Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA

[CaptainJackSparrow]

Best Comment of the thread...

Would like to add some more things... L1 is not the sole criteria on which Rafale has been selected. France has sweetened the deal by offering so much under the table that it was impossible to resist.
Plus Germany did not help it when they refused to supply guns to police force of two states on the grounds of Human right violations. Now that India has money and spend and options on the table, chances of a sanction prone plane being selected was pretty less...

That might have been THE reason for all we know.

I can't believe the Germans could be $20bn silly.

 

[SBD-3]

It is not rocket science either to see that the IAF is more than likely to induct 200+ MMRCA which is more than the number of JFT PAF is looking to induct so the numerical advantage argument is out not to mention of course the quality is on MMRCA's side so you'd be looking at 350-450 JFTs to counter MMRCA, maybe 200 Chinese 5th gen (whenever this happens). Additonally the IAF also has/is getting 300+ MKI and 150+ LCA (Mk.1 + 2) and at least 3 SQD (of a 250 unit order) of FGFA 5th gen fighters by the end of the decade.


I'd love to see what members would suggest for PAF to counter this.

The story behind 20 Billion USD deal was that 20Billion USD is the cost of orignal order (120-MMRCA) which has been escalated due to delays, inflations and of course the expected currency devaluations over the ten years. The requirements by IAF were later increased to 200 MMRCAs which was misreported by Indian Media as a part of deal (Which would cost much more than 20 Billion dollars after accounting for additional 80 aircrafts). Secondly, in all these 10 years, there has only been technical evaluations and the commercial negotiations are yet to come after the announcement of tender. However, Janes reported that the price difference between the parties was only 5% means that there was no expectation of price benefits from tendering process leading to the need for further commercial negotiations.

 

[T90TankGuy]

any chances of euro fighter for Pakistan as now we have chosen Rafale...?

come on they don't have the money for one , second i doubt the EF will even be offered to them .

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

come on they don't have the money for one , second i doubt the EF will even be offered to them .

I'm sure the Europeans also know that any modern technology in Pakistani hands is bound to land up in China.

...and with EFT having US made components as well, the chances of a future sale to Pakistan are rather sllim.

 

[SBD-3]

I'm sure the Europeans also know that any modern technology in Pakistani hands is bound to land up in China.

...and with EFT having US made components as well, the chances of a future sale to Pakistan are rather sllim.

FYI China has taken a much more direct route, they have acquired a fair amount of defense tech firms in Europe and are looking for more......

 

[SBD-3]

Here you go Jackie

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

FYI China has taken a much more direct route, they have acquired a fair amount of defense tech firms in Europe and are looking for more......

all that stuff still has a long way to go before it shows up any solid results for you guys

 

[Tshering22]

The story behind 20 Billion USD deal was that 20Billion USD is the cost of orignal order (120-MMRCA) which has been escalated due to delays, inflations and of course the expected currency devaluations over the ten years. The requirements by IAF were later increased to 200 MMRCAs which was misreported by Indian Media as a part of deal (Which would cost much more than 20 Billion dollars after accounting for additional 80 aircrafts).

The rupee has gained with the same pace it lost to the dollar in the last one month. Be my guest to check the news. It was writing on the wall that we would go for 200+ jets of the type. With 4 types of jets each targeted at between 150-250 jets, our idea is 100% replacement of old aircraft plus increase the fighter fleet to at least 1,200 jets in the coming 1-2 decades.

We naturally need this boost, you know.

Secondly, in all these 10 years, there has only been technical evaluations and the commercial negotiations are yet to come after the announcement of tender. However, Janes reported that the price difference between the parties was only 5% means that there was no expectation of price benefits from tendering process leading to the need for further commercial negotiations.

There is more than one type of costs incurred mate. One is the flyaway cost aka the cost for available jet. Another one and that one is major, is the lifecycle and facilities cost that any nation has to incur in setting up facilities. Earlier while we had a zoo of fleet in 70s and 80s, all were sources from 90% from 1 country aka USSR. Today we have a very diverse fleet and getting Typhoons in would have meant two things:

1- retain existing facilities for those aircraft who don't require immediate replacements

2- build new facilities for maintenance, operation and other tertiaries for the totally unfamiliar and new Typhoons.

Dassault has a big presence in India and a very historic one. We already have facilities for Mirage 2000s all over the country which would need only some new enhancements and Rafales are good to go.

________________

The same reason why PAF went for JF-17s and FC-20s: apart from low fly-away costs and relative political independence, the life-cycle costs for both the jets would be best bang for the buck, since you have Chinese jets for a long time and existing facilities would only need limited facelift to get the new jets going for 'em.

---------- Post added at 09:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------

FYI China has taken a much more direct route, they have acquired a fair amount of defense tech firms in Europe and are looking for more......

Every country around the planet has a method that suits them man.

 

[Luftwaffe]

WJ i remember the former ACM stating that the Gripen was an advanced platform and the PAF was not ready for it. as far as EFT / Rafale go, I cant remember the PAF rejecting them! - what were the grounds for rejection? - cost probably as in the 90's with the Mirage 2000's which were offered at US$60m / aircraft.

Thailand-Hungry-S.Africa can operate Gripens while PAF has excuses. PAF has set its directions F-16s/JF-17s and if money is available FC-20s. But it is time PAF look for AESA option for the F-16 Fleet atleast. And FC-20 if ever lands in should come by default with AESA.

PAF never openly rejects unlike hindustan. PAF backed down due to higher price tag and technology it couldn't cope with, I would still say the current direction is all PAF is heading into no other platform until next 10 Years.

Has anyone calculated the cost of 18 F-16s at $3.1B including all weapons systems and setup etc i would recommend others to calculate the life time cost of these 18 F-16s these are not cheap thus to F-16 procurement for PAF is equally costly. IF PAF can windup all troubles with US are order to level the figure of 100 F-16s with AESA it would be cost effective solution from the point of view of F-16s.

At the end of day thankyou ppp/pml-n-q you fkup economy you suffer.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

the internet is buzzing with the news (not officially confirmed) that the IAF has selected Rafale as its MMRCA.

what options PAF and its planners can come up with now that the IAF has chosen this advanced platform?

great news for Dassault, the company saved from financial ruin

 

[Windjammer]

It is not rocket science either to see that the IAF is more than likely to induct 200+ MMRCA which is more than the number of JFT PAF is looking to induct so the numerical advantage argument is out not to mention of course the quality is on MMRCA's side so you'd be looking at 350-450 JFTs to counter MMRCA, maybe 200 Chinese 5th gen (whenever this happens). Additonally the IAF also has/is getting 300+ MKI and 150+ LCA (Mk.1 + 2) and at least 3 SQD (of a 250 unit order) of FGFA 5th gen fighters by the end of the decade.


I'd love to see what members would suggest for PAF to counter this.

Seems you didn't pick up the psyche of my post, let me put it this way, for the price of a single Rafale, the PAF can field at least 4 JF-17s, for argument sake translate that into, say IAF sends one to attack Pakistan while PAF deploys 4 for the same price tag, take out the Rafale, and there is no joy for you, on the other hand, even if PAF loses 50% of the strike force, the remainder could still do some damage. You can argue about the quantity all you like but keep in mind that it's the IAF which has to defend a much wider blue yonder. Every airforce has it's own operational requirements, PAF refused both the MiG-21 and SU-7 when offered by Russia in the late 60s, as they never met PAF specifications, yet 20 years later it opted for the MiG derivative, the F-7 because it filled the requirement.
Regardless of what you or others may deploy, the focus for the PAF has always been Quality rather than quantity, since at the end of the day, all that matters is the pilot factor.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

any chances of euro fighter for Pakistan as now we have chosen Rafale...?

its not TIT for TAT purchase.
J-10 will provide whatever PAF might get from EF2000.

 

[Imran Khan]

come on they don't have the money for one , second i doubt the EF will even be offered to them .

again same kiddish post lolz when did PAF chief informed GOP that they need jets for counter india? its not the system in a country or air force have to manage it by own lolz when they need it they will must inform to law makers .as before

 

[prabhakar]

Seems you didn't pick up the psyche of my post, let me put it this way, for the price of a single Rafale, the PAF can field at least 4 JF-17s, for argument sake translate that into, say IAF sends one to attack Pakistan while PAF deploys 4 for the same price tag, take out the Rafale, and there is no joy for you, on the other hand, even if PAF loses 50% of the strike force, the remainder could still do some damage. You can argue about the quantity all you like but keep in mind that it's the IAF which has to defend a much wider blue yonder. Every airforce has it's own operational requirements, PAF refused both the MiG-21 and SU-7 when offered by Russia in the late 60s, as they never met PAF specifications, yet 20 years later it opted for the MiG derivative, the F-7 because it filled the requirement.
Regardless of what you or others may deploy, the focus for the PAF has always been Quality rather than quantity, since at the end of the day, all that matters is the pilot factor.

the basic fallacy of your post is there for everyone to see.. let me put it simply for you

You don't have quality

and

You don't have quantity

Please don't make yourself as laughing stock by implying that PAF rejected both the birds on the basis of quality. The best you have is F-16 BLK 52 and for your info a better version of it with AESA has been rejected by IAF.

---------- Post added at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------

its not TIT for TAT purchase.
J-10 will provide whatever PAF might get from EF2000.

It is not yet operational.. operational manuals are yet to decide. IAF will also take her sweet time to know the full capability of RAfale

 

[manojb]

In my opinion paf wud prefered india to choose eft. This way they cud made deal with frenchy. French can still sell their goodies but at ticket price. And now their prod lines r busy. With bad relation with nato , paf is stuck with china. Pstan can make smart move and sign deal woth russia. Then again russia and west r wary of china copying their tech.