Operation Bluestar-What could have been done?

[LaBong]

Can anyone tell me why a blockade couldn't be enforced? Did they have any secret away to amass resources to temple complex?

 

[third eye]

This is an international forum to discuss matters regarding every and any nation.If you don't like it then you should probably move on.
Note-I did not make any comments as to whether india did the right thing or not.I merely asked if anything could have been done to avoid the situation where lots of people died.You should probably change your outlook!

The army had a lot of Sikh regular soldiers and special force soldiers.They could have sent an Assassin to take him out(Or,they could have paid someone from Akali Dal(who they could buy off to do it).They could have sniped him while he was in the open courtyard infront of the Harmandir Shahib.As far as I am informed(not much) Bhindranwale was not planning any immediate uprising or armed assault of a mass scale of any kind(his followers were killing enemy targets though).Why Indira Gandhi ordered a full scale military assault on them specially when there were a lot of pilgrims(more than usual) in the Harmandir Shahib,I do not understand!

With the benefit of hindsight it is easy to pontificate.

Refer highlighted part above - this is exactly the reason why ppl ought not to speculate. Allow the brains in the Indian establishment back then for doing what it did.

Things are not as simplistic as they are being made out to be.

 

[Anubis]

Can anyone tell me why a blockade couldn't be enforced? Did they have any secret away to amass resources to temple complex?

The temple does have many underground passages.The terrorists used this to fight IA.But during Black Thunder the blockade was successfully enforced!Other then that I do not no why the blockade failed the first time.The original plan to starve them would have been pulled off.

With the benefit of hindsight it is easy to pontificate.

Refer highlighted part above - this is exactly the reason why ppl ought not to speculate. Allow the brains in the Indian establishment back then for doing what it did.

Things are not as simplistic as they are being made out to be.

I got the answer to that query from Mark Tully's article.There was also growing speculation that Indira Gandhi was failing to take action in Punjab.This was also an important reason for the siege!

Edit:Regarding the blockade:It was the martyrdom day of Guru Arjan.More and more pilgrims were coming to the Harmandir Shahib from other places.IA feared(according to Brar) that while encircling Bhindeanwale and Co. they themselves would be encircled by angry pilgrims with spears and guns.That's why they had to take action and could not wait long!

 

[third eye]

I got the answer to that query from Mark Tully's article.There was also growing speculation that Indira Gandhi was failing to take action in Punjab.This was also an important reason for the siege!

See I do not know the age of posters here but those who have lived through that era will vouch that the level of insurrection that had been created from the West was such that things were building up to a boil.

There was also a very possible & live threat of Pak doing a E Bengal on Punjab wherein a small enclave may have been created with Harmandir Sahab in the center and a Khalistan created to avenge BD , with an option of expansion later.If attempted by Pak the IA may have ended up like PA in EP - at least thats what the planners in Pindi & Zia had planned.

Things were building up to a crescendo.

The lady did the right thing which to my mind saved the nation. The hows & whys of the execution can be debated till the cows come home. The key is that she decided & went ahead fully aware of the possible consequences. Later, despite repeated warnings from her own Intel agencies she refused to remove Guards from the Sikh community from her personal staff. She paid the price.

I am no great fan of the lady & find so many things she did to be horribly wrong , the ill effects of which we shall face forever. Yet I respect & admire her decision taking ability - something leaders are expected & we elect them for, this unfortunately is the very thing they do not do.

 

[LaBong]

See I do not know the age of posters here but those who have lived through that era will vouch that the level of insurrection that had been created from the West was such that things were building up to a boil.

There was also a very possible & live threat of Pak doing a E Bengal on Punjab wherein a small enclave may have been created with Harmandir Sahab in the center and a Khalistan created to avenge BD , with an option of expansion later.If attempted by Pak the IA may have ended up like PA in EP - at least thats what the planners in Pindi & Zia had planned.

Things were building up to a crescendo.

The lady did the right thing which to my mind saved the nation. The hows & whys of the execution can be debated till the cows come home. The key is that she decided & went ahead fully aware of the possible consequences. Later, despite repeated warnings from her own Intel agencies she refused to remove Guards from the Sikh community from her personal staff. She paid the price.

I am no great fan of the lady & find so many things she did to be horribly wrong , the ill effects of which we shall face forever. Yet I respect & admire her decision taking ability - something leaders are expected & we elect them for, this unfortunately is the very thing they do not do.

She was our lady with iron balls, only her balls grew too big for the nation itself!

 

[Anubis]

See I do not know the age of posters here but those who have lived through that era will vouch that the level of insurrection that had been created from the West was such that things were building up to a boil.

There was also a very possible & live threat of Pak doing a E Bengal on Punjab wherein a small enclave may have been created with Harmandir Sahab in the center and a Khalistan created to avenge BD. If attempted by Pak the IA may have ended up like PA in EP - at least thats what the planners in Pindi & Zia had planned.

Things were building up to a crescendo.

The lady did the right thing which to my mind saved the nation. The hows & whys of the execution can be debated till the cows come home. The key is that she decided & went ahead fully aware of thepossible consequences. Later, despite repeated warnings from he rown Intel agencies she refused to remove Guards from the sikh community from her personal staff. She paid the price.

I am no great fan of the lady & find so many things she did to be horribly wrong , the ill effects of which we shall face forever. Yet I respect & admire her decision taking ability - something leaders are expected to do& something they do not do.

Damn I forgot that.......I saw a video footage of an interview after the end of the siege of an uniformed officer(possibly Brar himself) saying they had found weapons of Chinese and Pakistani origin used by the Khalistanis in the temple.I think the threat of revenge for EP-BD might not have been just a possibility.She might have had intelligence inform her of such foreign involvement and that might have prompted the decision!

She was our lady with iron balls, only her balls grew too big for the nation itself!

She did go head to head with Nixon and Kissinger!

 

[third eye]

She was our lady with iron balls, only her balls grew too big for the nation itself!

I disagree.

A leaders - PM, Pres, CEO, Manager primary job is to take decisions. He like anyone has to depend upon his / her team for inputs to take decisions. A leader therefore quite often is only as good as his team is.

In her case case sycophants had clouded her POV to suit their own agenda to a point that they destroyed her. The emergency is a case in point as also the elections she lost. The feedback her cronies gave her was self destructive.

Lastly , like all humans she too had a failing - her younger son.

Yet on balance of all the leaders she led the nation through more trying times internationally & led well.

 

[Kaniska]

The purpose of this thread is not to start a flame war!Please refrain from using abusive languages.

Almost all of us know about Operation Bluestar and the Golden Temple conflict of 1984.400-1500 Sikhs died that day.83 soldiers were killed too.It also led to the death of 20,000 people as a result of riots and the assassination of the Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi.

My question what could have been done differently to avoid this much death and enraging the Sikh people?How could the Indian government or the Army carry out the operation or was it a mistake to go after Bhindranwale in the first place?

For those who do not know the following documentary will give you a general idea about the incident!

If your intention is good then of course we will have a fair discussion...

1- Operation Blue star may not be the ideal situation but again, every leader choose to reach to a particular situation differently.
Indira Gandhi was the one of the finest PM of India who always saw issues in a different prism than what is being happening now by Congress today. She is ruthless and get the things done kind of lady.

2- There was terrorist in the campus...There is no denying fact about that.But again, the soldiers who led from the front are also Sikhs only....Pakistan and its proxies tried a lot to turn on the Sikh Separatism...But unfortunately it was failed because Sikh people although being a minority, me and so many Indian consider them more patriotic to them rather than rest of the Indian itself....Sikhs and people are very much integrated to Indian society in both scoial,economic and other aspects too...

3- So in a nutshell, I feel sorry to those sane minded Sikh People who feel hurt because of blue star operation but again, we have to give credit to Mrs Gandhi that due to her, sponsered Sikh militancy was ruthlessly crushed aside by India GOV....

 

[Anubis]

If your intention is good then of course we will have a fair discussion...

1- Operation Blue star may not be the ideal situation but again, every leader choose to reach to a particular situation differently.
Indira Gandhi was the one of the finest PM of India who always saw issues in a different prism than what is being happening now by Congress today. She is ruthless and get the things done kind of lady.

2- There was terrorist in the campus...There is no denying fact about that.But again, the soldiers who led from the front are also Sikhs only....Pakistan and its proxies tried a lot to turn on the Sikh Separatism...But unfortunately it was failed because Sikh people although being a minority, me and so many Indian consider them more patriotic to them rather than rest of the Indian itself....Sikhs and people are very much integrated to Indian society in both scoial,economic and other aspects too...

3- So in a nutshell, I feel sorry to those sane minded Sikh People who feel hurt because of blue star operation but again, we have to give credit to Mrs Gandhi that due to her, sponsered Sikh militancy was ruthlessly crushed aside by India GOV....

I certainly agree with you on Indira Gandhi.Her ruthlessness had a big part to play in my country's creation.I know the execution of the operation didn't go well.But I just wanted to know if others thought(like me) if the Khalistanis(atleast their top leaderships) could be neutralized covertly.
I do not have a record of major trolling or flaming in PDF.My view of Indians and Pakistanis are different from many as I have friends,neighbors and co-workers from both countries.

 

[Aka123]

Damn I forgot that.......I saw a video footage of an interview after the end of the siege of an uniformed officer(possibly Brar himself) saying they had found weapons of Chinese and Pakistani origin used by the Khalistanis in the temple.I think the threat of revenge for EP-BD might not have been just a possibility.She might have had intelligence inform her of such foreign involvement and that might have prompted the decision!



She did go head to head with Nixon and Kissinger!

Right!! She had the balls to face the West...... I am not saying she's a good person.... she was very cunning. But a good and amiable person cannot always be a good ruler. Everyone has ups and downs in life. Her strategy worked well during 1971 but execution went wrong in 1984 (IMO) resulting in killing of innocent people, as I have already said. But she had the courage. Anyways these are completely my own opinion. But frankly I have never seen any other South Asian face the West like her (Below is the video)

I posted this video, for a glimpse of Indira Gandhi's strong character and not to derail this thread towards 71. So please don't go that side.(This I meant for all,specially the trolls seeking a chance to attack the thread and not only for you )

 

[LaBong]

Damn I forgot that.......I saw a video footage of an interview after the end of the siege of an uniformed officer(possibly Brar himself) saying they had found weapons of Chinese and Pakistani origin used by the Khalistanis in the temple.I think the threat of revenge for EP-BD might not have been just a possibility.She might have had intelligence inform her of such foreign involvement and that might have prompted the decision!



She did go head to head with Nixon and Kissinger!

Well the whole East Pakistan thing was her masterpiece, see how she waited patiently till December, slowly building world opinion against Pakistan before engaging militarily and even outmaneuvered one of the finest diplomat of USA by striking a timely deal with USSR.

I think one of the reason of her no nonsense attitude was her father who did lack the pragmatism and cunning of chairman Mao which cost India dearly.

 

[Anubis]

Well the whole East Pakistan thing was her masterpiece, see how she waited patiently till December, slowly building world opinion against Pakistan before engaging militarily and even outmaneuvered one of the finest diplomat of USA by striking a timely deal with USSR.

I think one of the reason of her no nonsense attitude was her father who did lack the pragmatism and cunning of chairman Mao which cost India dearly.

Yep.......she knew Pakistan would make a wrong move and she had to capitalize on that.Besides building world opinion she waited until Pakistan attacked India on 3rd December(She knew they would do it eventually).It actually put the last nail in Pak's coffin as they had no other excuse to blame India as they had literally started the war.

 

[Kaniska]

I certainly agree with you on Indira Gandhi.Her ruthlessness had a big part to play in my country's creation.I know the execution of the operation didn't go well.But I just wanted to know if others thought(like me) if the Khalistanis(atleast their top leaderships) could be neutralized covertly.
I do not have a record of major trolling or flaming in PDF.My view of Indians and Pakistanis are different from many as I have friends,neighbors and co-workers from both countries.

I agree with you. I think you have a blog side and i respect your thoughts..

 

[Bang Galore]

Well the whole East Pakistan thing was her masterpiece, see how she waited patiently till December,

She didn't want to wait. Gen(later Field Marshal) Manekshaw forced her to by saying that he needed time.

 

[Anubis]

She didn't want to wait. Gen(later Field Marshal) Manekshaw forced her to by saying that he needed time.

Gen.Jacob would disagree.....he says it was his idea.