Nothing less than the very best for PAF

[Khafee]

After the new found love/affair of Modi-UAE, India is also a strong candidate of the mirage 2k9's.

Pakistan should forget to have them now.

And your speculation is based on..................?

 

[araz]

@MastanKhan, dude you are delusional. I'm not the sorry mofo that's in their 50' s making up shit on a forum arguing like an ignoramous. Read my comment you never replied to my questions that I posted regarding your stupid Jf17 without guns post. My style of discussion on this forum is to post in current and possible future affairs based on what I read in the internet or hear from professionals not making up half *** shit that would get you laughed off any serous discussion. Finally if you think I am scared of any discussion then you live in a parellel universe where people are scared of some jack asses written reply. You are thin skinned, a coward and a rude bully, a sad sad person with limited real knowledge but the imagination of a keen 9 year old, some one who would never have the courage to talk the way you talk to people in real life unless they are defenseless and you can prey on them. Still time old man, grow up.

Sir.
If you disagree move on. There is no point arguing and trading insults. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth of those of us who want to keep things sane. So please desist . MK has a theory and you presented your view points against it like all of us. He responded rudely and you responded back in kind. I ask you what did you gain by this barrage other than raising your blood pressure? REPORT ANY RUDE POST AND let the mods deal with it.
Kindest regards
A

 

[araz]

isnt mirage's role unique in PAF for low altitude CAS ??? now for an instance lets say that today paf says it is buying j10c..so do u think that j10 is the perfect option to replace mirages placed at no8 and 7 sqns given there role of low altitude bombing???

I think if you think the role of M2Ks is specific to a delta, you can and should be able to replace one delta with a Delta Canard. The Delta to the best of my immature knowledge were more suited to supersonic flight which is the high role of the Hi- lo combo. I think a delta Canard on the other hand will take away the limitations of a Pure Delta and be more versatile in the role.The JFT and the F16s are the planes for low and slow maneouvres and therefore more suited to fulfilling the mentioned roles.
The point which I have repeatedly mentioned in this whole debate is these planes will not be for sale till 2021 by which time some of these frames will be 30 plus years old. The french will not allow you to buy them as they have spare M2Ks for sale which you did not buy in 2002. The French are notorious for not maintianing extensive stores for spares and therefore spares are at a premium which is why the M2Ks never got sold widely which in turn means you wont be maintaining them via the black market in case the french refuse to give you spares. So this debate is a nonstarter from my point of view. However, like all posters this remains my opinion so feel free to disagree with it.
A

 

[WarFariX]

I think if you think the role of M2Ks is specific to a delta, you can and should be able to replace one delta with a Delta Canard. The Delta to the best of my immature knowledge were more suited to supersonic flight which is the high role of the Hi- lo combo. I think a delta Canard on the other hand will take away the limitations of a Pure Delta and be more versatile in the role.The JFT and the F16s are the planes for low and slow maneouvres and therefore more suited to fulfilling the mentioned roles.
The point which I have repeatedly mentioned in this whole debate is these planes will not be for sale till 2021 by which time some of these frames will be 30 plus years old. The french will not allow you to buy them as they have spare M2Ks for sale which you did not buy in 2002. The French are notorious for not maintianing extensive stores for spares and therefore spares are at a premium which is why the M2Ks never got sold widely which in turn means you wont be maintaining them via the black market in case the french refuse to give you spares. So this debate is a nonstarter from my point of view. However, like all posters this remains my opinion so feel free to disagree with it.
A

ahan good analysis...meanwhile i wasnt pointing out for m2ks...its a death to paf if we go for which our intelligent officials wont do...somethings r coming..just wait and watch

 

[CriticalThought]

I think if you think the role of M2Ks is specific to a delta, you can and should be able to replace one delta with a Delta Canard. The Delta to the best of my immature knowledge were more suited to supersonic flight which is the high role of the Hi- lo combo. I think a delta Canard on the other hand will take away the limitations of a Pure Delta and be more versatile in the role.The JFT and the F16s are the planes for low and slow maneouvres and therefore more suited to fulfilling the mentioned roles.

Sir, the M2K originally came in two versions per

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/mirage-2000-specs.htm

Mirage 2000-C was an air-superiority fighter whereas Mirage 2000-D had terrain following features. Whether this capability has been introduced to 2K-9, I don't know and Dassault's official page is silent on the matter

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/customer-support/mirage-2000/mirage-2000-9/

Yes, the M2K is very good at high altitude, high speed, but its performance characteristics vary with altitude. The denser air at lower altitudes causes more drag in the wide swept delta wings.

I can't comment on the JF-17 because not much is known about it, but F-16's characteristics depend on which block it belongs to. The latest versions are high powered aircrafts, and are very good at all speeds and altitudes.

ahan good analysis...meanwhile i wasnt pointing out for m2ks...its a death to paf if we go for which our intelligent officials wont do...somethings r coming..just wait and watch

Sir this is wrong. You are teasing us poor souls. I almost wish you hadn't said that, now I won't be able to sleep...

 

[araz]

Sir, the M2K originally came in two versions per

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/mirage-2000-specs.htm

Mirage 2000-C was an air-superiority fighter whereas Mirage 2000-D had terrain following features. Whether this capability has been introduced to 2K-9, I don't know and Dassault's official page is silent on the matter

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/customer-support/mirage-2000/mirage-2000-9/

Yes, the M2K is very good at high altitude, high speed, but its performance characteristics vary with altitude. The denser air at lower altitudes causes more drag in the wide swept delta wings.

I can't comment on the JF-17 because not much is known about it, but F-16's characteristics depend on which block it belongs to. The latest versions are high powered aircrafts, and are very good at all speeds and altitudes.



Sir this is wrong. You are teasing us poor souls. I almost wish you hadn't said that, now I won't be able to sleep...

I merely commented on the broad characteristics of the delta. The latest fighters supplement the deficiencies of the Delta with the Canard which increases the lift of the fighters. If I remember the M2Ks had a fixed canard introduced in some versions to obviate the deficiency.
As to what is coming----- the only logical induction has to be the J31 in the 2023 phase. If we get more 16s that will be a bonus otherwise we will work at improving our homegrown Basanti to give us the best thumka for the money. Our resources are limited and any other purchase will not make any sense with the acquisitions of our neighbours. The rest is just flights of fancy. At least I think so.
A

 

[WarFariX]

I merely commented on the broad characteristics of the delta. The latest fighters supplement the deficiencies of the Delta with the Canard which increases the lift of the fighters. If I remember the M2Ks had a fixed canard introduced in some versions to obviate the deficiency.
As to what is coming----- the only logical induction has to be the J31 in the 2023 phase. If we get more 16s that will be a bonus otherwise we will work at improving our homegrown Basanti to give us the best thumka for the money. Our resources are limited and any other purchase will not make any sense with the acquisitions of our neighbours. The rest is just flights of fancy. At least I think so.
A

ap tension na lo...dekho kia aara hai bass..u will come to know very very soon... ;-)

 

[Fawad alam]

ap tension na lo...dekho kia aara hai bass..u will come to know very very soon... ;-)

Dear, You are increasing curiosity of every body, how the people will relax?

 

[WarFariX]

Dear, You are increasing curiosity of every body, how the people will relax?

ap log bas tasbeehat mein izafa karo..time guzarjata hai jaldi ;-)

 

[Fawad alam]

ap log bas tasbeehat mein izafa karo..time guzarjata hai jaldi ;-)

Chalo saray start hojao,

 

[araz]

ap tension na lo...dekho kia aara hai bass..u will come to know very very soon... ;-)

Beta.
I dont take tension over what I read on the net. I have a view point based on what limited knowledge I have and the assessment I can make based on that. If a surprise comes my way I thank Allah that my country has taken one more step to safeguard itself. So I will wait patiently and see what the tomorrows of the future have to hold in store for our country.
A

 

[gambit]

Actually I was referring to what Greek pilots have to say about the M2K and the Viper during their own DACT encounters. They operate both i.e. the Viper and the M2K.

Not all 'dissimilar air combat training' (DACT) are the same. Since the movie Top Gun insert DACT into popular culture, I will use US as example.

For US, there are two main schools of DACT:

- The US Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Strike_and_Air_Warfare_Center

...And...

- The USAF Weapons School
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF_Weapons_School

Why are there two ? What are their differences, large and small ?

In the old days, each used to have its own 'fighter weapons' training. The US Navy had Top Gun, and the USAF had Fighter Weapons School. Today, both were incorporated into larger tactical combat doctrines and training.

Let us take the MIG-21, for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21

As a fighter, the MIG-21 is still a formidable WVR fighter. It is agile and its small size make it difficult to acquire visual contact, even in WVR engagements.

Here is where the differences in DACT using the MIG-21 comes in...And I will simplify so as not to lose anyone.

If the MIG-21 is employed in an 'untethered' fashion, meaning unrestricted from ground controllers, its agility and small size will make the MIG-21 that formidable dogfighter. This is where Top Gun style DACT focused on.

If the MIG-21 is employed in a 'tethered' fashion, meaning under the commands of ground controlled intercept (GCI) officers, its agility and small size will matter less. This is where the USAF Fighter Weapons School focused on.

- The US Navy is an expeditionary force, meaning its primary missions are away from home waters and often into foreign waters. The theory is that its air combat opponents would be unknown as to individual fighter capabilities and employment style. Therefore, the focus should be on how to maximize the pilot's knowledge of his own fighter regarding facing an unknown combatant. He may fight a MIG-21 on Monday and an Su-27 on Wednesday.

- The US Air Force is more of a strategic projection force, meaning its primary mission is to use air power to destabilize or even destroy a country's resources to wage war, not just to wage an air war. Therefore, the focus should be on how maximize a squadron's total capabilities to fight at all levels, from individual combatants, aka dogfight, all the way to how to bypass opposition air, if necessary, to strike at strategic targets. This is why the USAF have bomber, air refuelers, and cargo pilots training at the Weapons School.

This is why the Navy's Top Gun program lasted only weeks while the Air Force's Fighter Weapons School lasted months.

That is not to say there are no overlap between the two programs. The USAF had the 'Red Eagles' program where Soviet/Russian fighters were flown to provide DACT engagements at the individual combat level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4477th_Test_and_Evaluation_Squadron

And for the US Navy, the incorporation of the Top Gun program into the larger Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center (NSAWC) mean that the Navy recognized the need for a more comprehensive naval air power projection doctrine beyond those individual air combat engagements.

For most of the world's air forces, the Top Gun style of DACT is most appropriate considering that their immediate threats are usually just across the border. Air warfare doctrines differs because of different perceptions on who wants what, whose weaknesses are enduring and therefore most exploitable, whose national resources are located where and therefore how difficult or how easy to attack, and who has more air combatants and what types. Differences in air combatants and capabilities do not make the opposition any less dangerous. If the side with the lesser number of aircrafts is more serious about DACT, this side will have the higher odds of wining the air war.

 

[CriticalThought]

Search the web on the comments of the Hellenic Air Force (Greece) pilots. You might get to know what they think about the M2K and the Viper.

Could you please post a link?

 

[The SC]

UAE, or KSA will only give you credit line if you join Yemeni war
i think the only way its going to work for us is that french are ready to give us complete access to their avionic so we can integrate our weapons for strategic role and if we are able to get them very soon within next few years and if block 3 upgrades is not an evolution like it was for gripen to gripen NG(i.e doesn't include some increase to hard points, engine change to rd 33mk,rd93ma/ws 13) than it would be worth while if cost is less than 2 billion dollars with access to MICA, IRST and newer exocet antiship weapons. i personally think that even we get them free the upgrade cost with weapons and training will cost at least 30-50 million dollars a piece. it will better serve us to make block 3 in line of gripen NG, better range, better engine. even current thunder with AESA, IRST suffice, if in numbers, with some $$ going to either used f-16s or j-xx

i would like sticking to thunder, with grantee parts rather than having same problem as we have with mirage 3/5

Well, the UAE might give a credit line at the appropriate time, because it wants to sell the jets, KSA is a good possibility too, not to forget that Pakistan agreed to participate passively in the Yemeni war in a naval support role, so the financial possibilities are there..

 

[aliyusuf]

Could you please post a link?

Sorry, don't have the link anymore. Somehow lost it when I switched to my current Laptop. You will have to search it.