PA TANKS comparison with contempory tanks

[Keshav Murali]

@Dazzler, nice work. You kicked @AUSTERLITZ 's *** pretty bad. I'm impressed.

Let's make a few things clear here.

According to reliable BR sources and some link I forgot, T-90S (Yes, the export version) stripped of ERA stood impact from KEW-A2 which has certified penetration of 660 mm at 2 km.

So, average penetration is bound to be 680 mm ± 20 mm at 2 km. Impressive protection.

But we can't verify such claims for the hull. It would never have such space for composite armour.

Best Indian round for Arjun: Unknown - That's how I'd describe it. The in-service designation-less round is disappointing, with certified penetration in the 400-420 mm range somewhere and average penetration as 460 mm at 2 km. We saw a new round (T-1A) at Defence Expo 2012, that was not sectioned. So it might be longer.

Best Indian 125 mm round Israeli rounds - two different ones, both better than Mango, with average penetration between 550-580 mm and certified penetration being 500 mm at 2 km. The Indian rounds perform similar to the Arjun's rounds.

Bear in mind that Rosoboronexport has been advertising 3BM44M as "New High Performance APFSDS" with no designation for quite some time according to Vasily Fofanov. It is always an export option.

Don't forget that when the development of their best ends, Russians put up their second best to sale, and the second best in this case would be 3BM44M. So Russians have finished, or are going to finish the development of 3BM48 "Svinets-2" or whatever the hell it is.

Please carry on.

 

[Keshav Murali]

Sure... with israelis out... and a disaster like AMK ... which cost you 7 bin rps in the past... im sure it is...

I just need to mention that the Ukrainians and the Polish are in. Ukraine was positively offering 3BM42 variants and Poland was offering Pronit and its indigenous 125 mm rounds which are as powerful as Type-IIM.

Heady stuff.

Then there is the mysterious 125 mm round "Vityaz" with "750 mm" penetration.

*Yawns*

People. They never cease to amaze.

T-90A vladmir with SHTORA, show me any T-90S with this system

Russlanders don't export Shtora, since it is their very best APS for the moment.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Again something @Dazzler pointed out.. export version of T-90A = T-90S.

Only first batch order was for 310 T-90S which was basic T-90A welded,the one tested in 1999 minus shtora.All subsequent orders were for T-90M with modified armour,gun and electronics etc.If u go to any source giving variants of t-90 you will find T-90S and T-90M or T-90S bhisma as indian later variants are called to be different t-90 variants.


India didnt order t-90m... only t-90s... probably "modified" because of the issues it faced in dessert conditions...

''In October 2006 MOD ordered additional 330 improved T-90M Bhishma developed by HVF with assistance from Uralvagonavod, Thales which supplied its Catherine-FC thermal sights and other companies.

A follow-up order for 347 T-90Ms was placed in December 2007. ''
Your confusion may arise from the fact that in IA both t-90S and t-90M are called bhisma and are even used interchangeably.Only original 310 batch is base t-90S level.
Modifications on bhisma include to turret armour composites,fire control system,french electronics,2A46-M-5 new rapira gun from the older 2A46M and air conditioning for desert.

Dazzler has pretty much summed up everything..

I disagree,he posted a diagram of t-72B turret from 1980s level armour and u try to pass that off as current t-90 armour level?LOL.

Been hearing tht since 2009... and the sources are blogs... yet after 4 years... nothing...

True.There has been no concrete sources or updates on this,just that LEDS-150 was selected.

Not really... the basic t-90 n t-80 used the same gun,armour? etc... the major issue was the gas turbine engine... which wasnt fuel efficient or reliable... again you might wanna check out T-80UD specs..

Yes u are in a way right,engine was main problem.But t-90 proved its protection ability in trials in 1999.Just like t-80UD is upgarded from t-80u ,t-90 is also not the same as it was in 1999.

He provided you sources... so did i... heck you wont even see Naiza 1 on POF website..

The discussion was never on naiza1.Everyone knows its operational.He claimed that naiza 2 was operational on PA tanks and IA had nothing comparable.I contended that its under development and possibly for ak-2,in which case we too have higher penetration rounds under development.So i asked him to show me naiza 2 with a statement from POF stating its penetration like naiza 1 pic.

Thts a new tungston round... not naiza II (which by the way is in service) ........and hope you know the older round had a penetration power of 550mm... and this one is 30+% improved... hence much more penetration power... as for short stubby etc... dazzler again answered you about it..

Tungsten round 30% improved penetration power over DU round without any increase in length?I am sry if i don't take u at ur word,perhaps if the rounds penetration was stated like that of common operational rounds are from POF?


Sure... with israelis out... and a disaster like AMK ... which cost you 7 bin rps in the past... im sure it is...

What you are sure of doesn't matter,we have got the tech from the israelis and are now modifying it ourselves with new rounds under development.As for disaster ,sure it happened due to administrative inefficiency..we have learned from it.won't happen again.Its not as if PA doesn't suffer from disasters,a rag tag outfit like TTP is running rings around it these days.Destroying ultra sensitive aircraft whenever they wish,freeing prisoners for fun ,killing civilians at will.We have all have our little failings from time to time.

I just need to mention that the Ukrainians and the Polish are in. Ukraine was positively offering 3BM42 variants and Poland was offering Pronit and its indigenous 125 mm rounds which are as powerful as Type-IIM.

Heady stuff.

Then there is the mysterious 125 mm round "Vityaz" with "750 mm" penetration.

*Yawns*

People. They never cease to amaze.



Russlanders don't export Shtora, since it is their very best APS for the moment.

Aren't polish and ukrainians in for new ammo tender?
Also what is the best russian APS shtora or arena?I thought drozd-2 and arena were pretty equal and quite advanced?Some reports say arena was selected even for south korean k2 black panther?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

According to reliable BR sources and some link I forgot, T-90S (Yes, the export version) stripped of ERA stood impact from KEW-A2 which has certified penetration of 660 mm at 2 km.

So, average penetration is bound to be 680 mm ± 20 mm at 2 km. Impressive protection.

But we can't verify such claims for the hull. It would never have such space for composite armour.

If ERA is added to that protection would be around 900 mm?No PA/PLA round would be able to penetrate it frontally.Of course hull would have lesser,but thats true for all tanks including its adversaries.
Also do you not agree that chinese design philosophy tanks have more flaws and weakspots due to turret geometry than russian ones?

 

[Manticore]

Its not as if PA doesn't suffer from disasters,a rag tag outfit like TTP is running rings around it these days.Destroying ultra sensitive aircraft whenever they wish,freeing prisoners for fun ,killing civilians at will.We have all have our little failings from time to time.

Please keep these discussions out of this thread

 

[Dazzler]

Not t-90 vladimir u fool,in 1999 vladimir didn't exist.Its basic welded turret t-90a with shtora.In case u didn't know shtora can be fitted with any t-90 model,doesn't make that model a vladimir.
Vladimir came into being in 2009.This is ur knowledge on t-90.And ur asking me to look up t-90 history?

T-90 history is not a single one was lost in second chechnya ,survived seven rpg hits without any effect on one occasion.Unlike another certain russian tank.



In testing even we have new round ,610mm one 125 mm.And 650-680 mm under development for arjun mk2.For standard operational rounds both sides have about 500-550 mm penetration rounds.

You are such a .... ah never mind

The verison with welded turret IS the Vladimir code named T-90A, the one that came in 2009 is T-90MS TAGIL, NOT Vladimir !! I think you have reading problems :O

Tagil is export variant, vladimir is never exported and stands exclusively as a Russian mbt till 2012 when they refused to induct further T-90 anymore

Shtora can be fitted to any variant agreed BUT it is not fitted on yours is it? Any pic or source of improved 120 mm Arjun round or is it also in thin air only??

No where did i claim your improved APFSDS is not in development, the thing is, till its developed and INDUCTED in service, situation remains bleek for IA mbt fleet. And i have not even begun to count Ajeya problems

 

[Dazzler]

@Dazzler, nice work. You kicked @AUSTERLITZ 's *** pretty bad. I'm impressed.

Let's make a few things clear here.

According to reliable BR sources and some link I forgot, T-90S (Yes, the export version) stripped of ERA stood impact from KEW-A2 which has certified penetration of 660 mm at 2 km.

So, average penetration is bound to be 680 mm ± 20 mm at 2 km. Impressive protection.

But we can't verify such claims for the hull. It would never have such space for composite armour.

Best Indian round for Arjun: Unknown - That's how I'd describe it. The in-service designation-less round is disappointing, with certified penetration in the 400-420 mm range somewhere and average penetration as 460 mm at 2 km. We saw a new round (T-1A) at Defence Expo 2012, that was not sectioned. So it might be longer.

Best Indian 125 mm round Israeli rounds - two different ones, both better than Mango, with average penetration between 550-580 mm and certified penetration being 500 mm at 2 km. The Indian rounds perform similar to the Arjun's rounds.

Bear in mind that Rosoboronexport has been advertising 3BM44M as "New High Performance APFSDS" with no designation for quite some time according to Vasily Fofanov. It is always an export option.

Don't forget that when the development of their best ends, Russians put up their second best to sale, and the second best in this case would be 3BM44M. So Russians have finished, or are going to finish the development of 3BM48 "Svinets-2" or whatever the hell it is.

Please carry on.

Thanks @Keshav

You see i never refuted T-90S capabilities yar all i asked was a source or atleast a pic of the turret armour tests but was given nothing just bla bla

3BM-44M Lekalo will be provided yep i saw sources of the deal. average penetration @ 2000 m, 0 deg is 600-650mm, @ 60 deg, its 300 mm.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I just need to mention that the Ukrainians and the Polish are in. Ukraine was positively offering 3BM42 variants and Poland was offering Pronit and its indigenous 125 mm rounds which are as powerful as Type-IIM.

[/QUOTE]


The question remains are they in service ?

Then there is the mysterious 125 mm round "Vityaz" with "750 mm" penetration.

Isnt Vitiaz a gun?

 

[Dazzler]

Vitiaz is new generation 125 mm gun and Baghira is 140 mm, both are in testing phase but have shown impressive values!

Paul Lakowski a Gunner

Heres a quote from another board.


quote:

The new 125mm gun, known as Vitiaz, is 6m long. When firing an APFSDS projectile, the muzzle velocity is 2,030m/s(!). This will penetrate 380mm of steel armour. Doesn't sound impressive, but this is at an angle of 60 degrees! Range at which this is achieved isn't given though.

The other gun is 140mm, known as Bagira, and is 7m(!) long. When firing an APFSDS projectile, the muzzle velocity is 1870m/s. This will penetrate 450mm of armour at a 60 degree angle!
Compare this with the newer Russian 3BM-42 (not the newest M version) APFSDS projectile, which penetrates 230mm at an angle of 60 degrees. As you can see, the 140mm Ukrainian gun easily surpasses the current Russian 125mm gun in performance, and these penetration ratings would place it even quite a bit ahead of the 120mm NATO gun."

Ive been all over the web and still got nothing on this. Can u guys provide more information on these two beauties???

 

[Umair Nawaz]

As usual you are congratulating urself.
I am saying the OFB new round is now developed,ur saying based on old news its blown up.Ur saying niaza 2 is in service,i'm saying far from so ..and that its for al khalid 2..also doubt whether it would fit on existing loader.[probably reason why ak-2 is said to have new loader].None of us can give any solid official statement or pics as sources that depict their penetration.
It becomes ur word vs mine.

As for indian army disadvantage,lol.I just showed to you ur entire tank fleet has poor turret geometry inherited from chinese design.In a tank to tank battle while khalid would match t-90 in mobility and firepower it would be outmatched in armour due to its several weaknesses in this area.



Al khalid turret doesn't have enough space for western bustle type loader and also because we have seen pics of interior of khalid.All t-series and chinese mbts including mbt-2000 which is base of al khalid have carousel autoloader.
You need to find out about ur own tank some more before making premature comments,do u even know what is difference between carousel and bustle loader?

The picture were of Type 59.

@Dazzler is the one with more knowledge on this.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

link is not working.Post the pics and article.And i hope its not mere prototype but standrad new operational version as u say.

it is working with me.

Use proxy if not using and turn it off if u r. Then it will open.

 

[Dazzler]

The picture were of Type 59.

@Dazzler is the one with more knowledge on this.

leave him alone yar he had a tough day

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Vitiaz is new generation 125 mm gun and Baghira is 140 mm, both are in testing phase but have shown impressive values!

Thts what im sayin... unless they want to change the gun barrel of their T-90S( which came out in 1996.... years before T-90A /Vladmir)....

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The question remains are they in service ?




Isnt Vitiaz a gun?[/QUOTE]

Not yet as tender ongoing,that was the question i disagreed on with dazzler on-is naiza 2 fully operational as he claims?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

You are such a .... ah never mind

The verison with welded turret IS the Vladimir code named T-90A, the one that came in 2009 is T-90MS TAGIL, NOT Vladimir !! I think you have reading problems :O

Tagil is export variant, vladimir is never exported and stands exclusively as a Russian mbt till 2012 when they refused to induct further T-90 anymore

Shtora can be fitted to any variant agreed BUT it is not fitted on yours is it? Any pic or source of improved 120 mm Arjun round or is it also in thin air only??

No where did i claim your improved APFSDS is not in development, the thing is, till its developed and INDUCTED in service, situation remains bleek for IA mbt fleet. And i have not even begun to count Ajeya problems

I confused it with the t-90M prototype that was unveiled in around 2009.They refused to induct t-90 as they have moved on to new generation armata which is in different league.
When did i say shtora is fitted on ours?Besides shtora-1 is a soft kill system,and supposedly failed in greek and indian trails.
Thats why we selected LEDS-150.
And this is the point,i never claimed u don't have high penetration rounds in development either-just ur claim that naiza 2 is operational.If its operational accross PA tank fleet,how hard can it be to get a pic.Usually in exhibitions standard ammo is displayed beside tank sometimes.

The picture were of Type 59.

@Dazzler is the one with more knowledge on this.

No type -99.ztz-99,where did u get type-59?