PAC And China,s JXX/J14 Project

[baba firangi]

If you read the posts above yours, you will get the answer that how will we afford it and how have we been affording in the past and present.

Not at all.. The only logic being put forward in favour of pakistan recieving J-XX is

1) Pakistan is an alley and thus has received weapons from china in the past. And it will be the same this time also..

Well.. There is this flaw.. J-XX will be something that in military parlance is called TOP-OF-THE-LINE.. And it will be an Elite technology.. Very Closely guarded and highly off limits to anybody but the Chinese for quite some time to come.. The same way F-22, will not be given away to even the closest of American alley for the foreseeable future.. At the max, a pared down virsion may be offered.. Then that too wont be anytime soon..

2) China will make it affordable for pakistan to procure like it has done before..

Its a billion dollar game.. With billions of dollars of investment and man-hours put into this bird, china will not go on a charity spree with this thing.. It will first build it exclusively for its own military first.. And as and when it is made available to market, it will not come cheap.. Neither for pakistan.. Especially when pakistan is not in any way a partner in this project..

Whatever makes you happy is acceptable to us.

So enjoy and keep dreaming

PLEASE TAIMI Sir.. NO NEED TO WISH EACH AND EVERY INDIAN POSTER A SWEET DREAM.. Our dream become sweet whenever we think of a beautiful and prosperous Pakistan.. An ARMED-TO-THE-TEETH Pakistan doesnot form a part of our beautiful picture.. We are not any different people than you..

 

[Adios Amigo]

Thanks for the Answer sir, Satisfactory answer..... But U still havent answered my Important question, Let me put it in this way...

Every Developing country wants to be self sufficient and That too When it comes to defense, So Will pakistan be able to get the TOT from the chinese by just ordering 50-60 JXX? It would not even yield them the Invested Cost in the program.... Well,This is a serious issue to Look into....

sometimes you guys go for over killing

First, some members form Indian side believed that there is no JXX program

Then they got assured some how that it might exist in reality but it is impossible for china to develop it before 2027

then they tossed in the idea that a fifth generation fighter needs a very high tech engine and very advance set of avionics etc, which china might not be able to come up with. Some how even that was
explained to them with proofs on hand., and some manged to agree with that.

Then they tossed in the idea, that in any case china will be fulfilling its own needs first and might offer Pakistan, after decades, which might not prove as useful to us at that time. even this was proved wrong and every thing was explained with examples and past history.

Then they came up with logic that a fifth generation fighter costs a lot , and Pakistan cannot afford it. hell that was even proven wrong, and methods of acquiring Arms from china was explained by respecteble members from this side.


Now as a last resort you have pitched in the idea, that if it is not coming with TOT, will be worthless. well i don't want to answer this stupid inquiry, but will answer you that, to bring down your fever. First of all you need to check, if there was TOT involved in Jf-17 project??? If yes then to what extent?? After that you need to check if J-10B, the most advanced fighter china has produced up till now, is it coming with TOT??? If yes then what is the logic of giving TOT only for 36 damn jets?? BTW, Most of the Indian members called china crazy for doing this thing, and definitely it would look crazy to the world from a common business perspective?? but is china doing just business with Pakistan or is there something more to it???Lastly do we really need any TOT for a fifth generation fighter at this moment?? If yes, then are there any hurdles in getting them??? If no, why is the big fuss about it?? and to add one thing more are we in position to absorb all the tot, when our hands are already filled in with projects, such as Jf-17 and FC-20??


@ Taimi khan

Brother some time you really amaze me, why do you bother to answer every Tom,Dick and Harry , for their stupid questions, why not ignore them, instead of wasting your own energies







Adios

 

[LCA Tejas]

Now as a last resort you have pitched in the idea, that if it is not coming with TOT, will be worthless. well i don't want to answer this stupid inquiry, but will answer you that, to bring down your fever. First of all you need to check, if there was TOT involved in Jf-17 project??? If yes then to what extent?? After that you need to check if J-10B, the most advanced fighter china has produced up till now, is it coming with TOT??? If yes then what is the logic of giving TOT only for 36 damn jets?? BTW, Most of the Indian members called china crazy for doing this thing, and definitely it would look crazy to the world from a common business perspective?? but is china doing just business with Pakistan or is there something more to it???Lastly do we really need any TOT for a fifth generation fighter at this moment?? If yes, then are there any hurdles in getting them??? If no, why is the big fuss about it?? and to add one thing more are we in position to absorb all the tot, when our hands are already filled in with projects, such as Jf-17 and FC-20??


@ Taimi khan

Brother some time you really amaze me, why do you bother to answer every Tom,Dick and Harry , for their stupid questions, why not ignore them, instead of wasting your own energies







Adios

Brother You really amazed me. A TOT in the case of JF-17 is logical because pakistan had a hand in its development, But What Logic does it make in a TOT of JXX to pakistan of which it has not contributed a penny ??

. And When You have nothing credible Enough to sustain You surely can rely upon Tom,Dick and Harry concept of yours, trust me it really works...

 

[Adios Amigo]

Brother You really amazed me. A TOT in the case of JF-17 is logical because pakistan had a hand in its development, But What Logic does it make in a TOT of JXX to pakistan of which it has not contributed a penny ??

You are stretching the discussion beyond its limits. You didn't understand a bit of my post and that's why you came up with this lousy argument. Please read again my previous post, which has an ample answer to this query of yours.

. And When You have nothing credible Enough to sustain You surely can rely upon Tom,Dick and Harry concept of yours, trust me it really works...

First of all the statement about TOM, DICK AND HARRY, was a side note for Taimi khan and not for you, so you placed yourself in the wrong spot or else i am wrong.

secondly I don't need to provide any credible sources to sustain, cause i am not claiming something. Its you guys coming with stupid speculations, which forces us to prove you wrong. And for that I have provided ample credible sources and examples, but alas you cannot accept the truth. That's your problem not ours.

have a nice day





adios

 

[TaimiKhan]

Thanks for the Answer sir, Satisfactory answer..... But U still havent answered my Important question, Let me put it in this way...

Every Developing country wants to be self sufficient and That too When it comes to defense, So Will pakistan be able to get the TOT from the chinese by just ordering 50-60 JXX? It would not even yield them the Invested Cost in the program.... Well,This is a serious issue to Look into....

With current base of technological infrastructure in Pakistan, ToT is a big NO and in foreseeable future also a NO. Plus, we won't have any use with ToT of such plane. ToT is gotten if there are plans for exporting it too, like in the case of JF-17. It has a bright future, countries already showing interest and willing to order. So in such case, we got the production facilities, some level of ToPT, some external parts, as this plane is for export too, so a feasible investment too. But in case of J-10s or Stealth, big NO.

Yeah in FC-20s or Stealth, just few of the non complicated parts manufacturing can be a possibility, if Chinese feel the pressure of producing more and have less production capacity, so outsourcing some parts can be a possibility, but not entire jets. Not feasible for us, or even may be the Chinese won't like the highly classified program being given to outsiders, even if its Pakistan.

But do remember, PAC has built a huge production facility infrastructure at Kamra, said to be 3rd largest in Europe, and they are looking at exports too.

So we would only be happy with few Sqds, to keep a check on the IAF.

Plus, JF-17 has itself a bright future, PAC & PAF would be very much busy in upgrading this baby.

 

[LCA Tejas]

You are stretching the discussion beyond its limits. You didn't understand a bit of my post and that's why you came up with this lousy argument. Please read again my previous post, which has an ample answer to this query of yours.

But I am Not diverting this thread to any other topic,Iam well On topic, as I just wanted to know a simple answer,Like how will China TOT to Pakistan a Sophestcated and Elite technology like stealth in which pakistan has no hand, A multi Billion project cannot be given like charity... Nobody seems to answer me that, but is speculating stuffs from the past history.... It dosent work the way You think buddy

First of all the statement about TOM, DICK AND HARRY, was a side note for Taimi khan and not for you, so you placed yourself in the wrong spot or else i am wrong.

secondly I don't need to provide any credible sources to sustain, cause i am not claiming something. Its you guys coming with stupid speculations, which forces us to prove you wrong. And for that I have provided ample credible sources and examples, but alas you cannot accept the truth. That's your problem not ours.

have a nice day





adios

Ofcourse You are claiming JXX/J14 to be in your arsenal.... Its not we coming out with speculations, When you claim that, You must also proove it... But if you dont want to,So be It... I did not compel anyone to... Just asked for proof...

 

[LCA Tejas]

With current base of technological infrastructure in Pakistan, ToT is a big NO and in foreseeable future also a NO. Plus, we won't have any use with ToT of such plane. ToT is gotten if there are plans for exporting it too, like in the case of JF-17. It has a bright future, countries already showing interest and willing to order. So in such case, we got the production facilities, some level of ToPT, some external parts, as this plane is for export too, so a feasible investment too. But in case of J-10s or Stealth, big NO.

Yeah in FC-20s or Stealth, just few of the non complicated parts manufacturing can be a possibility, if Chinese feel the pressure of producing more and have less production capacity, so outsourcing some parts can be a possibility, but not entire jets. Not feasible for us, or even may be the Chinese won't like the highly classified program being given to outsiders, even if its Pakistan.

But do remember, PAC has built a huge production facility infrastructure at Kamra, said to be 3rd largest in Europe, and they are looking at exports too.

So we would only be happy with few Sqds, to keep a check on the IAF.

Plus, JF-17 has itself a bright future, PAC & PAF would be very much busy in upgrading this baby.

Hmnnnnn Agreed to You sir.... Is pakistan having any New plans of making Indeginious aircrafts from the experiance it gained fromJF-17?

 

[albwd]

sometimes you guys go for over killing

First, some members form Indian side believed that there is no JXX program

Then they got assured some how that it might exist in reality but it is impossible for china to develop it before 2027

then they tossed in the idea that a fifth generation fighter needs a very high tech engine and very advance set of avionics etc, which china might not be able to come up with. Some how even that was
explained to them with proofs on hand., and some manged to agree with that.

Then they tossed in the idea, that in any case china will be fulfilling its own needs first and might offer Pakistan, after decades, which might not prove as useful to us at that time. even this was proved wrong and every thing was explained with examples and past history.

Then they came up with logic that a fifth generation fighter costs a lot , and Pakistan cannot afford it. hell that was even proven wrong, and methods of acquiring Arms from china was explained by respecteble members from this side.


Now as a last resort you have pitched in the idea, that if it is not coming with TOT, will be worthless. well i don't want to answer this stupid inquiry, but will answer you that, to bring down your fever. First of all you need to check, if there was TOT involved in Jf-17 project??? If yes then to what extent?? After that you need to check if J-10B, the most advanced fighter china has produced up till now, is it coming with TOT??? If yes then what is the logic of giving TOT only for 36 damn jets?? BTW, Most of the Indian members called china crazy for doing this thing, and definitely it would look crazy to the world from a common business perspective?? but is china doing just business with Pakistan or is there something more to it???Lastly do we really need any TOT for a fifth generation fighter at this moment?? If yes, then are there any hurdles in getting them??? If no, why is the big fuss about it?? and to add one thing more are we in position to absorb all the tot, when our hands are already filled in with projects, such as Jf-17 and FC-20??


@ Taimi khan

Brother some time you really amaze me, why do you bother to answer every Tom,Dick and Harry , for their stupid questions, why not ignore them, instead of wasting your own energies







Adios

If I were an Indian, I would start to listen to this amigo from now on.

 

[LCA Tejas]

If I were an Indian, I would start to listen to this amigo from now on.

Thats why You are not an Indian

 

[Adios Amigo]

But I am Not diverting this thread to any other topic,Iam well On topic, as I just wanted to know a simple answer,Like how will China TOT to Pakistan a Sophestcated and Elite technology like stealth in which pakistan has no hand, A multi Billion project cannot be given like charity... Nobody seems to answer me that, but is speculating stuffs from the past history.... It dosent work the way You think buddy

you are simply endorsing my statement of stretching the discussion beyond its limits. Since you do not have the ability to comprehend my posts, so let me break it down for you.

First of all we are not interested in a TOT for JXX at this moment of time.
Secondly there would be not much of a problem for our chinese friends for TOT, if such we require it. The recent past is a living proof of it. There are ample sources claiming TOT for J-10B, the most advance fighter china has produced, and Pakistan has not spent a single penny in that project, and that too for only 36 dam fighters. This shows the kind of relationships and the level of trust Pakistan and China enjoys. Its not only business b/w us but more to it. And to world that may seem crazy.

Lastly I personally don't feel,that at this moment we can absorb a tot for next generation fighter. We fully understand our situation and capabilities and that's why we run successful projects in contrast to India. We simply don't like to bite more then we can chew.

Also check out who started this whole TOT crap, was it me or my countrymen, was it some buddy from your side???

Ofcourse You are claiming JXX/J14 to be in your arsenal.... Its not we coming out with speculations, When you claim that, You must also proove it... But if you dont want to,So be It... I did not compel anyone to... Just asked for proof...

Well if we are claiming something wrong, you prove us wrong, provide some credible source, or even if that is not possible come up with at least the past trends that proves us wrong.

Secondly this crap was started by an Indian member, go and visit the first post and then find out who is the thread starter.



This is exactly why I am against these kinds of threads, Only damn speculations.








adios

 

[baba firangi]

secondly I don't need to provide any credible sources to sustain, cause i am not claiming something. Its you guys coming with stupid speculations, which forces us to prove you wrong. And for that I have provided ample credible sources and examples, but alas you cannot accept the truth. That's your problem not ours.

have a nice day





adios

Great... Lets see wat we got here ..

_ China is working on its 5th gen project called J-XX.

AYE.. Coz it has the resources and being a great power, the aspirations to build one.. You provided us wid pics of all the new gizmos that the PLAAF would be integrating into their BIG BIRD.. Very convincing.. There is a J-XX for sure..

_ China will be putting up this bird anytime soon..

Maybe.. Nobody here knows anything about the project except that a chinese official had claimed that it will be testing them very soon.. Word taken.. Very well.. They are good at putting up surprises..

_ PAF will be getting these as soon as they are available to PLAAF, to make up 3-4 of its squadrons..

Now where does that come from?
Any official or credible sources?.. Any credible indication from either of the parties involved.. Or is it just Sino-Pak Friendship you are counting upon.. That would be counting chickens before they hatch..
Cause like i had posted before, apprehensions arise because J-XX will be something that in military parlance is called TOP-OF-THE-LINE.. And it will be an Elite technology.. Very Closely guarded and highly off limits to anybody but the Chinese, for quite some time to come.. The same way F-22, will not be given away to even the closest of American alley for the foreseeable future.. At the max, a pared down version may be offered.. Then that too wont be anytime soon.. And offcorz not at a heavily subsidized cost that my friends hare are claiming to..

Feel free to argue..

 

[TaimiKhan]

Hmnnnnn Agreed to You sir.... Is pakistan having any New plans of making Indeginious aircrafts from the experiance it gained fromJF-17?

JF-17 has itself a lot of room for further improvement and evolution.

Plus, we have taken just first step, lot of other steps still to go, to have the capability to design and develop own indigenous aircraft.

Let JF-17 become mature enough, then will think forward.

 

[albwd]

Great... Lets see wat we got here ..

_ China is working on its 5th gen project called J-XX.

AYE.. Coz it has the resources and being a great power, the aspirations to build one.. You provided us wid pics of all the new gizmos that the PLAAF would be integrating into their BIG BIRD.. Very convincing.. There is a J-XX for sure..

_ China will be putting up this bird anytime soon..

Maybe.. Nobody here knows anything about the project except that a chinese official had claimed that it will be testing them very soon.. Word taken.. Very well.. They are good at putting up surprises..

_ PAF will be getting these as soon as they are available to PLAAF, to make up 3-4 of its squadrons..

Now where does that come from?
Any official or credible sources?.. Any credible indication from either of the parties involved.. Or is it just Sino-Pak Friendship you are counting upon.. That would be counting chickens before they hatch..
Cause like i had posted before, apprehensions arise because J-XX will be something that in military parlance is called TOP-OF-THE-LINE.. And it will be an Elite technology.. Very Closely guarded and highly off limits to anybody but the Chinese, for quite some time to come.. The same way F-22, will not be given away to even the closest of American alley for the foreseeable future.. At the max, a pared down version may be offered.. Then that too wont be anytime soon.. And offcorz not at a heavily subsidized cost that my friends hare are claiming to..

Feel free to argue..

Fine. I am not sure about amigo, but I am quite convinced now: The concept of peaceful resistence did come out of India.

 

[LCA Tejas]

you are simply endorsing my statement of stretching the discussion beyond its limits. Since you do not have the ability to comprehend my posts, so let me break it down for you.

First of all we are not interested in a TOT for JXX at this moment of time.
Secondly there would be not much of a problem our chines for TOT, if such we require it. The recent past is a living proof of it. There are ample sources claiming TOT for J-10B, the most advance fighter china has produced, and Pakistan has not spent a single penny in that project, and that too for only 36 dam fighters. This shows the kind of relationships and the level of trust Pakistan and China enjoys. Its not only business b/w us but more to it. And to world that may seem crazy.

Lastly I personally don't feel,that at this moment we can absorb a tot for next generation fighter. We fully understand our situation and capabilities and that's we run successful projects in contrast to India. We simply don't like to bite more then we can chew.

Also check out who started this whole TOT crap, was it me or my countrymen, was it some buddy from your side???




Well if are claiming something, you prove us, provide some credible source, or even if that is not possible come up with at least the past trends that proves us wrong.

Secondly this crap was started by an Indian member, go and visit the first post and then find out who is the thread starter.



This is exactly why I am against these kinds of threads, Only damn speculations.








adios

You supported these speculations dint you, and many even said that JXX can be bought with TOT with previous history... Sorry my answer to your lengthy post was short... And J-10 might be the best of china, it has nothing Special, Most of the countries have the technology to build a fighter jet, but a stealth fighter is completely Different, If they have had wanted you, they would have asked you to have a joint venture just like in JF-17...

 

[baba firangi]

Well if are claiming something, you prove us, provide some credible source, or even if that is not possible come up with at least the past trends that proves us wrong.





adios

Past Trends?
The Chinese haven't provided you with their frontline Type 99 tanks yet..
Now since india has officially stated it intends to be building the next gen tanks with russians, please don't say that you wouldn't like to have type 99s in your inventory.. And for the Al-Khalid/MBT 2000, they are only modified version of Type 8x tanks, which even the Chinese aren't inducting any more.. And i don't see Nuclear submarines coming from China either.. Rings any bell?

Talk about the past trends.. And it only shows that Chinese have not always made available to you their TOP-OF-THE-LINE weapons system..
Thus your argument that J-XX will be made available to you as soon as its inducted into the PLAAF falls flat on its face in the context of PAST TRENDS argument too..
the only thing certain is that nothing is certain about the future of J-XX in the PAF right now.. It may be.. It maybe not..

As for the rest.. J-XX is a reality.. We can only afford to ignore at our own risk