Nothing less than the very best for PAF

[MastanKhan]

The point my dear friend is that respect is very important. After having read your posts I do not consider you any sort of expert yet decided to still interact with you as a professional. Pointed out some flaws in your ridiculous no guns for JF17 theory (wanted you to realize the dynamics of limited airspace over Pakistan where a merge will happen more often then not, same for Israel) and asked you to provide evidence to where you got information regarding conflict between the design team of the F22/F35 and the people that are actually going to use the damn thing and the answer from you was....crickets. Whenever somebody calls you on these hyper self festering feelings about the PAF you have no evidence, you have not served, you have no access to privy strategic information in the PAF and yet you criticize like you are the out going air marshall. You have feelings that you express not facts that are based on budget constraints and global political realities. With your emotional outbursts and cockamamie ideas you have influenced the younger inexperienced minds on this forum into thinking you are some kind of military analyst. You are a day dreamer my friend and worse an angry, disrespectful and rude one at that.It does not matter if I have not had a single post in a 100 years, I basically come here to keep up with new developments especially in the PAF (now that I am far removed) and it does not bother me, somehow you seem to correlate more posts with intelligence and knowledge, more bullshit posts just add to the stink. Like you have been asked a hundred times by many on the forum, be respectful. When somebody challenges you don't waste time trying to first berate them, just give your counter argument. Be nice!

Hi,

I don't consider myself as an expert either---.

This YOU is Pakistan---. Instead of directing your energy on pakistan and writing something---you ar into infighting.

The REASON you don't write---you are scared shi-tless of being criticized---you don't write because you are so afraid that you don't want to be embarrassed sitting alone in front of your table---you don't write---because you don't have the ability or capability to write---.

If you had the ability to write---nothing in this world would stop you from doing that---except for the fear of public humiliation.

Prove me wrong my boy---prove me wrong---.

you will find that the Greeks and Turks managed to crash two F-16s into one another during those years. Does pilot skills come to your mind?

In any case, the whole time I have been telling everyone I have nothing against the M2K, I have just challenged the UAE specific features added. Why do people keep forgetting this all the time?

Hi,

No---you have been lying the whole time----you berrated the M2K9 with some absolutely silly comments---showing that you had absolutely no clue about what you were talking about---.

Now---after being confronted by other members---now you want to wiggle out of the hole that you dug for yourself by saying " I did not say that or I always said that it was a great aircraft "---.

You have no information about the UAE specific features---.

The UAE specific features were the most advanced and most potent features on the M2K9's---which by default put it ahead of any other M2K manufactured and upgraded so far---.

Like the F16 BLK60---it is the most advanced of the F16's overall---in a similar manner---the M2K9 is the most advanced weapons system for the M2K line.

And you are so self centered and thoughtless---that you started arguing about the capabilities without bring out and substantial proof with someone who might be flying this aircraft or something very similar---that is the height of ignorance.

In order for you to challenge a weapons system---you have to have substantial proof about material---performance---or operation---. You have to explain why you stated as such.

Just because your say so has ZILCH value---unless corroborated otherwise thru different sources or thru your CREDENTIALS.

 

[Jammer]

@MastanKhan, dude you are delusional. I'm not the sorry mofo that's in their 50' s making up shit on a forum arguing like an ignoramous. Read my comment you never replied to my questions that I posted regarding your stupid Jf17 without guns post. My style of discussion on this forum is to post in current and possible future affairs based on what I read in the internet or hear from professionals not making up half *** shit that would get you laughed off any serous discussion. Finally if you think I am scared of any discussion then you live in a parellel universe where people are scared of some jack asses written reply. You are thin skinned, a coward and a rude bully, a sad sad person with limited real knowledge but the imagination of a keen 9 year old, some one who would never have the courage to talk the way you talk to people in real life unless they are defenseless and you can prey on them. Still time old man, grow up.

 

[ziaulislam]

Doesn't it depend on requirements and budget? What if they come at a very good price and transfer of infrastructure which won't be needed anymore in the UAE, since they will need a new infra for their new fighter planes? I am just talking about a special fund to procure them if required, since they are very potent fighter planes.. without affecting any other option for new fighters open to Pakistan, be it the J-10 C, the J-31 or even some F-16s to be MLUed..
The countries that need the JF-17 are not necessarily, able to buy or operate the M2K-9 in general, except some GCC members and Egypt. who needs it to replace their light fighters..

too many IF in the that situation, if UAE sell cheap, IF France upgrade cheap, IF this and IF that
and price would be equal to 2 thunders (50 million a piece)if UAE provide them free(just upgrading the process and acquiring weapons).
the only advantage it will have will be slight more range and payload around 20% more(4500 vs 6000) and that is due to overall mirage delta design not the engine. and of course french weapons. a economical good deal would be to acquire two thunders instead of 1 mirage 2000 for which spares will be unavailable in next 5-10 years unless we buy every mirage 2000 around the world and start doing what we did with mirage3/5, the amount of investment required to do so will be enormous at least 200-300 million dollars and would require a lot of help from france

the best case scenario will be that by some miracle UAE give all their birds absolutely free, and french upgrade them at half the price what they did for india(as stutural upgrades will be needed as no upgrades since 2000s) plus weapons =1.0-1.5 billion dollars for 50s for next 20 years(extremely unlikely to happen, still not feasible when compared to used f-16s and even uprated thunder)

the other situation will be UAE provide them free and french allow us to integrate our weapons and we dont opt for much upgrades, in that case it will be useful for just 5-10 years

better option is to get a better engine either rd-93ma/33mk or ws-13 for thunder increasing its load capacity by 10-20% bringing it at par to mirage2000 payload, getting a AESA which shold be available or even french systems and weapons which might be available

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan, dude you are delusional. I'm not the sorry mofo that's in their 50' s making up shit on a forum arguing like an ignoramous. Read my comment you never replied to my questions that I posted regarding your stupid Jf17 without guns post. My style of discussion on this forum is to post in current and possible future affairs based on what I read in the internet or hear from professionals not making up half *** shit that would get you laughed off any serous discussion. Finally if you think I am scared of any discussion then you live in a parellel universe where people are scared of some jack asses written reply. You are thin skinned, a coward and a rude bully, a sad sad person with limited real knowledge but the imagination of a keen 9 year old, some one who would never have the courage to talk the way you talk to people in real life unless they are defenseless and you can prey on them. Still time old man, grow up.

Hi,

This is a pakistan defense board---. I am just a blogger---the enemy is is india---. The issues are afg---US---china---cpec etc---major and small weapons systems---.

Direct your energy and resource towards them---.

Click on my screen name---click on the IGNORE list---you won't see any of my posts---meaning---for your---they don't exist---thus---you will be happy.

 

[Fawad alam]

Please stop fighting each other, we don't know actual facts and figures and what our actual Master minds are planning, so please don't take this seriously.

 

[The SC]

too many IF in the that situation, if UAE sell cheap, IF France upgrade cheap, IF this and IF that
and price would be equal to 2 thunders (50 million a piece)if UAE provide them free(just upgrading the process and acquiring weapons).
the only advantage it will have will be slight more range and payload around 20% more(4500 vs 6000) and that is due to overall mirage delta design not the engine. and of course french weapons. a economical good deal would be to acquire two thunders instead of 1 mirage 2000 for which spares will be unavailable in next 5-10 years unless we buy every mirage 2000 around the world and start doing what we did with mirage3/5, the amount of investment required to do so will be enormous at least 200-300 million dollars and would require a lot of help from france

the best case scenario will be that by some miracle UAE give all their birds absolutely free, and french upgrade them at half the price what they did for india(as stutural upgrades will be needed as no upgrades since 2000s) plus weapons =1.0-1.5 billion dollars for 50s for next 20 years(extremely unlikely to happen, still not feasible when compared to used f-16s and even uprated thunder)

the other situation will be UAE provide them free and french allow us to integrate our weapons and we dont opt for much upgrades, in that case it will be useful for just 5-10 years

better option is to get a better engine either rd-93ma/33mk or ws-13 for thunder increasing its load capacity by 10-20% bringing it at par to mirage2000 payload, getting a AESA which shold be available or even french systems and weapons which might be available

We do agree on the JF-17, it is not the question here.. you got me wrong on the infra, I said UAE won't need it anymore and thus it can be transferred with the planes, France has no say in this.. The price was 20 million a pop not 50 million$. obviously there are some complicated matters concerning spare parts, but as I have stated before UAE usually buys huge quantities of spare parts and weapons.. In my opinion this will be a good -on the side- deal for Pakistan since the M2K-9 in particular has some Rafale tech, regardless of the obvious JF-17 with AESA and advanced EW/CEM suites a new engine is already available and was tested on the J-31 which also is the obvious 5th G --at least stop gap- till Pakistan comes up with its own planned 5th G fighter planes..

Those special funds that you talk bout are lacking in our current economic climate. Look the plane has been out of production for 15 yrs. The spares for it remain a problem and it was never a widely adopted platcorm like the F16s for us to get spares from the black market. @Khafee has repeatedly said the UAE M2K9s are not for sale at least till 2021. The issue is therefore a non starter. So I dont think we should be wasting time on non issues.
A

I have also said that it will take at least 5 years in the other thread, I do agree with you on the hypothetical debate, but the fact is the M2K-9s will become available and there is no sure sight of who is going to get them .. Egypt is a very good candidate, Iraq also might get some, and in case none wants them because they are buying new platforms. There is an opportunity for Pakistan to have some potent fighters for its naval wing.. A hypothesis based on some facts, might be a non issue like you said, or might have a low % of coming through is what has been discussed so far, the context and the possibilities, nothing more..

 

[ziaulislam]

We do agree on the JF-17, it is not the question here.. you got me wrong on the infra, I said UAE won't need it anymore and thus it can be transferred with the planes, France has no say in this.. The price was 20 million a pop not 50 million$. obviously there are some complicated matters concerning spare parts, but as I have stated before UAE usually buys huge quantities of spare parts and weapons.. In my opinion this will be a good -on the side- deal for Pakistan since the M2K-9 in particular has some Rafale tech, regardless of the obvious JF-17 with AESA and advanced EW/CEM suites a new engine is already available and was tested on the J-31 which also is the obvious 5th G --at least stop gap- till Pakistan comes up with its own planned 5th G fighter planes..


I have also said that it will take at least 5 years in the other thread, I do agree with you on the hypothetical debate, but the fact is the M2K-9s will become available and there is no sure sight of who is going to get them then.. Egypt is a very good candidate, Iraq also might get some, and in case none wants them because they are buying new platforms. There is an opportunity for Pakistan to have some potent fighters for its naval wing.. A hypothesis based on some facts, might be a non issue like you said, or might have a low % of coming through is what has been discussed so far, the context and the possibilities, nothing more..

France does has a say though can easily be convinced by UAE or with $$$
weapons are same as Rafale, so you will have to buy your own cant use UAE weapons
first 30 batch which news indicate that UAE might give up have nearly completed its shelve life so WILL require updates
last 30 batch are 20 years old, so may require structural update soon if UAE intends to sell them anytime sooner(extremely unlikely)
in the need cost will be far greater than 20 million probably around 50 million if you include weapons and more if you include updates

only hypothetical scenario is you get them free from UAE and decide to buy weapons and go for basic structural upgrades, the cost of 30-32 UAE+ 12 qatari mirages would than be around 1-1.5 billion dollars with weapons

 

[The SC]

France does has a say though can easily be convinced by UAE or with $$$
weapons are same as Rafale, so you will have to buy your own cant use UAE weapons
first 30 batch which news indicate that UAE might give up have nearly completed its shelve life so WILL require updates
last 30 batch are 20 years old, so may require structural update soon if UAE intends to sell them anytime sooner(extremely unlikely)
in the need cost will be far greater than 20 million probably around 50 million if you include weapons and more if you include updates

only hypothetical scenario is you get them free from UAE and decide to buy weapons and go for basic structural upgrades, the cost of 30-32 UAE+ 12 qatari mirages would than be around 1-1.5 billion dollars with weapons

What will be your take if all in all, not just 42 but 72/74 come in that price range, _maybe up to 2 billion$ with a credit line from KSA or the UAE_ you suggest including weapons and upgrades? will it be a good deal or not? knowing that we are talking in the best case scenario..

 

[ziaulislam]

What will be your take if all in all, not just 42 but 72/74 come in that price range, _maybe up to 2 billion$ with a credit line from KSA or the UAE_ you suggest including weapons and upgrades? will it be a good deal or not? knowing that we are talking in the best case scenario..

UAE, or KSA will only give you credit line if you join Yemeni war
i think the only way its going to work for us is that french are ready to give us complete access to their avionic so we can integrate our weapons for strategic role and if we are able to get them very soon within next few years and if block 3 upgrades is not an evolution like it was for gripen to gripen NG(i.e doesn't include some increase to hard points, engine change to rd 33mk,rd93ma/ws 13) than it would be worth while if cost is less than 2 billion dollars with access to MICA, IRST and newer exocet antiship weapons. i personally think that even we get them free the upgrade cost with weapons and training will cost at least 30-50 million dollars a piece. it will better serve us to make block 3 in line of gripen NG, better range, better engine. even current thunder with AESA, IRST suffice, if in numbers, with some $$ going to either used f-16s or j-xx

i would like sticking to thunder, with grantee parts rather than having same problem as we have with mirage 3/5

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

No---you have been lying the whole time----you berrated the M2K9 with some absolutely silly comments---showing that you had absolutely no clue about what you were talking about---.

Now---after being confronted by other members---now you want to wiggle out of the hole that you dug for yourself by saying " I did not say that or I always said that it was a great aircraft "---.

You have no information about the UAE specific features---.

The UAE specific features were the most advanced and most potent features on the M2K9's---which by default put it ahead of any other M2K manufactured and upgraded so far---.

Like the F16 BLK60---it is the most advanced of the F16's overall---in a similar manner---the M2K9 is the most advanced weapons system for the M2K line.

And you are so self centered and thoughtless---that you started arguing about the capabilities without bring out and substantial proof with someone who might be flying this aircraft or something very similar---that is the height of ignorance.

In order for you to challenge a weapons system---you have to have substantial proof about material---performance---or operation---. You have to explain why you stated as such.

Just because your say so has ZILCH value---unless corroborated otherwise thru different sources or thru your CREDENTIALS.

Can't help you with your comprehension problems dude. I see a lot of wishy washy hand waving claims in what you have written and not much substance. I find it a waste of time to engage you. But like the bully you are, you keep coming back with personal insults and completely fabricated allegations. Now whether you have problem with comprehension, or you don't want to comprehend, I have no idea.

By the way, 90% people on here don't have any 'credentials' on what they write. Yourself included, except when you talk about selling used cars.

 

[MastanKhan]

What will be your take if all in all, not just 42 but 72/74 come in that price range, _maybe up to 2 billion$ with a credit line from KSA or the UAE_ you suggest including weapons and upgrades? will it be a good deal or not? knowing that we are talking in the best case scenario..

Hi,

You should know that in making a deal---it is all about the timing---and what does it bring to the table---meaning what kind of power projection would it give the nation and the Paf---.

Money is secondary---.

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

Because many of them don't want to share their credentials due to reasons of security---and identity---but no one starts a thread by stating that " i don't know much about the topic---but I am going to talk about it "---.

I really want to ask you---how dumb they have to be---how stupid they have to be to start a discussion about major weapons systems by openly admitting that they do not know nothing but they want to direct the orchestra---.

Because, dear Sir, there is nothing wrong about humbleness and humility. People without a service record still deserve respect if they make the effort to learn and try to argue based on evidence. You seem to be completely ignoring the evidences I have put so far.

 

[Khafee]

Hi,

You should know that in making a deal---it is all about the timing---and what does it bring to the table---meaning what kind of power projection would it give the nation and the Paf---.

Money is secondary---.

I'm done talking to clueless armchair generals. Reminds me of something @Indus Falcon said about this forum " these kids can't learn, their egos won't let them"

Superiority complexes, ridiculous presumptions, chacha, mama, nanny based reports = disaster.

Have fun breaking your head.

 

[IHK_PK]

After the new found love/affair of Modi-UAE, India is also a strong candidate of the mirage 2k9's.

Pakistan should forget to have them now.

 

[ali_raza]

I'm done talking to clueless armchair generals. Reminds me of something @Indus Falcon said about this forum " these kids can't learn, their egos won't let them"

Superiority complexes, ridiculous presumptions, chacha, mama, nanny based reports = disaster.

Have fun breaking your head.

keep up the good work dear.people will appreciate you sooner or later.
what important is that u give ur solid points and not leave the field for some amateur to capture