Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA

[rockstarIN]

PAF tested the EF in 2005, the Rafale was also checked out at some point, however both were rejected as not the best options.

The reason behind actually for the rejection is

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

I have said this before and will repeat again..... moving on from the very convenient option of A-5s/F-7s, the PAF can now deploy some four or five JF-17s for the price of a single Rafle.
Dollar for Dollar, you can launch a whole squadron of 16 Thunders to counter an attack by say 4 Rafales.
Even if 50% of each attacking force is taken out, it's no rocket science to conclude, who will still be able to inflict more damage.

Tell that to a platoon of rifle wielding soldiers going up against 2 soldiers with M 16s

A couple of other points..

1. The flyaway cost difference between a JF 17 and Rafale is probably closer to 3x or so.
2. You are forgetting the pilot cost component. FOr 3 JF 17s you would want to field against 1 rafale, you would need to ready and maintain 3x no. of pilots and 3x amount of local infrastructure.. Once you factor that in, the cost advantage over the life cycle doesnt remain that favorable. That is mainly the reason why countries are moving towards smaller forces of highly competent planes vs larger number of low end ones.

On a lighter note, if you want to take your girlfriend to a party, what would you prefer.. 1 Mercedes slk or 10 Suzuki Mehrans

 

[fatman17]

PAF tested the EF in 2005, the Rafale was also checked out at some point, however both were rejected as not the best options.

WJ i remember the former ACM stating that the Gripen was an advanced platform and the PAF was not ready for it. as far as EFT / Rafale go, i cant remember the PAF rejecting them! - what were the grounds for rejection? - cost probably as in the 90's with the Mirage 2000's which were offered at US$60m / aircraft.

 

[saiyan0321]

congrats to india what we can do is first re make the entire fleet then think on it like everyone said pakistan has to be in budget so i think after the jf17 they will go for other chinese 5th gen planes and its best to stay on a few types otherwise variations can be a problem for us

 

[Windjammer]

WJ i remember the former ACM stating that the Gripen was an advanced platform and the PAF was not ready for it. as far as EFT / Rafale go, i cant remember the PAF rejecting them! - what were the grounds for rejection? - cost probably as in the 90's with the Mirage 2000's which were offered at US$60m / aircraft.

The remark was probably a nice way of saying "no thanks", as the PAF was still keen to get the F-16s released.
The story with Rafale has been the dilemma of being a launch customer for a platform not fairing well even against the Sea Harriers and old Mirage-5s during Charles-de-Gaul sea tour.

 

[jbond197]

PAF can opt for Gripen too.. Heard it's a nice Fighter..

OOPs my Bad, Didn't see that option is already discussed on the thread!

 

[Donatello]

Without money.. the current force plan of 150 JF's and 100 F-16's will have to suffice..with 50-60 FC-20's when funds become available later...By the time most of the JF-17's will have been inducted.. the first Rafale squadrons will have stood up with the IAF.

Money is what matters.. and the PAF has none to spare.

You know what, Oscar, i fail to understand this money logic of yours.

Remember in the old days, the 80s when Pakistan went to USA shopping for 111 f-16s off the shelf and paying them at list price?

Now Pakistan's economy was no where near today's level. But we are crippled for funds. My question is, that each year since 1980s, PAF budget has increased, not decreased. And every successive year, it increased upon the previous increases budget. (compounding increase) so why are we short of money today? We didn't buy any hi-tech or expensive aircraft from 1990-2006. That is a good 16 years. All we bought was the cheap F-7s and used Mirages. That doesn't cost a lot of money.

So my question is, since our economy is the largest it has ever been in history, we still don't have money to increase our combat jets numbers even with Chinese aircraft (as the word goes, it's cheaper) let alone western tech.

We haven't even fought a war.

So please tell me....where has the money gone?

Because someone really needs to do auditing of PAF/Military's accounts....as they are eating the largest chunk of our budget.

 

[abbasniazi]

IMHO, this deal is not so momentous for the IAF but its humungous for the Rafale.

Rafale, despite being a state of the art plane was in desperate need of a huge contract of sale from a foreign customer to bring it the certificate of fieldable, viable, worth spending $$$ aircraft and this deal will do the trick for rafale, i think looking at this deal many reluctant customers will now have confidence in this platform and rafale may receive a few more contracts from the foreign customers...my 2 cents...

 

[Windjammer]

The reason behind actually for the rejection is

I am sure the PAF was well aware of the cost before analysing the Rafle.....and the contingent certainly didn't travel to France for a photo shoot.

 

[prabhakar]

I am sure the PAF was well aware of the cost before analysing the Rafle.....and the contingent certainly didn't travel to France for a photo shoot.

please state the reasons ....

 

[SQ8]

You know what, Oscar, i fail to understand this money logic of yours.

Remember in the old days, the 80s when Pakistan went to USA shopping for 111 f-16s off the shelf and paying them at list price?

Now Pakistan's economy was no where near today's level. But we are crippled for funds. My question is, that each year since 1980s, PAF budget has increased, not decreased. And every successive year, it increased upon the previous increases budget. (compounding increase) so why are we short of money today? We didn't buy any hi-tech or expensive aircraft from 1990-2006. That is a good 16 years. All we bought was the cheap F-7s and used Mirages. That doesn't cost a lot of money.

So my question is, since our economy is the largest it has ever been in history, we still don't have money to increase our combat jets numbers even with Chinese aircraft (as the word goes, it's cheaper) let alone western tech.

We haven't even fought a war.

So please tell me....where has the money gone?

Because someone really needs to do auditing of PAF/Military's accounts....as they are eating the largest chunk of our budget.

While the acquisition of cheap fighters in the late 90's was cheap but a lot was spent upgrading them, also during those times..due to the threat of sanctions we could not buy stuff that we wanted.. it was not free either. The PAF's budget increase also accounts for inflation. The best time for the PAF was just before the 2005 earthquake. We really did have the funds to even go for the EF if we wanted.. but the amount we could procure for that cost was not cost effective vs the F-16.

Currently.. despite the increasing budget figures.. its actually a relative decrease to what it was when inflation and overall economy is taken into account.
The PAF's F-16 and Erieye fleet is taking up most of the new purchase budget.. as the JF-17, the ZDK are all on deferred payments to the Chinese.
Military aircraft are expensive to maintain.. purchase cost is not the only thing that matters.
Multiple types also compound costs.. and till recently the PAF technically operated 7 different types of aircraft. with the Mirage III and V counted as two different types.

The economy today is even worse than reported.. and the PAF is struggling to even pay off the loans its owes for its purchases.

 

[rockstarIN]

I am sure the PAF was well aware of the cost before analysing the Rafle.....and the contingent certainly didn't travel to France for a photo shoot.

They might be there for censer talk for JFT in early 2000s. You guys always after F-16s.

 

[Imran Khan]

JF 17 and Chinese 5th Gen aircrafts!

why we are under sanctions ? may be they hide a plan which make you surprise like never before .

 

[lkozhi]

Things are of great value if indian buys or chinese copies it.

 

[z9-ec]

The most logical answer is to pursue J-10B on priority basis with the addition of additional JF-17s as Winjammer pointed out. The reason I say so is because India will have 12 Rafales by the end of 2012.