No honest people in Pakistan

[ashokdeiva]

There is lots of corruption in the west. Its just that the west are sooo suttle. In UK first we had bankers who have been taking the micky and they have got away with it. Then MPs some who have been given prison sentences. Lastly and lately we have the fiasco about news international where newspapers are involved in corrupt and illegal practices including but not limited to bribing the Police. we must solve the problems we have in Pakistan without damning everyone and kicking ourselves for the thefts by zardari, shariff and co. We need to change the system where the parties are feudel based etc. Imran may be able to help but hes not that bright he could have used Musharaf's offer to set up his own network much like shariffs did with Zia.

West has corruption I agree, but they demand a bribe to over power their powers, but in India and Pakistan we have to pay a bribe so as the to make the official do his entitled job. with out a bribe the government employees are not willing to to their job.

 

[lem34]

West has corruption I agree, but they demand a bribe to over power their powers, but in India and Pakistan we have to pay a bribe so as the to make the official do his entitled job. with out a bribe the government employees are not willing to to their job.

I agree but we have to pay both for them to do the job and also as in the west

 

[lem34]

More on western corruption note the likes of Blair he supports zionists and israelis then when blair gets booted out he gets put on the boards of companies which pay him large amounts for short lectures or 1 day a month a million dollars per annum types of jobs its ever so suttle and sophisticated in the west.

 

[B@KH]

The problem in our country is that the basic fabric of the society is destroyed during past 60 years and i only blame military and its agencies responsible for this crime. Lot of good families were corrupted, lot of sincere politicians corrupted and corrupted individuals implanted in every sphere, department and institution of the state. If you are corrupt but loyal to the establishment you are more holy and respectable.

running a state or government is not a job of street person. highly esteemed capabilities are required for this post that has to look after the state affairs and its people and surroundings.

Our country is now divided into several groups i.e. industrialists, landlords, mullahs, street elements.

1. industrialists : they are always puppets of establishment or the mafias otherwise their industry collapse. establishment and mafias are happy with them most of the times.
2. land lords : they do not surrender to miltiary establishement and hence under their rule the nation is always under problem and decline. they mostly are the target of the conspiracies by the establishment. none of the department work smoothly instead all departments insult people.
3. mullahs : JUI, JUP, Jafria : Establishment do not trust them. they too like landlords are much insulted element of society.
4. other cheap elements like MQM, JI, PTI, Taliban etc. these are all established and manipulated by the establishment. they dance to the tune of establishment and mafias. Interestingly in this section, anyone can become a politician and a leader provided he is obedient to establishment and mafias and trusted by them.

If our people opt for item 4, them they should be prepare and ready their generations to face like the fate of soviet union.
If our people opt for 1, then they can have better life but not independence and self sufficiency.
If our people opt for 2 or 3, then their is hope but it is a very tough and rough route.

 

[bubble123]

Give it a rest

Unfortunately that's the problem with secular Muslims they look for solutions all over the world when the solution is in front of them.

Violence begets Violence.That's all i have to say.

Maybe bubble means to say we need a new prophet -- after all, since the prophet is long dead

Sir, you should be a little careful with your wording. Prophet Hood ended long ago. One should limit sarcasm to the point of not offending anyone.

 

[muse]

Bubble

You can be offended all you like - it seems that's what you want so go ahead, be offended.

A new prophet may be exactly what Pakistan need - ideology has to be fought with ideology -- I hope you not take that as offensive - but if you do - oh, well.

 

[lem34]

Unfortunately that's the problem with secular Muslims they look for solutions all over the world when the solution is in front of them.

I am a muslim. It is not for you to judge me as secular or not. Thats half of the problem of so called self appointed defenders of our religion.

Take a leaf out of the jews. I have found in the west they treat all the jews the same. In the west some eat ham others do not but they all call themselves jews and I have not seen them judge each others. But some of ours get excitable if a girl wears jeans or class others who dont have beards as enemies of islam. some even try to put limits on the lenght of beards,

It is not for us to judge each other that God will do.

 

[muse]

Go read the "Israel betrayed" thread -- jews were toild by some Rabbi the solution was in front of their eyes -- anyways, coming on this forum promoting shariah or fundamentalist islam - I think that's just asking for trouble

 

[VelocuR]

Yeah people saying we are honest people only in talks but real in action always dishonesty.

What we don't see here is US and worldwide completely nailed Pakistan as a permanent dishonest and double countryafter OBL raid near Islamabad shelters. Whatever I explained to them, they don't believe us what I honest explanation. Nothing improvements last sixty years as we continue to follow same habits in systems.

 

[lem34]

Yeah people saying we are honest people only in talks but real in action always dishonesty.

What we don't see here is US and worldwide completely nailed Pakistan as a permanent dishonest and double countryafter OBL raid near Islamabad shelters. Whatever I explained to them, they don't believe us what I honest explanation. Nothing improvements last sixty years as we continue to follow same habits in systems.

American government is the biggest liar inthe world

 

[Elmo]

Elmo
What if any, relationship do you think, exists between the wide scale corruption at all levels in Pakistani society, and the overt enforced religiosity so evident in Pakistani society?

Honesty - what is honesty for you? Are you honest? I want you to think about that answer a couple of time...

Muse, I am going to call you out on this one.

You think the overt enforced religiosity in any way has every single thing to do with corruption. I disagree. Religion cannot be blamed for every single bane of Pakistan's existence.

I am not going to go into the nitty-gritties but you know what I am talking about here: when a bunch of educated men are willing to bend backwards, make adjustments by changing rules and regulations because they are too lazy or just dont have the courage to take the lead - well, i think the rest of the population can be spared from this whole religion-dishonesty-corruption link.

They - religious or areligious - are all the same. And you too are no different.

It's those little things that make a difference: you stick to rules, you change them once, you change them again and again, and then people think it's alright, it's all for the greater good or may be for one's good only, the small offence becomes a big offence, and then it's corruption.

For me corruption is not only monetary or worldy gains, it can be as trivial as corruption of thoughts.

But yeah, what do you say now?

 

[unicorn]

^^
This problem of his which you are highlighting is embedded and is by design.That is the only conclusion I have drawn out after discussing with him certain things.But you can have your chance you go on and try to break the wall, but let me tell you this you will be disappointed in the end.

 

[Juice]

Unfortunately that's the problem with secular Muslims they look for solutions all over the world when the solution is in front of them.

Violence begets Violence.That's all i have to say.


.


Sir, you should be a little careful with your wording. Prophet Hood ended long ago. One should limit sarcasm to the point of not offending anyone.

Perhaps in your religion prophethood ended long ago. That doesn't apply to everyone and you need to learn this. Case in point, in my beliefs, there was never prophethood

 

[VCheng]

.......

They - religious or areligious - are all the same. And you too are no different.

It's those little things that make a difference: you stick to rules, you change them once, you change them again and again, and then people think it's alright, it's all for the greater good or may be for one's good only, the small offence becomes a big offence, and then it's corruption.
.................

Exactly correct.

NO religion or society has a claim to piety, or honesty, or any other similar human trait.

What matters is the rule of law, applied equally and consistently. That makes all the difference in the overall functioning and productivity of human society.

 

[muse]

Honesty - what is honesty for you? Are you honest? I want you to think about that answer a couple of time...

Muse, I am going to call you out on this one.

You think the overt enforced religiosity in any way has every single thing to do with corruption. I disagree. Religion cannot be blamed for every single bane of Pakistan's existence.

I am not going to go into the nitty-gritties but you know what I am talking about here: when a bunch of educated men are willing to bend backwards, make adjustments by changing rules and regulations because they are too lazy or just dont have the courage to take the lead - well, i think the rest of the population can be spared from this whole religion-dishonesty-corruption link.

They - religious or areligious - are all the same. And you too are no different.

It's those little things that make a difference: you stick to rules, you change them once, you change them again and again, and then people think it's alright, it's all for the greater good or may be for one's good only, the small offence becomes a big offence, and then it's corruption.

For me corruption is not only monetary or worldy gains, it can be as trivial as corruption of thoughts.

But yeah, what do you say now?

Super post Elmo, but I asked whether you thought there was any relationship, you now argue that there is not one in every instance - is this an honest response??

Overt enforced religiosity always, without exception results in hypocrisy, because it is coerced -- Zakat is a personal obligation of faithful Muslims, when the state began to deduct it as taxes, the number of those who identified themselves as Shi'ah Muslims and therefore safe from this tax, increased - with overt religiosity, increasing numbers of women seeking a divorce, identified themselves as Christian, and therefore safe from the fundamentalist and ignornant understandings of the favored ulema.

For me corruption is not only monetary or worldy gains, it can be as trivial as corruption of thoughts.

And this is exactly what I have outlined above -- a niece wears hijab because if she did not the islamist have threatened rape.

And of course you know the situation with bigamy, now the seeming norm in Pakistan - once it was not only against the law but a despised anachronism.

You seem to not follow the "enforced" bit of my question - because had you considered the coercion involved, you may have had a more difficult time concluding that the enforced religiosity is the same as as experiential, or practical or gnostic.