Nationalism as opposed to Religion?

[RuheTag]

Extremism in anything is harmful and can be dangerous.

Nationalism more than a certain level becomes dumbness and so is the religion. Everything needs a balance. And that's where it comes intelligence and grooming to achieve the right balance.

 

[CometMibro]

Extremism in anything is harmful and can be dangerous.

Nationalism more than a certain level becomes dumbness and so is the religion. Everything needs a balance. And that's where it comes intelligence and grooming to achieve the right balance.

Won't nationalism be redundant under a religious state?

Lets give an example of Pakistan. Most people are Muslim. If people stopped being nationalistic and were more religious they would still support Pakistan (since its a Muslim state) but with an added factor of Godwariness (and hence treating others well), being upright in character, giving much charity, etc?

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

I have never understood why Pakistanis are more susceptible to this "disease" as opposed to Muslims living elsewhere? Is it because they were the only Muslim state created because of religion...?

yes any problem with that

 

[Skies]

if you are believer of Islam, then sure, yes, Islam opposes Nationalism. But if your Nationalism is based on Religion, then no one would oppose to each other/

 

[RuheTag]

Won't nationalism be redundant under a religious state?

Lets give an example of Pakistan. Most people are Muslim. If people stopped being nationalistic and were more religious they would still support Pakistan (since its a Muslim state) but with an added factor of Godwariness (and hence treating others well), being upright in character, giving much charity, etc?

I hope I can articulate properly here.

Usually nationalism is not redundant in a state with religious people. It can be redundant if an alternate is being projected or enforced. e.g. Islamism can be used to shun off nationalism. And that's exactly what Al-Qaida does. i.e. All muslims belong to one nation and they do not believe in borders and want to bring all muslims under one caliphate - the emphasis to use violence indiscriminately to achieve that objective is what make them terrorists in the eyes of majority of world -- but other than that they are simple Islamists.

If nationalism is taken out from Pakistan (or any other state) then that country can hardly survive. thinking of people living in Pakistan as nation and willing to serve for it, not only in social welfare but also to defend it.

TTP or other Islamists don't believe in Pakistan actually, they think this nationalism theory and this country created on that is invention of the English,,, its westernized founder, hence an evil thing.

Pakistani soldiers fighting other Muslims terrorists or fighting Muslims in Indian army need a motivation to fight those enemies and that motivation is to defend their country i.e. nationalism. If they were thinking all muslims equally, why would they want to fight TTP,, and would rather accept authority of TTP.

as said Pakistanis are confused in nationalism and religion. When India would attack Pakistan,, dropping bombs even in a deserted empty land near Lahore causing no casuality, whole country's nationalism would wake up (And that behavior is justified).. but if it is Islamists that killed 50,000 Pakistanis,, they would still be looking any excuses in not believing that the killers are also Muslims and if they could be treated as enemies, despite the fact that their leadership is from middleast (and here is where the problem arises).

 

[Kompromat]

Nationalism in a world where we 'know' that everyone of us came from the 'same' DNA source?

 

[CometMibro]

I hope I can articulate properly here.

Usually nationalism is not redundant in a state with religious people. It can be redundant if an alternate is being projected or enforced. e.g. Islamism can be used to shun off nationalism. And that's exactly what Al-Qaida does. i.e. All muslims belong to one nation and they do not believe in borders and want to bring all muslims under one caliphate - the emphasis to use violence indiscriminately to achieve that objective is what make them terrorists in the eyes of majority of world -- but other than that they are simple Islamists.

If nationalism is taken out from Pakistan (or any other state) then that country can hardly survive. thinking of people living in Pakistan as nation and willing to serve for it, not only in social welfare but also to defend it.

TTP or other Islamists don't believe in Pakistan actually, they think this nationalism theory and this country created on that is invention of the English,,, its westernized founder, hence an evil thing.

Pakistani soldiers fighting other Muslims terrorists or fighting Muslims in Indian army need a motivation to fight those enemies and that motivation is to defend their country. If they were thinking all muslims equally, why would they want to fight TTP,, and would rather accept authority of TTP.

I do agree with your views.

However, for the sake of our hindu readers here-

An Islamic state is run by scholars, not some uneducated barbarians. Half our problems start with people with no education in the deen giving out fatwas (when they aren't authorized to do so)

So I do agree here:

- Fight terrorists who call themselves Muslim (though we need to look at their motives: They're uneducated barbarians, but they want an Islamic state- if we can provide that will they stop?)

- Fight Muslims in the indian army (people who fight with the disbelievers against the Muslims are not considered Muslim)

Better to unite under the word "Pakistan" than some extremist organization who follows Islam worse than secular leadership.

 

[bronxbull]

primary allegiance to the country does not mean that Muslims will follow Hindu dictation wrg to the faith.

also when hindus do keep faith above the country then why you guys are asking Muslims to prove their nationalism by doing away with their faith.

Muslims can do everything theyw ant,Azaan/Namaaz/Qurbani/ etc etc,the shia procession on Muharram and anything but they have to adjust with things.

Hindu processions ll go through their street,beef wont be allowed etc.

Thats it,not a big deal.

 

[RuheTag]

Fight terrorists who call themselves Muslim (though we need to look at their motives: They're uneducated barbarians, but they want an Islamic state- if we can provide that will they stop?)

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/261715-nationalism-opposed-religion-7.html#ixzz2XtaehgCO

They will not stop. They are after the power and with that to enforce what they think is right. And that's actually some thousand year old values and culture and the way to run the country. TTP would be imposing worse theocracy than the Taliban did in Afghanistan.

 

[Juice]

Nationalism in today form is far bigger problem than in those days

It was worse in the 1800's....still an issue.Old school nationalism is on it way out....but Islam combines religion and nationalism (in the old sense)....so is an issue.

 

[CometMibro]

as said Pakistanis are confused in nationalism and religion. When India would attack Pakistan,, dropping bombs even in a deserted empty land near Lahore causing no casuality, whole country's nationalism would wake up (And that behavior is justified).. but if it is Islamists that killed 50,000 Pakistanis,, they would still be looking any excuses in not believing that the killers are also Muslims and if they could be treated as enemies, despite the fact that their leadership is from middleast (and here is where the problem arises).

I think the government is just not proactive enough in quelling this. Again, I am basically an outsider to Pakistan, so I can't speak pretending I understand what is going on. Does the average Muslim over there think the TTP is working in the name of Islam?

It was worse in the 1800's....still an issue.Old school nationalism is on it way out....but Islam combines religion and nationalism (in the old sense)....so is an issue.

Issue in what sense? I'm guessing you mean an issue for non-muslim or secular countries with a significant population of Muslims?

 

[Juice]

seriously? lol
do you really believe that?
for me my religion is first before my nation, becuase i believe it to be true so obviously i would put god before pakistan.

Modern "nationalism" didn't exist til fairly recently....tribalism and personal or clan loyalties trumped them back in the day....one reason for janissaries and mamelukes etc.

 

[truthseer]

I'd rather be a Muslim born somewhere else than a non-Muslim Pakistani. One might give you happiness here, the other gives you Heaven.

Ram Singh lovers are here.....

 

[somebozo]

It was worse in the 1800's....still an issue.Old school nationalism is on it way out....but Islam combines religion and nationalism (in the old sense)....so is an issue.

Islam is about replacing nationalism with Arab imperialism. You are demanded to obey an Arab prophet, follow and arab way of life, adopt arab customs and traditions, pray in direction of arabia..Islam replaces nationalism with Arab imperialism..

 

[RuheTag]

I think the government is just not proactive enough in quelling this. Again, I am basically an outsider to Pakistan, so I can't speak pretending I understand what is going on. Does the average Muslim over there think the TTP is working in the name of Islam?

Majority there is confused because of the confusion created by right wing media and propaganda of politicians to divert attention from their inability.

Some would think them as agents of CIA, RAW, Israel. Many would think them as of Mujahideen fighting for Islam. Some do understand they are a lethal enemy right that is bent on destroying Pakistan.

But yes, it is inability of Govt to take decisive action against them. But they prefer not to take any risks. ANP in KPK took that risk and they losts dozens of their leaders. They cannot go to Peshawar now openly --- because the federal govt didn't quelled TTP well from other areas.