MRCA Competition-threat to PAF?

[zeeshuisb]

still you see the results

Aircraft Odds vs. Su-35
Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor 10.1 : 1
Eurofighter Typhoon 4.5 : 1
Dassault Rafale C 1 : 1
McDonnell Douglas F-15C Eagle 0.8 : 1
Boeing F/A-18+ 0.4 : 1
McDonnell Douglas F/A-18C 0.3 : 1
General Dynamics F-16C 0.3 : 1

 

[zeeshuisb]

The "F/A-18+" in the study was apparently not the current F/A-18E/F, but an improved version

 

[Shiny Capstar]

su 35 is far more capable

Compared to what?

 

[zeeshuisb]

the one they use in simulator

 

[Shiny Capstar]

still you see the results

Aircraft Odds vs. Su-35
Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor 10.1 : 1
Eurofighter Typhoon 4.5 : 1
Dassault Rafale C 1 : 1
McDonnell Douglas F-15C Eagle 0.8 : 1
Boeing F/A-18+ 0.4 : 1
McDonnell Douglas F/A-18C 0.3 : 1
General Dynamics F-16C 0.3 : 1

I think the evaluation should be redone to take into account the actual capability of the Su-35 and the current capabilities of the Western aircraft.

Better yet do two evaluations, one using current Su-35 (not BM) and current Western aircraft and one using the Su-35BM and the near-mid term improvements for the Western aircraft.

 

[Shiny Capstar]

the one they use in simulator

The one used in the study was modelled with more capable avionics and weapons than the actual current Su-35.

 

[zeeshuisb]

Details of the simulation have not been released, making it harder to verify whether it gives an accurate evaluation (for instance, whether they had adequate knowledge of the Sukhoi and Raptor to realistically simulate their combat performance). Another problem with the study is the scenarios under which the combat took place are unclear; it is possible that they were deliberately or accidentally skewed to combat scenarios that favoured certain aircraft over others; For instance, long-range engagements favour planes with stealth, good radar and advanced missiles, whereas the Su-35’s alleged above-average maneuverability may prove advantageous in short-range combat. Nor is it clear whether the Su-35 was modeled with thrust vector control (as the present MKIs, MKMs have).

Additionally, the DERA simulation was made in the mid 90s with limited knowledge about the Radar Cross Section, the ECM and the radar performances of the actual aircraft: indeed, at that time, the 4th/5th generation fighters were all at the prototype stage.

 

[Shiny Capstar]

Details of the simulation have not been released, making it harder to verify whether it gives an accurate evaluation (for instance, whether they had adequate knowledge of the Sukhoi and Raptor to realistically simulate their combat performance). Another problem with the study is the scenarios under which the combat took place are unclear; it is possible that they were deliberately or accidentally skewed to combat scenarios that favoured certain aircraft over others; For instance, long-range engagements favour planes with stealth, good radar and advanced missiles, whereas the Su-35’s alleged above-average maneuverability may prove advantageous in short-range combat. Nor is it clear whether the Su-35 was modeled with thrust vector control (as the present MKIs, MKMs have).

Additionally, the DERA simulation was made in the mid 90s with limited knowledge about the Radar Cross Section, the ECM and the radar performances of the actual aircraft: indeed, at that time, the 4th/5th generation fighters were all at the prototype stage.

Hence why it should be repeated.

 

[zeeshuisb]

I think the evaluation should be redone to take into account the actual capability of the Su-35 and the current capabilities of the Western aircraft.

Better yet do two evaluations, one using current Su-35 (not BM) and current Western aircraft and one using the Su-35BM and the near-mid term improvements for the Western aircraft.

right now they are focusing the Sukhoi PAK FA

 

[Shiny Capstar]

right now they are focusing the Sukhoi PAK FA

It is still a paper plane (we don't know what it will be like) and wont be in service in any numbers until 2017 at the very earliest anyway.

 

[zeeshuisb]

During the "Cope India '04" exercise (2004), USAF F-15 Eagles were pitted against Indian Air Force Su-30MKs, Mirage 2000s, MiG-29s and elderly MiG-21. The results have been widely publicized, with the Indians winning "90% of the mock combat missions". The "Cope India 2005" exercise was conducted with teams that used a combination of United States and Russian-designed aircraft. The Christian Science Monitor (CSM) reported that “both the Americans and the Indians won, and lost.” However, it also noted “that in a surprising number of encounters — particularly between the American F-16s and the Indian Sukhoi-30 MKIs — the Indian pilots came out the winners. According to the same article the Indian air force designed Cope 2005 in that the rules of engagement be that the forces fight within visual range, and both forces could not take advantage of their long range sensors or weapons. The article goes on to state that a retired Indian Air Force General stated that: "The Sukhoi is a... better plane than the F-16." The USAF was said to be “most impressed by the MiG-21 Bisons and the Su-30 MKIs”.

In June 2005, a Royal Air Force Eurofighter trainer two seater was reportedly able, in a mock confrontation, to avoid two pursuing F-15E fighter-bombers and outmaneuver them, to get into a shooting position.

During Exercise "Northern Edge 2006" (a simulated war game), in Alaska (June 2006), the F-22 reportedly proved its mettle against as many as 40 U.S Air Force simulated "enemy aircraft" during simulated battles. The Raptor is claimed to have achieved a 108:0 kill ratio at that exercise.

In April 2006, during a DACT exercise a F/A-18F Super Hornet from VFA-11 was able to get a brief gun track on a F-22. The little black box in the HUD in the upper left side indicated that the trigger was pressed and three frames taken. However, it should be noted that the F/A-18F and F-22 were within the safety margin, and a full gun track and kill was not recorded.

An F-16C pilot assigned to the 64th Aggressor Squadron gained the first-ever F-22 simulated kill in Red Flag, February 2007. [94th commander] Lt. Col. Dirk Smith told AFM. However, the F-22 "killed" its attacker with a simulated missile launch while the F-16s'simulated missile was enroute to the F-22. In essence, the F-16 had to kill itself to score a kill on the F-22.

 

[zeeshuisb]

these are different opinnion and no one is perfect

 

[Shiny Capstar]

During the "Cope India '04" exercise (2004), USAF F-15 Eagles were pitted against Indian Air Force Su-30MKs, Mirage 2000s, MiG-29s and elderly MiG-21. The results have been widely publicized, with the Indians winning "90% of the mock combat missions". The "Cope India 2005" exercise was conducted with teams that used a combination of United States and Russian-designed aircraft. The Christian Science Monitor (CSM) reported that “both the Americans and the Indians won, and lost.” However, it also noted “that in a surprising number of encounters — particularly between the American F-16s and the Indian Sukhoi-30 MKIs — the Indian pilots came out the winners. According to the same article the Indian air force designed Cope 2005 in that the rules of engagement be that the forces fight within visual range, and both forces could not take advantage of their long range sensors or weapons. The article goes on to state that a retired Indian Air Force General stated that: "The Sukhoi is a... better plane than the F-16." The USAF was said to be “most impressed by the MiG-21 Bisons and the Su-30 MKIs”.

Yep, the ROE were heavily in favour of the IAF. It was more a friend making exercise and an excuse for chest beating than anything else.

In April 2006, during a DACT exercise a F/A-18F Super Hornet from VFA-11 was able to get a brief gun track on a F-22. The little black box in the HUD in the upper left side indicated that the trigger was pressed and three frames taken. However, it should be noted that the F/A-18F and F-22 were within the safety margin, and a full gun track and kill was not recorded.

An F-16C pilot assigned to the 64th Aggressor Squadron gained the first-ever F-22 simulated kill in Red Flag, February 2007. [94th commander] Lt. Col. Dirk Smith told AFM. However, the F-22 "killed" its attacker with a simulated missile launch while the F-16s'simulated missile was enroute to the F-22. In essence, the F-16 had to kill itself to score a kill on the F-22.

The F16 had already been shot down a fair few times, it only succeeded by pretending to be 'killed' aircraft and so the F22 pilot didn't shoot him (crafty but no good in a war). (At least this is what I heard)

 

[zeeshuisb]

i think its very much depends on the pilots skills too

 

[Shiny Capstar]

i think its very much depends on the pilots skills too

Often yes.