Muslim first or Pakistani ?

[dabong1]

Muslim first,then british,pakistani,kashmiri,european,asian

 

[Ababeel]

"La sharqiya La gharbia, Islamia Islamia"

 

[araz]

"La sharqiya La gharbia, Islamia Islamia"

Adux
My friend there are two ways to analyse this situation. If you dont want to involve religion in this debate then your answer is the right one. However where Islam is involved, because it is a complete way of life,your answer has to be a muslim first and LAST. I am afraid people dont realize this fact that in many ways Islam and perhaps Judaism(wont bet on this one as dont have enough knowledge of the latter) are the only two complete ways of life sent down to govern a race/followers of a religion. In their makeup, they are different from all other religions.
So in essence, you have to decide whether you want to include Islam in this debate or not. If you dont you have a choice to be whatever you want, but if you include Islam, then there is no choice in my humble opinion.

Enjoy
Araz

 

[foxhound]

Definately Muslim first.......then whatever nationality etc.

When we will die the angels of death (on interrogation in the grave.....please see relevant hadith) will not be asking whether you are an American/French/Indian/saudi or a Pakistani....they will ask whether you are a person who has submitted to the will of God (i.e Islam). certain questions would be asked and if answered incorrectly will deem your fate.

Remember, we are all the children of Adam (as).....all one race...it is the devil (the initiator of various false worships) that has caused division within this one nation.....therefore I reiterate...a Muslim first!

 

[Chrome9]

Simple Muslim first. But Nationality comes a close second and People should be proud of belonging to a muslim country.
I think due to this being a defence forum naturally the members here will be more nationalistic than the average citizen.
As Araz also mentioned Islam is the complete way of life, the teachings range from the guidelines on how to rule and punishments for certain crimes to the treatment of slaves and prisoners of war. There are guidelines on how to drink and and how to enter the toilet, Amongst many other things. Now going back to The concept of the mix of Islam and state, I think it is definately achievable. The Quran and sunnat do give specific guidelines on how to rule, there is a very complex system of laws ranging from the inheritance to murder. Isam pretty much gives all one needs to run a country. Now It's not Islam that's causing Muslim nations to fail if we look back to History the Caliphs and early Muslims followed a strict form of Islamic jurisprudence and were very successful civilisation. What is happening now is leadership in Islamic countries have chosen not to adopt a strict Sharia code maybe because they feel it's out dated. And Those countries that do follow the code are not implemented properly. Some people give the example of Saudi Arabia as an oppressive country. No doubt non-muslims will feel this as they are used to lots and some times vulgur freedomes. But what is very legitimate allegations are that there is extreme persuite of some areas which makes a non-existant private life of an average person whilst the highest authorities are enagaging in extreme bad acts.
What one must remember is Islam is a very flexible religions, the general motto is if it isn't forbidden then anything goes. Therefore modern Sharia courts are possible as long as they are flexible and more intune with modern times.
Nonetheless everyone who is living in a muslim country should be proud that they are free to practice their religion.

 

[Adux]

Definately Muslim first.......then whatever nationality etc.

When we will die the angels of death (on interrogation in the grave.....please see relevant hadith) will not be asking whether you are an American/French/Indian/saudi or a Pakistani....they will ask whether you are a person who has submitted to the will of God (i.e Islam). certain questions would be asked and if answered incorrectly will deem your fate.

Remember, we are all the children of Adam (as).....all one race...it is the devil (the initiator of various false worships) that has caused division within this one nation.....therefore I reiterate...a Muslim first!

Funny, Every religion says this same thing about the other!!!!!!

 

[KashifAsrar]

Simple Muslim first. But Nationality comes a close second and People should be proud of belonging to a muslim country.
I think due to this being a defence forum naturally the members here will be more nationalistic than the average citizen.
As Araz also mentioned Islam is the complete way of life, the teachings range from the guidelines on how to rule and punishments for certain crimes to the treatment of slaves and prisoners of war. There are guidelines on how to drink and and how to enter the toilet, Amongst many other things. Now going back to The concept of the mix of Islam and state, I think it is definately achievable. The Quran and sunnat do give specific guidelines on how to rule, there is a very complex system of laws ranging from the inheritance to murder. Isam pretty much gives all one needs to run a country. Now It's not Islam that's causing Muslim nations to fail if we look back to History the Caliphs and early Muslims followed a strict form of Islamic jurisprudence and were very successful civilisation. What is happening now is leadership in Islamic countries have chosen not to adopt a strict Sharia code maybe because they feel it's out dated. And Those countries that do follow the code are not implemented properly. Some people give the example of Saudi Arabia as an oppressive country. No doubt non-muslims will feel this as they are used to lots and some times vulgur freedomes. But what is very legitimate allegations are that there is extreme persuite of some areas which makes a non-existant private life of an average person whilst the highest authorities are enagaging in extreme bad acts.
What one must remember is Islam is a very flexible religions, the general motto is if it isn't forbidden then anything goes. Therefore modern Sharia courts are possible as long as they are flexible and more intune with modern times.
Nonetheless everyone who is living in a muslim country should be proud that they are free to practice their religion.

Islam is a complete form of life. I agree.
The problem of Muslims and Islam is not religion or bad leadership. Religion is as pure as ever. Leadership is the by product of how our society is progressing.
See: There is a stream of Islam called 'IJTEHAAD'. It mean understanding and formulating the new/old SHARIA laws (if poossible then introducing/modifying the laws), if there is no clear guidance available in SHARIYAT of that time, strictly according to QURAN and HADITH. And if it (the solution) is not present in either QURAN or HADITH then use the brains to get the best poosible answer, that is more close to QURAN and HADEETH.

This has become a rare commodity in Islamic circles now a days. Since last 500-600 years, men and civilization are evolving every where around the world including muslim world, but this evolvement and change was not 'DEFINED' or 'UNDERSTOOD' as it should have been in the presence of 'IJTEHAAD'. This left a huge gap between OUR TIMES and THIER (KHILAFA'T) TIMES. This must be understood clearly.

As your observation are, I agree with them.

Kashif

 

[Chrome9]

This has become a rare commodity in Islamic circles now a days. Since last 500-600 years, men and civilization are evolving every where around the world including muslim world, but this evolvement and change was not 'DEFINED' or 'UNDERSTOOD' as it should have been in the presence of 'IJTEHAAD'. This left a huge gap between OUR TIMES and THIER (KHILAFA'T) TIMES. This must be understood clearly.

As your observation are, I agree with them.

Kashif

The thing about this new change is a successful progression will require unity and participation of all schools of Islam under a credible leadership. Now if the leadership is not credble then there is chance of agenda driven campain or rejection of change due to non-credibility. What has to happen is whatever changes are bought to the modern sharia must be agreed by all parties and implemented in the same way otherwise the gap of non-unity will expand even more.

Leadership is the by product of how our society is progressing

Interesting qoute..

 

[KashifAsrar]

The thing about this new change is a successful progression will require unity and participation of all schools of Islam under a credible leadership. Now if the leadership is not credble then there is chance of agenda driven campain or rejection of change due to non-credibility. What has to happen is whatever changes are bought to the modern sharia must be agreed by all parties and implemented in the same way otherwise the gap of non-unity will expand even more.

Interesting qoute..

Look leadership is brought from the people themselves. If the people are themselves confused, to say least, about realtion between modern world and religous ethics they have followed for centruies, then this is bound to create a flawed leadership. The leadership and orthodoxy would be at odds. Religous people would be interpreting the situations according to (say) 1400 years ago, while leadership would be trying to convince the masses by standard of 21st century-- (which is actually) minus religous angle.

What my suggestions would be ---
Identify the different issues bothering the Muslim UMMAH first. Then call the muslim experts from relevant fields such as Quran, Sunnah, Fiqah, Education, politics, economics, social and so on. CLOSE them in a room and tell them they CAN NOT LEAVE untill they come up with a unanimous soultion for the said issue. Do not let them go untill they give a discision that is favoured by (say) 80% of the participants. Implement there verdict through out the country honestly. After that if any body, outside this group, opposes this discision, he/she should be deported to HIMALYA!

Kashif

 

[blitz]

KashifAsrar, since you are an Indian Muslim, i would also like to know your opinion on this question.

Thanks

 

[KashifAsrar]

Blitz,
When I was born I was born an Indian. When I was born I was born (Alhamdu-lil-allah) to a muslim family. Period.
I hear AZZAN as first sound to my ears, not a national anthem!
Now deciding which one get the precedence over the other. To me whenever there is a compulsion to choose between country and religion, I will opt for the later. ALWAYS. Whenever my survival and responsibilites as a civillian come in to picture, I would like to be addressed and accountable as INDIAN.

People might jump from there chairs on this. Let them!

I know what my priorities are and when and where I need to draw a line between my nationality and religion.

Kashif

 

[Adux]

Thats all very lovey and dovey,

So let me see, If a muslim country attacks India , or India has to attack a muslim country, my friend over here wont support the nation. While Pakistani muslim goes by honour, courage and country" The Kashif above goes by honour, courage and Ummah. To hell with India.

Please correct me, if I am wrong cuz I just got off my chair


Me personally, if my nation needs me I dont care who is attacking, even if they are my own brethern irrespective of religion, race,creed, caste, blood-relations. I will defend my nation and for me there is no two ways about it. For me India is for Indians of all walks of life irrespective of their differneces whatever it maybe

 

[dabong1]

KashifAsrar, since you are an Indian Muslim, i would also like to know your opinion on this question.

Thanks

On what question?

 

[KashifAsrar]

Thats all very lovey and dovey,

So let me see, If a muslim country attacks India , or India has to attack a muslim country, my friend over here wont support the nation. While Pakistani muslim goes by honour, courage and country" The Kashif above goes by honour, courage and Ummah.


Me personally, if my nation needs me I dont care who is attacking, even if they are my own brethern irrespective of religion, race,creed, caste, blood-relations. I will defend my nation and for me there is no two ways about it. For me India is for Indians of all walks of life irrespective of their differneces whatever it maybe

Your cheap mentality is full display. Let me roll over my trouser sleeves. I have to come down to $hit you are in.

Where my answer carry that I would not fight the muslim aggressor coming against my country? By the way, same UMMAH and its follower like me, rescued this great country from hell so many times! Read history well.

To hell with India.

'TO HELL WITH YOUR CHEAP MENTALITY AND APPROACH'!

Please correct me, if I am wrong cuz I just got off my chair

How many time would slip from this chair?

How many times have you faced an Indian enemy on the front? Do you have any record for your patriotism.

Allegations, cheap personal attacks, ranting, this is all that one can identify you.
It look that you will always keep your identity intact!

Kashif

 

[blitz]

Kashif, thanks for the reply. I know it must be a sensitive topic for you, since you are in a delicate position. You have neither the luxury of us Hindu Indians, nor Muslim Pakistanis, to make grandiose statements like Adux[although i respect his point of view too]. Perhaps only other religious minorities in other countries, like a Hindu in Pakistan, Jew in Germany, Christian in Saudi Arabia etc etc can understand your anguish when loyalty of you lot is questioned.

I grew up with muslims and christians and hindus, alike. I have celebrated both 'Ede' and 'Christmas' when i was young. But unfortunately i never got a chance to ask my friends these questions. Partly because i did not want to make them uncomfortable, and partly because i was too immature, or might i say lucky, to let these things bother me.

I have so many questions, from so many people, including you. But i do not think this is the right place to ask them. Infact i do not even know how to phrase my questions clearly, under the circumstances.

Anyways, thanks still.