Over 240,000+ Afghan refugees deported from Turkey (as well as Iran and Pakistan)

[LegionnairE]

In the first paragraph, that alone is proposing from a globalized market. Your current defense industry consists of imported materials as Turkey has few natural resources.

High tech industries like you proposed will require even more of that. Yes natural gas can substitute current gas imports.

But what you're proposing is an almost entire economic shift, which I don't see as possible.

Pakistan also had a fairly good defense industry until the 2000 but with the shortage of natural resources and UN restrictions on our weapons because they were ending up with African warlords, it has shrunk.

Most of what you wrote is self-sufficiency. Only thing is the markets for Turkish products and services is mostly abroad.

Turkish companies cannot survive just working in Turkey. They'll be out of business. All what you proposed is

Likewise for raw materials and components to propose high tech industries will need to be brought in from abroad as it is already doing.

For example Pakistan has a huge skill in producing surgical instruments even before the industrial revolution. But to meet global high-end demand, british machinery was needed to mass produce them.

Also if Pakistanis already living there should not work there, then there's no reason why turkish businesses operate in Pakistan.

No Pakistani airline currently flies to Turkey except for a few charter flights. Most Pakistani planes don't use Turkish airspace when flying to Europe.

Lots of Turkish companies have operated in Pakistan including construction business. And construction is a big part of Turkey's economy. Not so much for Pakistan as it has a mostly different economy.

Also if tourism is cut, then it'll be hard to redirect more than 59+ billion elsewhere and Turks working in it by the millions will have a hard time working elsewhere.

As I said time and time again, I'm not against foreign trade.

Construction companies go to Pakistan, build whatever, get paid, and **** off. If they are building things Pakistan can't build on its own, it's benefitial for both sides. Likewise Japanese construction companies build many bridges in Turkey. I was never against that, because it was something we couldn't do on our own.

We couldn't build this:

It bothers me that all the Turkish banks got bought out by foreign companies and it bothers me that we're not self sufficient, we import more than we export. These are problems but solution isn't just stopping all trade and economic cooperation.

frankly, I don't really care about this economic debate.

For me the most important thing is the protection of Turkish demographics and Turkish culture. I don't want to enter the train and see that everybody is a foreigner. I don't want to go outside and see all the signs are arabic now. If one day you woke up and saw that Islamabad was %20 Chinese, everybody speaking Chinese, Chinese shops everywhere, you ask directions to someone and they don't understand you ....you would be very much bothered. You don't need to hate the Chinese for this.

 

[ThunderCat]

As I said time and time again, I'm not against foreign trade.

Construction companies go to Pakistan, build whatever, get paid, and **** off. If they are building things Pakistan can't build on its own, it's benefitial for both sides. Likewise Japanese construction companies build many bridges in Turkey. I was never against that, because it was something we couldn't do on our own.

We couldn't build this

It bothers me that all the Turkish banks got bought out by foreign companies and it bothers me that we're not self sufficient, we import more than we export. These are problems but solution isn't just stopping all trade and economic cooperation.


frankly, I don't really care about this economic debate.

For me the most important thing is the protection of Turkish demographics and Turkish culture. I don't want to enter the train and see that everybody is a foreigner. I don't want to go outside and see all the signs are arabic now. If one day you woke up and saw that Islamabad was %20 Chinese, everybody speaking Chinese, Chinese shops everywhere, you ask directions to someone and they don't understand you ....you would be very much bothered. You don't need to hate the Chinese for this.

Yeah well that's not what I was proposing at all. Pakistanis don't make anywhere even near 20% of Turkey's population.

If a few thousand Pakistanis living and working in Turkey legally bothers you, then be prepared for economic cuts on your side as well.

Why give projects to Turkish companies when we can invite more Chinese or someone else? A huge fraction of Turkey's economy relies on construction, not so for Pakistan.

Banning Turkish airlines from Pakistan and Pakistani airspace will have huge job losses for hundreds of thousands of Turks since most of Southern & South East Asian routes will be difficult to access.

Your proposals to restructure your globalized economy are only circular. For example you want Turkey to built civilian planes for domestic transport. Most of the parts will need to be imported as the country has not enough natural resources to build something like that.

Do you know how expensive a single aircraft program is? Ask Canada. They had to sell the C-series program off to Airbus. Once a Turkish firm sells a hundred planes to Turkish airliners or so, do you think it will be worth the investment? Only if it's sold abroad which again is also globalized economy.

You want to build robots? How many Turks will be put out of work by these robots? Where will the parts come from? Will they be infinitely supplied?

There was a Turkish troll who came to PDF in May and made propaganda and insults against Pakistanis and calling for them to be banned from Turkey. Pakistanis mobbed him on the forum and Waz himself told him any embargo on Pakistanis will have mutual damage. No way will Turkish firms, including THY will be allowed in Pakistan if that happens.

Pakistanis abroad will also boycott coming to Turkey and transiting from there. You might not like tourism, but it was tourism that was relied upon to help Turkey's globalized economy from crashing because of COIVD-19: https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/high-hopes-that-tourism-will-steady-turkeys-economy

 

[TheSolution]

Yeah well, nation states and borders exist for a reason. India is the best place for Indians, Pakistan is the best place for Pakistanis. Turkey for the Turks.

I'm not a big fan of globalization.

This is based but hypocritical of me to say...

@ThunderCat Chor de yaar, iske saat baat karna koi faida nay. Ye bilkul ajnabis nay chata (Sorry for the bad Urdu)

 

[LegionnairE]

Yeah well that's not what I was proposing at all. Pakistanis don't make anywhere even near 20% of Turkey's population.

I wasn't talking about JUST pakistanis, this is the situation in İstanbul and many other cities in Turkey. You get on a train and you look around the wagon and there are no Turks. It's ridiculous

Why give projects to Turkish companies when we can invite more Chinese or someone else?

Do it. If the Chinese do a better job, if they do it for cheaper... why not?

Banning Turkish airlines from Pakistan and Pakistani airspace will have huge job losses for hundreds of thousands of Turks since most of Southern & South East Asian routes will be difficult to access.

Nonsense, planes will fly somewhere else. Turkey wasn't starving before TA opened an office in islamabad. In fact if Pakistan applied a trade Embargo against Turkey, Turkish economy would improve greatly. Because we would start to trade with India, which is a bigger economy.

Bigger trade volume to be had, more construction projects to compete in... etc.

Your proposals to restructure your globalized economy are only circular. For example you want Turkey to built civilian planes for domestic transport. Most of the parts will need to be imported as the country has not enough natural resources to build something like that.

You're arguing against a strawman. I never said we shouldn't import any parts.

It's nice to talk to you, you're an okay guy, but at this point I'm starting to get bored Thundercat. We can agree to disagree if you like.

 

[LegionnairE]

This is based but hypocritical of me to say...

@ThunderCat Chor de yaar, iske saat baat karna koi faida nay. Ye bilkul ajnabis nay chata (Sorry for the bad Urdu)

Thank you, well at least we agree on principle.

 

[ThunderCat]

I wasn't talking about JUST pakistanis, this is the situation in İstanbul and many other cities in Turkey. You get on a train and you look around the wagon and there are no Turks. It's ridiculous


Do it. If the Chinese do a better job, if they do it for cheaper... why not?


Nonsense, planes will fly somewhere else. Turkey wasn't starving before TA opened an office in islamabad. In fact if Pakistan applied a trade Embargo against Turkey, Turkish economy would improve greatly. Because we would start to trade with India, which is a bigger economy.

Bigger trade volume to be had, more construction projects to compete in... etc.


You're arguing against a strawman. I never said we shouldn't import any parts.

It's nice to talk to you, you're an okay guy, but at this point I'm starting to get bored Thundercat. We can agree to disagree if you like.

All I am arguing is your statements are wrong and contradictory. You might not have claimed that parts for robots or anything else will not be imported.

But that's the point. They will be, which makes you reliant on imports. Which means you will be reliant on globalization, which you opposed. Your own defense industry relies on imports. Your high-selling drones contained Canadian and Pakistani parts amongst others.

You don't want globalization and an internalized economy, then goes your drone market. yet you want to build robots already after knowing you're reliant on global economy to build them in the first place.

TA might not have been starving before flights to Pakistan, but it will be cut backs.

Pakistan bans Turkish registered planes from it's airspace and your South Asian routes & South East Asian routes will be cut out, leaving hundreds of thousands of Turks jobless.

Turkey is not Qatar and does not have so much oil reserves to reroute their flights to India and other destinations so this rerouting will eventually cost more than gain.

Plus how will so many Turkish construction firms reach India? Via Gulf airports? Okay but I doubt each and every one of them will be able to find a seat at those ticket prices.

Pakistan bans Turkish businesses and firms including construction companies and you think it will not hurt, considering construction is a major part of the Turkish workforce. Yes it will hurt. Not so for Pakistan.

You're claiming a Pakistani embargo will not have economic setbacks on Turkey, then go ahead and try it.

You don't want to see foreigners on the metro in Turkey, except most of the foreigners living there aren't even Pakistanis.

Plus most foreigners in Turkey are tourists, including but not exceptionally Pakistanis, who contribute 59+ billion to the economy.

You want to restructure your globalized economy yet you propose another globalized economy. Self-contradiction.

it won't work. It'll just put you back on square one. Your country is where it is because of globalization and you're proposing to replace it with another globalization. I am not trying to gain your acceptance, just pointing out the facts.

 

[LegionnairE]

All I am arguing is your statements are wrong and contradictory. You might not have claimed that parts for robots or anything else will not be imported.

But that's the point. They will be, which makes you reliant on imports. Which means you will be reliant on globalization, which you opposed. Your own defense industry relies on imports. Your high-selling drones contained Canadian and Pakistani parts amongst others.

All I want is to increase self sufficiency and decrease imports.

I know we can never completely break away from world economy. I'm not retarded, you don't need to explain this to me.

TA might not have been starving before flights to Pakistan, but it will be cut backs.

This is from 2019, it's a bit old but:

https://simpleflying.com/turkish-airlines-125-countries/

TA flies to 125 countries. It doesn't REALLY matter if it falls to 124 or increases to 126. I don't even care if the company shrinks by %20 or something. It's the sea trade that matters the most for Turkey.

Pakistan bans Turkish registered planes from it's airspace and your South Asian routes & South East Asian routes will be cut out, leaving hundreds of thousands of Turks jobless.

You overestimate South Asia's importance to Turkey and you underestimate Turkish planes ability to go around Pakistani airspace if necessary.

Look we don't even bow to threats from America. You're not going to scare me with these little things.

You're claiming a Pakistani embargo will not have economic setbacks on Turkey, then go ahead and try it.

It would not hurt AT ALL

Turkey Exports By Country

Trading Economics provides data for 20 million economic indicators from 196 countries including actual values, consensus figures, forecasts, historical time series and news. Turkey Exports By Country - was last updated on Friday, September 27, 2024.

tradingeconomics.com

Pakistan makes up %0.5 of Turkey's exports. I'm sorry but you're suffering from delusions of grandeur.

 

[ThunderCat]

All I want is to increase self sufficiency and decrease imports.

You overestimate South Asia's importance to Turkey and you underestimate Turkish planes ability to go around Pakistani airspace if necessary.

Just about everything you proposed requires massive imports. You cannot build drones without massive imports and you already want to build planes and robots.

And as I also wrote Turkey is not Qatar. Turkish planes will not simply go around Pakistani airspace without spending more and more fuel money and essentially suffering a long term loss.

Not a problem for Pakistan since our planes seldomly use Turkish airspace, even for European flights.

They will have to cut out flights to much of South Asia and Southeast Asia as well, which is about half their Asian network, and we know how a big part of Turkey's economy is reliant on transport.

All I'm trying to explain to you is Pakistanis are not one-sided reliant on Turkey for economic benefits. It goes both ways.

You don't want foreigners in your country and yet your country earns more than 59 billion just from visitors.

I don't know what you do for a living and it's none of my business but I am willing to bet you'll be indirectly affected if Turkey's transportation, tourism and construction businesses take a hit since less money is being cirulated; thereby increasing your cost of living.

Sorry but you are dreaming at this point.

 

[ThunderCat]

This is based but hypocritical of me to say...

@ThunderCat Chor de yaar, iske saat baat karna koi faida nay. Ye bilkul ajnabis nay chata (Sorry for the bad Urdu)

Your Lashkari is just fine mate And i agree. Koi faida neyhe hai is kay saat.

 

[LegionnairE]

And as I also wrote Turkey is not Qatar. Turkish planes will not simply go around Pakistani airspace without spending more and more fuel money and essentially suffering a long term loss.

Friend. I don't care. You brought up this airline nonsense and I responded. I don't even care if Turkish Airlines goes out of business tomorrow. There are other airline companies in Turkey. How can I explain this to you? I don't give a **** about anybody's airspace, especially countries that don't border Turkey.

All I'm trying to explain to you is Pakistanis are not one-sided reliant on Turkey for economic benefits. It goes both ways.

I like having good relations with Pakistan. I want to Increase trade with Pakistan. But in reality our economic ties with Pakistan are of no consequence, I'm sorry.

I know everybody wants to feel important. I might have hurt your ego there a little bit. But Pakistan practically doesn't matter to Turkish economy.

You constitute %0.13 of our imports, it's so small I couldn't even find it on the chart

Turkey Imports By Country

Trading Economics provides data for 20 million economic indicators from 196 countries including actual values, consensus figures, forecasts, historical time series and news. Turkey Imports By Country - was last updated on Friday, September 27, 2024.

tradingeconomics.com

And You constitute %0.34 of our exports. Less than Albania. (a country with 2.8 million population)

Turkey Exports By Country

Trading Economics provides data for 20 million economic indicators from 196 countries including actual values, consensus figures, forecasts, historical time series and news. Turkey Exports By Country - was last updated on Friday, September 27, 2024.

tradingeconomics.com

practically insignificant.


@R Wing You remember what I told you about self-awareness?

 

[ThunderCat]

Friend. I don't care. You brought up this airline nonsense and I responded. I don't even care if Turkish Airlines goes out of business tomorrow. There are other airline companies in Turkey. How can I explain this to you? I don't give a **** about anybody's airspace, especially countries that don't border Turkey.



I like having good relations with Pakistan. I want to Increase trade with Pakistan. But in reality our economic ties with Pakistan are of no consequence, I'm sorry.

I'm just pointing out the facts. Transport makes a huge fraction of Turkey's economy. If THY goes bankrupt, weather you care or not, it will affect the country significantly. COVID-19 nearly destroyed your economy by nearly killing THY's transport and tourism industry.

Millions of Turks were left jobless before tourism resumed in Turkey to save the threatened economy. And Pakistanis were part of the tourism, even before tourism boomed since the 2000s.

Friend. I don't care. You brought up this airline nonsense and I responded. I don't even care if Turkish Airlines goes out of business tomorrow. There are other airline companies in Turkey. How can I explain this to you? I don't give a **** about anybody's airspace, especially countries that don't border Turkey.



I like having good relations with Pakistan. I want to Increase trade with Pakistan. But in reality our economic ties with Pakistan are of no consequence, I'm sorry.

I know everybody wants to feel important. I might have hurt your ego there a little bit. But Pakistan practically doesn't matter to Turkish economy.

It doesn't matter. My point to you, sir is that it's not like all Pakistanis are refugees in Turkey and living off charity at the expense of locals. The Pakistanis contributing to the country's economy are far greater.

Your links of trade only include physical products. I am also pointing out to transportation, tourism, individual investments by Pakistanis in an already fragile economy desperate for outside money. Like this example and it's pre-COVID https://markets.businessinsider.com...-grown-by-50-to-reach-100-thousand-1028279195

Airspace is just a part of my argument. If everyone lived in their country including Turks, Turkey would not be where it is today. It's only COVID that changed that really.

India & Pakistan do not trade much, but when Indians embargoed Pakistan thinking it would hurt them, Pakistan did the same. Indian airines don't even fly to Pakistan. But banning their planes damaged their Middle Eastern and European markets quite badly. They eventually lifted it seeing it did not work.

If you de-globalize your economy and propose what you call self-reliance, you are already in need of massive imports as you have no sufficient natural resources to build such an economy.

My other argument with you was you were calling Turkey "secular" and Pakistan "Islamic." The truth is only the urban upper class areas of Turkey are less religious. I know for a fact that the rural class of Turkey aside from the Western coastal Turks are quite religious, even jihadist at times.

So there's no point comparing the non-religious class of Turkey to the religious class of Pakistan. It's not a fair or honest comparison.

It's like comparing the secular classes of Pakistan mostly from Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, including myself, to the religious class of Turkey.

Regards.

 

[LegionnairE]

I'm just pointing out the facts. Transport makes a huge fraction of Turkey's economy. If THY goes bankrupt, weather you care or not, it will affect the country significantly. COVID-19 nearly destroyed your economy by nearly killing THY's transport and tourism industry.

Millions of Turks were left jobless before tourism resumed in Turkey to save the threatened economy. And Pakistanis were part of the tourism, even before tourism boomed since the 2000s.




It doesn't matter. My point to you, sir is that it's not like all Pakistanis are refugees in Turkey and living off charity at the expense of locals. The Pakistanis contributing to the country's economy are far greater.

Your links of trade only include physical products. I am also pointing out to transportation, tourism, individual investments by Pakistanis in an already fragile economy desperate for outside money. Like this example and it's pre-COVID https://markets.businessinsider.com...-grown-by-50-to-reach-100-thousand-1028279195

Airspace is just a part of my argument. If everyone lived in their country including Turks, Turkey would not be where it is today. It's only COVID that changed that really.

India & Pakistan do not trade much, but when Indians embargoed Pakistan thinking it would hurt them, Pakistan did the same. Indian airines don't even fly to Pakistan. But banning their planes damaged their Middle Eastern and European markets quite badly. They eventually lifted it seeing it did not work.

If you de-globalize your economy and propose what you call self-reliance, you are already in need of massive imports as you have no sufficient natural resources to build such an economy.

My other argument with you was you were calling Turkey "secular" and Pakistan "Islamic." The truth is only the urban upper class areas of Turkey are less religious. I know for a fact that the rural class of Turkey aside from the Western coastal Turks are quite religious, even jihadist at times.

So there's no point comparing the non-religious class of Turkey to the religious class of Pakistan. It's not a fair or honest comparison.

It's like comparing the secular classes of Pakistan mostly from Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, including myself, to the religious class of Turkey.

Regards.

Okay, I think I've heard everything. And I said everything I wanted to say. Without Pakistan, Turkey is nothing. If we increase visa restrictions Pakistan will close the airspace and Turkish economy will collapse and we will starve.

Let's agree to disagree and move on because I'm bored.

 

[Englishman]

I came across an afghan refugee in Dubai once.

Was working at some gift shop around the gold souk district.

Anyway....spoke broken English. I asked him his future plans and that was to go to Germany, go to a German university and then get a job. I doubt he's met a German....

Asked if he could read or write (in any language).. he couldn't. Does he speak German? No.

He had no skills whatsoever. No education. Unsure how he planned to study abroad at university level. These guys are stuck between hunter gathers (whom I respect) and "advanced" western civilisation. In no man's land and cannot sustain themselves.

 

[Foinikas]

I came across an afghan refugee in Dubai once.

Was working at some gift shop around the gold souk district.

Anyway....spoke broken English. I asked him his future plans and that was to go to Germany, go to a German university and then get a job. I doubt he's met a German....

Asked if he could read or write (in any language).. he couldn't. Does he speak German? No.

He had no skills whatsoever. No education. Unsure how he planned to study abroad at university level. These guys are stuck between hunter gathers (whom I respect) and "advanced" western civilisation. In no man's land and cannot sustain themselves.

Typical Afghans.

They don't know and don't bother to learn the language,the customs,the laws of the country they go to.

One day I was talking with my Pakistani friend on Facebook,I told him that Albanians are not afraid of work,they will clean weeds from fields and gardens,they will harvest,they will build,they will do all the hard work...but they can't think alone. They need somebody to tell them what to do next,to oversee their work. My friend told me that's how Afghans are. If you leave them without instructions or overseeing,they will just go back to doing nothing or not know what to do next.

In some ways,Albanians are the Afghans of the Balkans. Criminality,failure to achieve anything,backwards mentality,in northern Albania they still have tribal laws etc.

 

[LegionnairE]

Typical Afghans.

They don't know and don't bother to learn the language,the customs,the laws of the country they go to.

One day I was talking with my Pakistani friend on Facebook,I told him that Albanians are not afraid of work,they will clean weeds from fields and gardens,they will harvest,they will build,they will do all the hard work...but they can't think alone. They need somebody to tell them what to do next,to oversee their work. My friend told me that's how Afghans are. If you leave them without instructions or overseeing,they will just go back to doing nothing or not know what to do next.

In some ways,Albanians are the Afghans of the Balkans. Criminality,failure to achieve anything,backwards mentality,in northern Albania they still have tribal laws etc.

Well, they can never be like the Afghans without the pedophilia and rapey-ness