MRCA ::: India May Cancel Fighter Competition

[Black Widow]

Hi, you obviously support the Mig 35 from a Russian point of view, but you have to look at it from an Indian point of view to see if it's useful for Indian forces or not.
IN (not IAF) wasn't that impressed by the Mig 29K, they simply had no other option than buying it, because the Gorshkov deal was a combined deal with 16 fighters. For IAC1 they could have gone for another fighter, but that would had increased logistics and maintenance, since they already planned with N-LCA and Mig 29k for the first 2 carriers. That's why the additional order of 29 Migs was a logical step, while the chances are high that the Mig will be rejected by IN for IAC 2, in favour for western fighters.
For IAF the Mig 35 was a no go from the start, the bad experience with Mig fighter quality and after sale support, the overdependence on Russian arms in general, which made Indian forces vulnerable for constant cost increasings, the lack of capability compared to the other contenders or even the fact that not even Russian air force wanted to buy (just like no export customer has interest) it for a long time, made the Mig a bad choice for India.
Not to forget that the fighter is still in prototype stage only, all "Mig 35s" we saw so far, are just older airframes (Mig 29M2, Mig 29K/KUB) with some new techs integrated, so basically demonstrators. The final Mig 35 version with bigger wings for more fuel and weaponstations does not exist yet. Just like the radar is not ready and availabe in time, there are still weight issues with the Zhuk AE and 2013 was stated a while back, since then nothing new was reported and without credible funding Phazotron will have difficulties anyway.
The list of disadvantages for India by choosing the Mig is very long and that's why it wasn't surprising that it was rejected. The unit cost might be cheap and the pilot training is easy, but then we have higher maintenance costs, less capable engines (reportedly a point where IAF had issues) avionics and weapons compared to what the western vendors had on offer. And if all this would not be enough, Russian industry can't offer us more on the industrial side either. We already have the best techs and weapons from your country (which is a good thing), but we were searching for other alternatives, better ToT and more industrial benefits. Here again the western (Europeans) countries offered the clearly more interesting things for India.

If we wanted the cheapest fighter (overall costs) we would have selected the Gripen.
If we wanted the best political advantages we would have selected the F18SH.
If we wanted the best industrial package we might select the EF.
If we wanted the best fighter (for our forces) we might select the Rafale.

Only "Sancho" can post such beautiful thread. I never miss ImranKhan,Somnath,Jagjitnatt,ptmn3(The Russian Guy),Gambit and few other's posts. You guys are gems of PDF...

Though he is biggest troll in LCA sticky thread...

 

[Hulk]

Discussing hypothetical scenario, looks like we do not have much news.

 

[Project 627]

Hi, you obviously support the Mig 35 from a Russian point of view, but you have to look at it from an Indian point of view to see if it's useful for Indian forces or not.
IN (not IAF) wasn't that impressed by the Mig 29K, they simply had no other option than buying it, because the Gorshkov deal was a combined deal with 16 fighters. For IAC1 they could have gone for another fighter, but that would had increased logistics and maintenance, since they already planned with N-LCA and Mig 29k for the first 2 carriers. That's why the additional order of 29 Migs was a logical step, while the chances are high that the Mig will be rejected by IN for IAC 2, in favour for western fighters.
For IAF the Mig 35 was a no go from the start, the bad experience with Mig fighter quality and after sale support, the overdependence on Russian arms in general, which made Indian forces vulnerable for constant cost increasings, the lack of capability compared to the other contenders or even the fact that not even Russian air force wanted to buy (just like no export customer has interest) it for a long time, made the Mig a bad choice for India.
Not to forget that the fighter is still in prototype stage only, all "Mig 35s" we saw so far, are just older airframes (Mig 29M2, Mig 29K/KUB) with some new techs integrated, so basically demonstrators. The final Mig 35 version with bigger wings for more fuel and weaponstations does not exist yet. Just like the radar is not ready and availabe in time, there are still weight issues with the Zhuk AE and 2013 was stated a while back, since then nothing new was reported and without credible funding Phazotron will have difficulties anyway.
The list of disadvantages for India by choosing the Mig is very long and that's why it wasn't surprising that it was rejected. The unit cost might be cheap and the pilot training is easy, but then we have higher maintenance costs, less capable engines (reportedly a point where IAF had issues) avionics and weapons compared to what the western vendors had on offer. And if all this would not be enough, Russian industry can't offer us more on the industrial side either. We already have the best techs and weapons from your country (which is a good thing), but we were searching for other alternatives, better ToT and more industrial benefits. Here again the western (Europeans) countries offered the clearly more interesting things for India.

If we wanted the cheapest fighter (overall costs) we would have selected the Gripen.
If we wanted the best political advantages we would have selected the F18SH.
If we wanted the best industrial package we might select the EF.
If we wanted the best fighter (for our forces) we might select the Rafale.

Looks like somebody is forgetting about PAK FA, S-400, S-500, Topol-M, RS-24, Iskander, Mi-28M, Ka-52, I could keep going, but I think you get the point.

 

[SpArK]

Just a news that British BAE got few bucks in Hawk spare deal.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Grapes are sour..... Its all about $$$....n its hard to take out them.

It took India more then 15 years to decide ..... This shows that how much they r confused

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

Grapes are sour..... Its all about $$$....n its hard to take out them.

It took India more then 15 years to decide ..... This shows that how much they r confused

It took you 15 pages to decide to give a lame reply!
The RFP were issued in the year 2007,so the time taken is a little over four years..........
Livefist: MoD Announces Release of MRCA RfP (Rs 42,000 crore!!)

 

[Zabaniyah]

Looks like somebody is forgetting about PAK FA, S-400, S-500, Topol-M, RS-24, Iskander, Mi-28M, Ka-52, I could keep going, but I think you get the point.

He meant in the export category.

 

[1000VA]

'MMRCA procurement at contract negotiations stage'- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

12 Dec 2011, 1845 hrs IST, AGENCIES

The final cost of procurement of 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) for the Indian Air Force would be known after completion of negotiations and finalisation of the contract, the government told the Lok Sabha on Monday (December 12).

In written reply to a question in the lower house, Defence Minister A K Antony said, "The proposal is now at the contract negotiations stage, and the final cost of procurement would be known only after completion of negotiations and finalisation of the contract."

He said the Defence Acquisitions Council had accorded Acceptance of Necessity for procurement of 126 M-MRCA at an estimated cost of Rs 42,000 crore in June 2007. Replying to a query related to offset proposal of the contract, he said, "As per Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2006 these (offset) relate to direct purchase of defence products or services or direct investments with Indian offset partners as per the stipulated guidelines."

On modernisation of IAF's transport and helicopter fleet, he said, "This includes induction of C-130J Transport Aircraft, C-17 Heavy Transport Aircraft, Medium Transport Aircraft as well as helicopters for various transport, recce and surveillance and operational tasks.” Antony informed the House that the operational capabilities of the IAF are reviewed periodically to ensure these are adequate to meet the security challenges.

On delivery of C-17 transport aircraft, he said, "All ten C-17 aircraft and their associated equipment are expected to be delivered to the IAF between June 2013 and June 2015." Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) have been signed with United States for procurement of ten C-17 Globemaster aircraft as well as six C-130J aircraft, Antony said.

“The estimated cost of the procurement of the C-17 aircraft is USD 4.116 billion while the cost of the procurement of the C-130J aircraft is USD 962.4 million," he said. The induction of the C-130J aircraft commenced in February 2011 and five aircraft have been inducted into the IAF so far. The sixth aircraft is planned for induction by the end of this month, Antony said. On scheduled induction of Light Combat Air craft (LCA), the Minister said it is expected to achieve Initial Operational Clearance for induction into the IAF in 2012.

In reply to a query on helicopter fleet of the Air Force, he said, “The major part of the helicopter fleet has useful residual life which is being gainfully utilised. Steps have been taken to both upgrade the existing fleet as well as to induct new helicopters for various tasks." Contracts have been signed for procurement of Medium Lift Helicopters from Russian Rosobornexport and Advanced Light Helicopter from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, he said.

 

[asad71]

India dare not offend master USA and buy something European rejecting their overpriced F-35.

 

[Zabaniyah]

India dare not offend master USA and buy something European rejecting their overpriced F-35.

They did offend the Americans by rejecting the F-16 and F-18

 

[Skull and Bones]

India dare not offend master USA and buy something European rejecting their overpriced F-35.

Commonsense is so uncommon these days.

 

[wonder]

Export variant are not full loaded and do not come with some core technology.
What India and Pakistan have got is not 100% loaded features.

 

[dearone4u_22]

India dare not offend master USA and buy something European rejecting their overpriced F-35.

are you really dumb or trying to act like one

 

[wonder]

I think Rafel is not a bad deal , because it will come loaded with modern features , and french alone manufactures this jet, and they are less dependent on other technology, example entire AESA radar is built using french parts.
Were as in Su-30 MKI Cryptographic circuits were made in china.
French are not stupid they know how to survive.
French like Russia has helped India in many technologies. Example : Dhruv Helicopter Shakti Engine.
French also help U.S.A and Russia in Aircraft Industries and technology development.
Mirage 2000 is marked superior to F-16 in 2000 -05 .
French supply of spare parts is better then BAE, U.S.A and Russia .
Quality better then China.
French geeks are also good,- just added.
French air crafts are multirole and easy to modify in role say from interceptor to Bomber or escort.

---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 PM ----------

India dare not offend master USA and buy something European rejecting their overpriced F-35.

Are U aware of situation and facts or many be U got confused ?

But good U brought your thoughts , just read the MMRCA deal it will be clear.

 

[wonder]

Not F 16 Blobk 70 that U.S offered to India.
Sir, I think it was F-16 IN Super Viper based on E/F with canards , viper for snake , snakes are worshiped in India.