know the story why PAF withdrew from those aircarfts than...

 

[New World]

and in 2003-05 to make those 40 mirages relevant you would have atleast needed another 2 billion dollars upgrade..which would have not been possible as french would have denied you an upgrade given indian rafale tender

money for 40 M2k were allocated in mid 90's not in 2004-5..
procurement in 2004-5 was another procurement.

problem was french are too notorious for future upgrades..you do know the story why PAF withdrew from those aircarfts than...

sir, @MastanKhan will tell you better why PAF withdraw from M2k procurement..

 

[Bharat Muslim]

AIR CHIEF MEETS RUSSIAN COUNTERPART IN MOSCOW
Matters related to military exercises, bilateral professional cooperation discussed.

03:50 PM, 23 Jul, 2016



Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman held a meeting with Russian Air Commander-in-Chief Colonel General Viktor Bondarev in Moscow on Saturday.

The two Air Chiefs discussed matters relating to military exercises as well as cooperation on professional matters.

Link please. I didn't find any.

 

[wiseone2]

money for 40 M2k-5 were allocated in benazir govt. in 90's and deal was almost finished but at the end PAF withdraw from getting these jets.. sir @MastanKhan can tell you further on that..

back in 2004-5 USA was ready to upgrade old F-16 without getting new F-16..

when you are at war and you have only one weapon to fight and with few bullets.. aftar the war would you continue with that weapon by knowing that EM(entity menufacturer) will halt it's supply to you at any time given the past experience??

Unless you are planning war with India why even bother buying the Mirage-2000 ?

 

[araz]

$5-6 billion were spent for acquisition of 18 F-18 and the upgrades for the rest 32..
if PAF has gone for rafale at that time price of rafale was around $100-140 million with support. and France was also ready to invest billion of Dollars in Pakistan as offset and major companies of France were also ready to shift their production facilities in Pakistan. Renault was one of them.
.

A quick correction. The deal is for 3.2 Billion not 5 to 6 Billion. It included all the armaments that you acquired and the 60 upgrade kits which you havew asked for. I think the Bl52s were sort of enforced in reutrn for upgrade to the older models. PAF has always been wary of sanctions and US infidelity but our choices remain limited.
We wanted the M2Ks in 2002-4. We were instead offered the Rafale. With limited funds the choice is always the bigger bang for the buck. So if you had gone for the rafale , you would not have had the !6s as well. So 40 Rafales as against 70 odd platforms which are upgraded with the latest radar and goodies. I think if possible it would have been a good idea to go for both but could we have afforded it and what would it have done to our own indegenous programme? I dont know what the thinking was so difficult to say.
I dont agree with the logic of stumping India as they would just have gone on and bought another platform.So what good it would have done to us would be a debatable issue.
A

 

[New World]

Unless you are planning war with India why even bother buying the Mirage-2000 ?

and Indian purchased Su-30MKI just for the FUN? right.

A quick correction. The deal is for 3.2 Billion not 5 to 6 Billion. It included all the armaments that you acquired and the 60 upgrade kits which you havew asked for. I think the Bl52s were sort of enforced in reutrn for upgrade to the older models. PAF has always been wary of sanctions and US infidelity but our choices remain limited.
We wanted the M2Ks in 2002-4. We were instead offered the Rafale. With limited funds the choice is always the bigger bang for the buck. So if you had gone for the rafale , you would not have had the !6s as well. So 40 Rafales as against 70 odd platforms which are upgraded with the latest radar and goodies. I think if possible it would have been a good idea to go for both but could we have afforded it and what would it have done to our own indegenous programme? I dont know what the thinking was so difficult to say.
I dont agree with the logic of stumping India as they would just have gone on and bought another platform.So what good it would have done to us would be a debatable issue.
A

sir, thanks for the correction.
as you said that PAF was very of US sanction and PAF was offered rafale instead of M2K.
two question for you sir.
PAF was ready to invest for the infrastructure of M2K but not for the rafale. why?
why PAF hadn't bought rafale in small no. like 18,24 or 30 just for the start to operate with rafale along with blk52?

 

[Viper0011.]

PAF was ready to invest for the infrastructure of M2K but not for the rafale. why?
why PAF hadn't bought rafale in small no. like 18,24 or 30 just for the start to operate with rafale along with blk52?

This was seriously bad planning on PAF's part. Having access to Rafale tech back then, would've allowed you guys to also get M2K type of tech for the JFT. Or, learn from the Rafale and build similar capability for the JFT. That mistake of not taking advantage of either (M2K-5 or Rafale) has cost the PAF over 12 years of damage. Not to mention the 90's!! So that's like 2 decades lost in my opinion.

@MastanKhan : I am sure you'd like to chime in here too

 

[wiseone2]

and Indian purchased Su-30MKI just for the FUN? right.


sir, thanks for the correction.
as you said that PAF was very of US sanction and PAF was offered rafale instead of M2K.
two question for you sir.
PAF was ready to invest for the infrastructure of M2K but not for the rafale. why?
why PAF hadn't bought rafale in small no. like 18,24 or 30 just for the start to operate with rafale along with blk52?

Outside of Su-30 MKI what aircraft does the IAF have in large numbers ? The Su-30 MKI is to deter China. Unlike Pakistan India likes not to use nukes as a first strike weapon

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Always great to discuss matters of peace and cooperation for promotion of peace