Nothing less than the very best for PAF

[CriticalThought]

Sir, I think it is going to be tough for @CriticalThought to get out of this denial mode he has straight jacketed himself into. Best to leave him be and let him learn the ropes the hard way.

That is my humble opinion.

Denial mode? Dude, look at this quote:

Compared to the Mirage 2000-5 Mk 2, the UAE’s -9 variant incorporates what Dassault coyly refers to as “additional operating capabilities specified by the UAE AF & AD”, and which include enhanced survivability and much-improved long-range stand-off air-to-ground capabilities.

The WoT has highlighted the need for precision air-to-ground capabilities. Long-range precision air-to-ground offense requires some kind of satellite navigation. Would these jets easily inter-operate with Chinese Beido? Without having an answer to this question, the capability is useless.

What is the meaning of 'enhanced survivability'? Survival in the desert is very different to survival at sea, survival at -50 C (Siachen), and survival in mountainous areas. UAE has a one-track environment. Without added detail, there is no way to ascertain the efficacy of this 'added capability'.

Seriously, you are so awed by the name Dassault, you are not willing to challenge what you see. Your mind glosses over details and you are ready to lap up whatever is fed to you.

Try countering me with reasons for a change.

@Khafee

 

[araz]

Doesn't it depend on requirements and budget? What if they come at a very good price and transfer of infrastructure which won't be needed anymore in the UAE, since they will need a new infra for their new fighter planes? I am just talking about a special fund to procure them if required, since they are very potent fighter planes.. without affecting any other option for new fighters open to Pakistan, be it the J-10 C, the J-31 or even some F-16s to be MLUed..
The countries that need the JF-17 are not necessarily, able to buy or operate the M2K-9 in general, except some GCC members and Egypt. who needs it to replace their light fighters..

Those special funds that you talk bout are lacking in our current economic climate. Look the plane has been out of production for 15 yrs. The spares for it remain a problem and it was never a widely adopted platcorm like the F16s for us to get spares from the black market. @Khafee has repeatedly said the UAE M2K9s are not for sale at least till 2021. The issue is therefore a non starter. So I dont think we should be wasting time on non issues.
A

 

[Jammer]

Guys seriously, you should reconsider you approach. It's not working and when he shows you the grim mirror for your own benefit, you guys go into a denial mode without even comprehending what he's revealing ----

Most of the time he acts like the devils advocate to get the truth in all its callousness . And sometimes I literally laugh my *** off at the cluelessness of the "professionals"


In that navy thread noooooone showed the courage to debunk his claims except pulling out straw mans logic and throwing personal insults at him Zindabad zindabad ----- Kashmir bny ka --------- Islam ka qilla --------

I know a "professional" here who was comparing the Battle of Badar with the contemporary and futuristic aerial warfare warfare And was very much contented with it .

At times his one liners contain much appealing substance than the long uppity rhetoric of the "professionals" . Not bragging in anyway but after reading his views, a guy like me who had no idea about about weapons and tactics , could coordinate better than you ------ yeah ! I've learnt how to be a better coordinator ------

P:S I suggest you folks take his verbal spanking in a respectful and friendly way, like that of a teacher . Believe you me you are going to learn tons of things --------- rondo bachay

That made no sense and now it is forever abundantly clear why you are a fan of his. You deserve to follow him around.

 

[aliyusuf]

The WoT has highlighted the need for precision air-to-ground capabilities. Long-range precision air-to-ground offense requires some kind of satellite navigation. Would these jets easily inter-operate with Chinese Beido? Without having an answer to this question, the capability is useless.

The M2K-9 is a very capable platform. It will give us a capability that is comparable to the Block-52 Viper. It has it's own range of armaments that is every bit as effective (even more in cases of anti-ship and Mica) as compared to the armament on the Block-52. Same is the case of the EW suite. Tell me what %age of Chinese equipment interoperability exist with Vipers in the PAF inventory?

But that is a valid point, though. On which, if you see my post on the topic on the other thread ... I am not overly enthusiastic about the prospects that this platform would be inducted into the PAF. Why I think it is a valid point is because we are already facing a situation where we may not be getting any newer version of the missiles and other subsystems regarding the Vipers. I don't know if we would even get another batch of AIM-120C-5 if we asked for it.
Getting Mirage 2000-9 may land us in similar situations in the future. Also, as per @Khafee, these planes may not be available very soon. Maybe in 5 years. Don't know whether that would suit PAF's game plan. Also, without a huge stockpile of spares and armament, upfront, such a deal could be a gamble.

What is the meaning of 'enhanced survivability'? Survival in the desert is very different to survival at sea, survival at -50 C (Siachen), and survival in mountainous areas. UAE has a one-track environment. Without added detail, there is no way to ascertain the efficacy of this 'added capability'.

In my limited knowledge, the term survivability is more to do with combat survivability rather than the environment. This would be a reference to the situational awareness, EW-Suite and countermeasure subsystems. Let me assure you that when these systems were installed on the M2K-9, they were state of the art.

Even today, the backbone of the French Air Force is M2K-5IIs. The Rafales have not attained the numbers necessary to get to that status yet. These Mirages have been upgraded with the latest avionics and sensors over a period time. Mirage has been France's premiere fighter for more than 2 decades. A status the Viper never had all along its service life with US air force. That is why these planes are so good.

 

[WarFariX]

It is about perception of what signals are given to the world where on the one hand you buy a single engined mid weight AC which has stopped being manufactured since 2002 and for which infrastructure will need to be established, while trying to sell your own single engined AC, even though light weight one, to the world which you consider to be as good as the M2Ks at least the mid specked ones. The 16s can be jistified on the basis of existing infrastructure.
A

isnt mirage's role unique in PAF for low altitude CAS ??? now for an instance lets say that today paf says it is buying j10c..so do u think that j10 is the perfect option to replace mirages placed at no8 and 7 sqns given there role of low altitude bombing???

 

[Jammer]

Hi,

Somehow I missed the most important part of your post---. You have not even started yet---9 years on this board and 12 posts a year---. What do you want me to tell you---!

The point my dear friend is that respect is very important. After having read your posts I do not consider you any sort of expert yet decided to still interact with you as a professional. Pointed out some flaws in your ridiculous no guns for JF17 theory (wanted you to realize the dynamics of limited airspace over Pakistan where a merge will happen more often then not, same for Israel) and asked you to provide evidence to where you got information regarding conflict between the design team of the F22/F35 and the people that are actually going to use the damn thing and the answer from you was....crickets. Whenever somebody calls you on these hyper self festering feelings about the PAF you have no evidence, you have not served, you have no access to privy strategic information in the PAF and yet you criticize like you are the out going air marshall. You have feelings that you express not facts that are based on budget constraints and global political realities. With your emotional outbursts and cockamamie ideas you have influenced the younger inexperienced minds on this forum into thinking you are some kind of military analyst. You are a day dreamer my friend and worse an angry, disrespectful and rude one at that.It does not matter if I have not had a single post in a 100 years, I basically come here to keep up with new developments especially in the PAF (now that I am far removed) and it does not bother me, somehow you seem to correlate more posts with intelligence and knowledge, more bullshit posts just add to the stink. Like you have been asked a hundred times by many on the forum, be respectful. When somebody challenges you don't waste time trying to first berate them, just give your counter argument. Be nice!

 

[CriticalThought]

The M2K-9 is a very capable platform. It will give us a capability that is comparable to the Block-52 Viper. It has it's own range of armaments that is every bit as effective (even more in cases of anti-ship and Mica) as compared to the armament on the Block-52. Same is the case of the EW suite. Tell me what %age of Chinese equipment interoperability exist with Vipers in the PAF inventory?

But that is a valid point, though. On which, if you see my post on the topic on the other thread ... I am not overly enthusiastic about the prospects that this platform would be inducted into the PAF. Why I think it is a valid point is because we are already facing a situation where we may not be getting any newer version of the missiles and other subsystems regarding the Vipers. I don't know if we would even get another batch of AIM-120C-5 if we asked for it.
Getting Mirage 2000-9 may land us in similar situations in the future. Also, as per @Khafee, these planes may not be available very soon. Maybe in 5 years. Don't know whether that would suit PAF's game plan. Also, without a huge stockpile of spares and armament, upfront, such a deal could be a gamble.

Correct. My opinion exactly.

In my limited knowledge, the term survivability is more to do with combat survivability rather than the environment. This would be a reference to the situational awareness, EW-Suite and countermeasure subsystems. Let me assure you that when these systems were installed on the M2K-9, they were state of the art.

Even today, the backbone of the French Air Force is M2K-5IIs. The Rafales have not attained the numbers necessary to get to that status yet. These Mirages have been upgraded with the latest avionics and sensors over a period time. Mirage has been France's premiere fighter for more than 2 decades. A status the Viper never had all along its service life with US air force. That is why these planes are so good.

Situational awareness relies on sensor input and different environments require different sensors. The bold is my change below:

http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:463941/FULLTEXT01.pdf

Situation Analysis When a fighter pilot is performing a mission, he needs to be aware of many factors in order to make well-informed decisions, for instance, weather, status of the own aircraft and locations of threats and targets. It is not enough to be aware of the entities in the surroundings, but the pilot also has to interpret how the entities’ actions might impact his goals. In order to do this, it is important that the pilot analyzes the situation and gain situation awareness. Pilots describe that developing and maintaining situation awareness is the most difficult part of their jobs

These 'survivability' features aren't particular to M2K. The F-16 is a cult and is a darling the world over, especially in the USAF. Much love has gone in carefully evolving it over the years. You can rest assured the Yanks have put in some cutting edge features into their beloved aircraft.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/conte.../documents/f16/f16_brochure_a11-34324h001.pdf

Survivability Features. The small visual, IR and RF signatures of the F-16 reduce aircraft detection by the enemy. Modern threat warning systems, expendables and internal electronic warfare systems help avoid the most advanced threats. Superior agility, excellent pilot situational awareness, buried fuel lines and fuel inerting systems combine to reduce the F-16’s vulnerability to attack. Critical systems redundancy and shielding enhance survivability.

How does this measure up against M2K? Only a fighter pilot can tell us who has flown both jets and can give an objective evaluation. Being good enough isn't everything. Is it really better than what we already have? Who knows?

 

[Jammer]

The above read is an excellent example of how this forum should work. Cordial discussions, evidence and links to back an argument or point, every one gains from this discourse. Well done @CriticalThought, @aliyusuf !

 

[aliyusuf]

How does this measure up against M2K? Only a fighter pilot can tell us that who has flown both jets and can give an objective evaluation. Being good enough isn't everything. Is it really better than what we already have? Who knows?

Search the web on the comments of the Hellenic Air Force (Greece) pilots. You might get to know what they think about the M2K and the Viper.

 

[CriticalThought]

Search the web on the comments of the Hellenic Air Force (Greece) pilots. You might get to know what they think about the M2K and the Viper.

Yep, I already quoted that dog fight. I am fully aware how the Greeks downed an F-16. This was back in 1996. One dog fight doesn't prove superiority, although it does give bragging rights. If you look here for example,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Turkey

you will find that the Greeks and Turks managed to crash two F-16s into one another during those years. Does pilot skills come to your mind?

In any case, the whole time I have been telling everyone I have nothing against the M2K, I have just challenged the UAE specific features added. Why do people keep forgetting this all the time?

 

[Mentee]

That made no sense and now it is forever abundantly clear why you are a fan of his. You deserve to follow him around.

Keep your personal grudges aside . Iam open to anything which is rational---- . As of now you haven't put anything on the table except being judgmental. Reveal your findings about the topic and make me your fan , iam all ears .

P.S me not offended a bit mate

 

[aliyusuf]

Yep, I already quoted that dog fight. I am fully aware how the Greeks downed an F-16. This was back in 1996. One dog fight doesn't prove superiority, although it does give bragging rights. If you look here for example,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Turkey

you will find that the Greeks and Turks managed to crash two F-16s into one another during those years. Does pilot skills come to your mind?

In any case, the whole time I have been telling everyone I have nothing against the M2K, I have just challenged the UAE specific features added. Why do people keep forgetting this all the time?

Actually I was referring to what Greek pilots have to say about the M2K and the Viper during their own DACT encounters. They operate both i.e. the Viper and the M2K.

 

[Jammer]

Keep your personal grudges aside . Iam open to anything which is rational---- . As for now you haven't put anything on the table except being judgmental. Reveal your findings about the topic and make me your fan , iam all ears .

P.S me not offended a bit mate

This is not about being a fan, this is about being an adult. These are not personal grudges, this is a reaction to being berated and having to listen to rude comments without much substance. My prerogative, if you don't like it you don't have to get involved or give a lecture, that's the mods job. Again there is no stupid question no stupid answer an interaction take place where every one gains, we don't have to be an absolute pill to put our point across, that's the sign of an insecure person.

 

[Mentee]

This is not about being a fan, this is about being an adult. These are not personal grudges, this is a reaction to being berated and having to listen to rude comments without much substance. My prerogative, if you don't like it you don't have to get involved or give a lecture, that's the mods job. Again there is no stupid question no stupid answer an interaction take place where every one gains, we don't have to be an absolute pill to put our point across, that's the sign of an insecure person.

You don't lock horn with the seniors until you are 101% sure about the answer/solution .

 

[Jammer]

What is this senior junior bullshit! Unless you are in the military this concept applies, however if you are talking to a dude that is not talking about the issue but is disrespectful then one is being a bitch! Quality of your statement and respect for the individual is what gains you respect not how many years one has wa&$ed off on a forum. The gora sahib did a number on us, we are now stuck with this slave mentality where we look to elavate and then worship people for no friggin reason.