Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA

[Arsalan]

true j-10B with AESA, IRST and advance avionics will definitely be match for any fourth gen aircrft. chinese have mtured their avionics to level to work on fifth gen aircrfts

people do talk about thunders engine but to be honest we should look at t/w ratio rather and thunder with nearly one(0.97-1.01) is at par with any jet. it only makes it short legged and low carrying capacity but thunder was suppose to be like this to decrease its operational costs
well established aircrafts like mirages2000 had a much lower T/w ratio than either F-16s or thunders..
in short RD-93 is suffcient for PAF needs..i think only issue is its life which is quiet short as compared to western ones

yarr i amv ery happy they selected rafale instead of EFT

j-10B against EFT wasnt a good option

bt j-10B if the AESA,IRST,and the proposed ws-10G come true than it can giev a tough competition to rafale as well as it can fight head to head with rafale

very true!
technologically they will be on par.

EF is the best aircraft after the 5th generation aircrafts!
what they call,, 4.5 ++..
rafale, no doubt a high tech paltform is of the same league as J-10B.
EF would have given the idian a real technology edge.

i talked to a friend on mine who is aeronautical engineer and working at PAC, as per him and there analysis, rafale, F-18 and Su-35 would have been counterded by the J-10-B.

For Gripen they were looking positively toward the JFT next blocks

EF was one hell of a beast PAF seemd a little concerned about.

much more then any of the rest.

its good IAF is getting Rafale!

 

[farhan_9909]

ws-10G is a variant of ws-10 with 155kn thrust.
Rafale vs J-10B
both are medium weight fighter
both will have aesa bt J-10B has at present
J-10A carry 6ton payload.J-10B with higher thrust engine as well as aerodynamics changes will allow it to carry 8ton or more
J-10B will have 5th gen avionics as it is already a tested for J-20 avionics.Rafale has spectra no doubt very good
rafale(150kn max thrust twin engine) J-10B(ws-13Btvc+134kn thrust or ws-10G tvc+155kn)PAF will choose the best so ws-10G 155kn thrust
J-10B will have a slighter higher twr ratio..bt even the J-10A is more manouverible than Rafale.J-10B will be more
rafale range is 3700km and J-10B 3400km

so J-10B and Rafale both are from same league while EFT was a class apart.

J-10B can easily answer to Rafale in future.bt now we need to atleast increase the plan from 36 to 100.

As a side note

thanks to MOD of india for doing this.
beside this pak wasnt going to purchase any arms from france in future.the possible purchase we could do from EU was from Italy(avionics for j-10B-JFT) and IRIS-T WVR from Germany..and i am sure even now we have those option in our hand

 

[deckingraj]

its not a correct analogy...because currently IN is the boss this side of the malaccas and can pretty much handle anything the PLAN fields because of lack of logistics of PLAN and andaman and nicobar islands...

You are not getting my point...The analogy is not about who is the boss...The analogy is that when it comes to defenses a much depleted force can take on a better armed adversary in certain context...The way IN can take on a mighty PLAN in her own backyard, PAF can also hold its ground viz-a-viz IAF in her own backyard(i ahve given reason how in previous post)...Having said that you must have heard about the lost decade of PAF....this is the time period when IAF introduced MKI's and bring in BVR capability...In last 5-7 years PAF has worked very hard to bridge in the parity...Now in terms of capability they have almost everything what we have....However when it comes to quantity fielding the above said capability we beat them hands down...Now with Rafael in picture we are again moving leaps and bounds in that context and thus their headache increases....

well never mind..you seem not to be getting what im trying to say....the rafale is not the gamechanger in the indo-pak air war balance...it was the MKI that claimed the honors....while rafale can yet claim it in the Eastern front....

Now there are some serious flaws in your assertion...let me point them..

a) I never said Rafael is a game changer...It is you who is saying that Rafael does not change anything...It is this point i am debating against...
b) MKI was a game changer in 90's and early 2000...However since then PAF has worked hard to bridge in the gap with whatever limited means they had....Their first move was to bring in the capability...F16 Block 52 with BVRAAMS and Eyrie awacs were the first step in this regard... Investment in JF17 is another move...
c) Now consider a JF17 having an AESA radar loaded with BVRAAM using Eyrie awac to fire a salvo at MKI...See how a paltry JF17 can become a potent challenge for MKI??? This is the future that PAF is hoping for....

So to conclude if i talk about today then PAF do have all what we have in store...Where they are missing is the respective number of Fighters they have 4-4.5 generation capabilities....This difference is pathetic...which they would have manged to plug with their acquisitions in future...but now that problem has increased manifolds...

Just to give you some food for thought...Rafael's are first going to be deployed in our western border before eastern border gets its attention...May be it can give you some more insight into what i am trying to convey...

P.S : Let me clarify IMHO India's decision of MMRCA was certainly keeping China in mind(actually as per IAF they are not being adversary specific but capability specific which imho is an ideal thing to do)...but that doesn't mean PAF does not need to worry about it...

 

[RoYaL~GuJJaR]

and yes, selection of Rafael is good for US as well.
it will be easier to answer the Rafael factor then it would have been to tackle the EF.
EF is no doubt much better then any of the bidders in MMRCA tender.
i guess there were some kick back or financial constrain involved as well in selection of Rafael

the new J-10B will be a good match for this western platform.

even the upgraded JFT with AESA and better engine will be a good competition!!
i agree there is some time in getting JFT with AESA but then again, there is also time in IAF getting good number of Rafael!!

Mr Opinionator,

I really don't know whether you said that because of ignorance or some obvious genuine reasons.I think the post below may help you out.

India's Defense Procurement Procedure (DPP) had two steps.

1. Technical qualifications - Find out which fighters meet IAF's 643 specifications the most. American, Russian and Swedish jets thrown out the window. Also, explain to the people thrown out, what specifications there fighters didn't meet.

2. Get the lowest bidder among the fighters down selected from step 1.

This makes the system transparent and removes any chances of corruption. That is why Indian DPP is so lengthy and time consuming.

As for India unable to afford it. Tthe $10.4 billion was sanctioned in 2007, this deal will be signed in the financial year 2012-13.

India's GDP was $1.25 trillion in 2007, India's GDP was 1.73 trillion in 2010-11. We will grow at 7-7.5% due to the slowdown this year, that means, considering worst case of 7% GDP growth, at the end of this year our GDP will be $1.85 trillion. Are you sure the value of $10 billion going to even $20 billion is a real big deal? Also, the cost will be spread over years anyway.

World Bank, World Development Indicators - Google Public Data Explorer

 

[Arsalan]

Mr Opinionator,

I really don't know whether you said that because of ignorance or some obvious genuine reasons.I think the post below may help you out.

well Mr. ??? what ever your name is,,
my name is Arsalan!
i m not here for tags n ranks!

yes, your post was helpful, thanks!

Mind going through the old IAF MMRCA threads!
you will find what i was saying!

 

[Big Boss]

Something to remember here is that 'net-centricity' works to the advantage of both sides, if both sides are pursuing it. Pakistan's investments in the Swedish and Chinese AEW&C's, along with the work done and being done on linking all of its air assets to a C4 system, would largely negate the 'radar range advantage' that larger Indian fighters possess, since 'detection of an Indian air threat and relaying that information to PAF fighter jets' would be done initially through the AEW&C's - the same is true on the Indian side - Indian AWACs would detect the PAF long before the MMRCA or Sukhois would.

And when one side or the other has enemy AC detection, a whole range of factors, systems and processes come into play, both local to the fighter jets as well as the supporting systems. Fighter based ECM, AWACs based ECM, missile range and performance, ground based countermeasures etc. etc. etc.

So even with a fleet comprised mainly of the JF-17, equipped with advanced SRAAMs, MRAAMs and LRAAM's and ECCM suites, the MMRCA+Sukhoi Indian threat is not the 'END ALL HUGE ADVANTAGE' that some are trying to paint it as, from both sides of the border.

1. By above post it looks like PAF can face any force or whole world in defensive mode but that's not the reality.

2. And for net centric warfare the most important requirement are:

a.) Dedicated communication satellite which PAF don't have IAF will have by 2014.

What will PAf will do if communication is cut off.

b.) Dedicated spy satellite which PAF don't have but IAF have.

3. You are not ignoring:

a.) Dependance on USA for spares etc.

b.) Kill switch in F 16s

c.) Blinding of PAF by USA through denial of GPS as they have done it in Iraq.

 

[A1Kaid]

To be honest not much can be done about this unless Pakistan acquires good governance and attains economic progress for at least a decade. The single factor that is preventing military modernization in the PM is finance, until that important criteria can be met the forces level of progress will remain stagnate, and of course that is no progress at all.

Though, if we are talking about war, there are still operations that can be done to neutralize some of this threat, they will have to be more extreme. Though, I don't have full trust and confidence in the PM leadership's skill, so I cannot give them the benefit of the doubt in war.

Though it is important to remember an attack is not imminent nor more likely to occur because of this procurement.

 

[Big Boss]

ws-10G is a variant of ws-10 with 155kn thrust.
Rafale vs J-10B
both are medium weight fighter
both will have aesa bt J-10B has at present
J-10A carry 6ton payload.J-10B with higher thrust engine as well as aerodynamics changes will allow it to carry 8ton or more
J-10B will have 5th gen avionics as it is already a tested for J-20 avionics.Rafale has spectra no doubt very good
rafale(150kn max thrust twin engine) J-10B(ws-13Btvc+134kn thrust or ws-10G tvc+155kn)PAF will choose the best so ws-10G 155kn thrust
J-10B will have a slighter higher twr ratio..bt even the J-10A is more manouverible than Rafale.J-10B will be more
rafale range is 3700km and J-10B 3400km

so J-10B and Rafale both are from same league while EFT was a class apart.

J-10B can easily answer to Rafale in future.bt now we need to atleast increase the plan from 36 to 100.

As a side note

thanks to MOD of india for doing this.
beside this pak wasnt going to purchase any arms from france in future.the possible purchase we could do from EU was from Italy(avionics for j-10B-JFT) and IRIS-T WVR from Germany..and i am sure even now we have those option in our hand

I don't know you have info of over US$ 10 billion contract for next generation submarines by Indian Navy.

What if India decides for HDW submarines from Germany?

 

[Rank]

Question Mark on Policy makers of PAKISTAN ARMED FORCES ....

Stop lame excuses about Money and Training! We have much better economy thn India in 2004-2006 and we have much better time as compare to India to fullfill our requirements ... WHAT OUR ARMED FORCES GENERALS, NAVAL HEADS and AIRFORCES LEADERAAAN Doing ????? let me tell you what...

First they dont have brain to run the organization secondly put money in their pockets and making HOUSING SOCIETIES ANND BUYING MERCEDES and BMW'z and send whole families abroad! thats what reality from last 22 years... Pakistan Army, Airforce especially Navy extremely in BAD SHAPE... and lacking in technology and now in quantity.... from last 30 years this Airforce ... "A COUNTRY WHO IN THE STATE OF WAR since 1947" that country have JUST ONLY 50 Frontline Fighter who is also fighting WORLD's so called bullshit WAR ON TERROR... Amazing thinktanks and strategy makers and policy makers planing!

 

[KRAIT]

To be honest not much can be done about this unless Pakistan acquires good governance and attains economic progress for at least a decade. The single factor that is preventing military modernization in the PM is finance, until that important criteria can be met the forces level of progress will remain stagnate, and of course that is no progress at all.

Though, if we are talking about war, there are still operations that can be done to neutralize some of this threat, they will have to be more extreme. Though, I don't have full trust and confidence in the PM leadership's skill, so I cannot give them the benefit of the doubt in war.

Though it is important to remember an attack is not imminent nor more likely to occur because of this procurement.

You are right, unless economic prowess is achieved, its hard to spend more on defense. AWACs and SAM acquisitions will give Pak much needed deterrence.

 

[deckingraj]

thanks to MOD of india for doing this.
beside this pak wasnt going to purchase any arms from france in future.the possible purchase we could do from EU was from Italy(avionics for j-10B-JFT) and IRIS-T WVR from Germany..and i am sure even now we have those option in our hand

We did not do anything to oppose you or suite you...but in turn if our decision has helped you then great...though i fail to join the dots but if you can then good for you...

 

[deckingraj]

1. By above post it looks like PAF can face any force or whole world in defensive mode but that's not the reality.

you are right..but it doesn't also mean that PAF will go down like cake...

2. And for net centric warfare the most important requirement are:

a.) Dedicated communication satellite which PAF don't have IAF will have by 2014.

What will PAf will do if communication is cut off.

b.) Dedicated spy satellite which PAF don't have but IAF have.

3. You are not ignoring:

a.) Dependance on USA for spares etc.

b.) Kill switch in F 16s

c.) Blinding of PAF by USA through denial of GPS as they have done it in Iraq.

2. a) IAF will have it by 2014 but what about today??? Anyways China can pitch in for such help for PAF
b) Again count china in...

3. a) Our war is not going to be months long...Spares can be manged for short term...
b) Only time will tell...b/w if there are kill switch how can count in US for plugging them on behest of India
c) We also have dependency on GPS...Why would US do it selectively for PAF??


Look PAF is a formidable force and we should not make a mistake of under-estimating their resolve and capability...

 

[ManuZ]

Two countries armed with nuclear weapons doesn't have to be bother about anything....
Especially when they are neighbor countries..
Cmon guys J-10b or rafale who gives a damn...

 

[KRAIT]

Two countries armed with nuclear weapons doesn't have to be bother about anything....
Especially when they are neighbor countries..
Cmon guys J-10b or rafale who gives a damn...

In short term-war (couple of weeks atmost) nuclear weapons doesn't matter. Tactical nuclear weapons can make a difference, but won't affect aggressive country to acquire small portion of land.

 

[Bl[i]tZ]

In short term-war (couple of weeks atmost) nuclear weapons doesn't matter. Tactical nuclear weapons can make a difference, but won't affect aggressive country to acquire small portion of land.

I've to go OT but needed to correct this - TACTICAL or STRATEGIC, Indian N doctrine clearly states - any Nuclear, biological or chemical attack on Indian soil or on Indian forces will ensure a massive violent retaliation causing unacceptable damage. Once the N thing starts N doctrine kicks in and all bets are off.