Most Pakistanis hate Afghani namak harams

[El Sidd]

Right.

@WebMaster @The Eagle @Horus apologies to involve you, but Mr @Retired Troll is engaging in continuous personal attacks. This behaviour is continuing even after I remedied whatever slight he felt because of earlier conversation. I thank you gentlemen for you consideration.

I would request a fair trial for this.

 

[TMA]

This is categorically wrong, and flies in the face of facts. There was no need for fencing when the Taliban were in power. It's only after the current Afghan government came into power that we started seeing these problems. So, the solution is simple: topple the current government.



OK, you took that very seriously. For the record, I was treating you as your handle demanded: retired troll, and it was in pure jest. If this hurt your feelings, then I truly apologize.

But whatever I have said absolutely pales in comparison to the generalized and highly derogatory diatribe spewed by the other member. That you should try to compare myself with him only reflects your own biasedness.

Anyway, just so there are no further confusions, and because my jests become too much for you to handle, let's reach an understanding: if we address each other, it will be in all seriousness. No snide remarks, no jests, no trolling. Is this OK with you?

So when Afghanistan refused to accept Pakistan into the UN was just false history?
When she stoked up ethnic insurgency in the 50's and 60's that is also "categorically wrong"?
What about the border invasion in Sept 1950, is that also incorrect?

What about the loya jirga of July 1949 where Afghanistan refused to accept the Durand-Khan border?! Is that propaganda made up by anti Afghan Pakistanis?

True when the Afghan Taliban were in Kabul there was no worry about skirmishes or stoking up insurgency but I would say in hindsight still a need to fence.
You do know that the Afghan Taliban government also did not recognise the Durand-Khan border?
It is just that they did not want to use subterfuge or insurgency to solve that issue.

However there was definitely a need to fence the border before that and Pakistan was fooled by this Ummah concept (as it is a two way concept and our Afghan brothers pre Afghan Taliban did not consider Pakistan her brother). Now post the false flags of 9/11, there is an EVEN GREATER need to fence the border and Pakistan is finally getting her act together.
As to the anti Pakistani government in Kabul, unless NATO leaves there will be an anti-Pakistan government in Kabul and should NATO leave there is still a high chance of an anti-Pakistan government.
Except for the Afghan Taliban government there has been an anti-Pakistan government, sometimes very anti-Pakistan and others mildly anti-Pakistan but anti Pakistani nonetheless.

Your solution is conceptually simple but extremely hard cos NATO does not intend to leave. It would be easier for Pakistan to locate every illegal Afghan and those who have acquired Pakistani papers illegally and then to repatriate it them than to "topple the current government".

This idea that problems between Afghanistan and Pakistan start only post 2001 or post 1979 are categorically wrong! They start in 1947 when the State of Pakistan came into existence!!

 

[CriticalThought]

So when Afghanistan refused to accept Pakistan into the UN was just false history?
When she stoked up ethnic insurgency in the 50's and 60's that is also "categorically wrong"?
What about the border invasion in Sept 1950, is that also incorrect?

What about the loya jirga of July 1949 where Afghanistan refused to accept the Durand-Khan border?! Is that propaganda made up by anti Afghan Pakistanis?

True when the Afghan Taliban were in Kabul there was no worry about skirmishes or stoking up insurgency but I would say in hindsight still a need to fence.
You do know that the Afghan Taliban government also did not recognise the Durand-Khan border?
It is just that they did not want to use subterfuge or insurgency to solve that issue.

However there was definitely a need to fence the border before that and Pakistan was fooled by this Ummah concept (as it is a two way concept and our Afghan brothers pre Afghan Taliban did not consider Pakistan her brother). Now post the false flags of 9/11, there is an EVEN GREATER need to fence the border and Pakistan is finally getting her act together.
As to the anti Pakistani government in Kabul, unless NATO leaves there will be an anti-Pakistan government in Kabul and should NATO leave there is still a high chance of an anti-Pakistan government.
Except for the Afghan Taliban government there has been an anti-Pakistan government, sometimes very anti-Pakistan and others mildly anti-Pakistan but anti Pakistani nonetheless.

Your solution is conceptually simple but extremely hard cos NATO does not intend to leave. It would be easier for Pakistan to locate every illegal Afghan and those who have acquired Pakistani papers illegally and then to repatriate it them than to "topple the current government".

This idea that problems between Afghanistan and Pakistan start only post 2001 or post 1979 are categorically wrong! They start in 1947 when the State of Pakistan came into existence!!

The problems post 2000 are a continuation of the problems pre-Russian Invasion. And I am saying that if these forces are not dealt with, we will be facing a two front war with both India and Afghanistan. And no fence is going to help you.

What is the tried and tested model that serves Pakistan's interests best? Did the model have any fence? Did it need any fence?

Here is the reality of the situation. There are families divided across the Durand line. There is a real human element. Consider the problem as comprising multiple forces, each force attempting to pull apart your solution. The human element is a huge force. Trying to subdue it creates resentment. It leads to even more problems.

Here are the fears Pakistanis have about not fencing the border:

1. The Afghans are fundamentally malicious and harbor malcontent.
2. They will come into Pakistan and create chaos en masse.

And I am not saying these fears are misplaced. They represent underlying problems:

1. The Afghan population is poor, uneducated.
2. There is a sense of haves vs have nots. There is a feeling that the Russian war was imposed upon them leading to their current state, while Pakistan enjoyed freedom.

In these conditions, if you create a fence, you give RAW, Mossas, CIA the full space to nurture this resentment. A very palpable face if this resentment is the PTM.

The only solution is to forcefully take over Afghan territory, install a governance model we KNOW works, and then create prosperity amongst the population. Give them something that will make their life worthwhile. I consider Afghanistan the next Baluchistan, or the next KPK.

Mark my words: our problems do not begin in Afghanistan and end in Baluchistan. Our problems start in Afghanistan and end in Afghanistan.

 

[razgriz19]

Well when I was living in Karachi i chose their "tandoor ki roti" over any big establishment. They are hard working people, you will find them at every labour intensive job unlike any punjabi or sindhi. Those who are honest should be given citizenship, better way of putting it would be those who work should be given the right to live in Pakistan.

 

[TMA]

Thanks for your Indian opinion but it is not true:- "reason why those Afghans who have British/EU papers here in the UK are more hateful of Pakistan "

I have many Afghan friends in the UK and they are really big hearted people who bare no hate.

That is YOUR experience.
Ask you big hearted Afghan friends this: Do you accept the Durand-Khan Border as the de jure border?
Ask them this: Do you think Afghanistan not accepting Pakistan in 1947 was wrong? Do you think supporting ethnic insurgencies in the border regions in the 50's and 60's was wrong? Do you think that the Loya Jirga decision of 1949 was the right thing to do?

My Afghan friends who do not hate me or other individual Pakistanis, do not accept the Durand-Khan Border as the de jure border. My Afghan friends who often pay for our meals out together consider Pakistan to have cut a deep wound in the Afghan nation by not returning Afghan land.

The fact is that as a nation Afghanistan considers Pakistan to be occupying her territory and severing her nation. Now there may be "big hearted" Afghans who do actually accept Pakistan and her borders and consider Pakistani Puktoons as trues Pakistanis as Sindhis or Punjabis etc etc...but they are a minority....

Also there is no need for ad hominems, it does not add to your argument.

The problems post 2000 are a continuation of the problems pre-Russian Invasion. And I am saying that if these forces are not dealt with, we will be facing a two front war with both India and Afghanistan. And no fence is going to help you.

What is the tried and tested model that serves Pakistan's interests best? Did the model have any fence? Did it need any fence?

Here is the reality of the situation. There are families divided across the Durand line. There is a real human element. Consider the problem as comprising multiple forces, each force attempting to pull apart your solution. The human element is a huge force. Trying to subdue it creates resentment. It leads to even more problems.

Here are the fears Pakistanis have about not fencing the border:

1. The Afghans are fundamentally malicious and harbor malcontent.
2. They will come into Pakistan and create chaos en masse.

And I am not saying these fears are misplaced. They represent underlying problems:

1. The Afghan population is poor, uneducated.
2. There is a sense of haves vs have nots. There is a feeling that the Russian war was imposed upon them leading to their current state, while Pakistan enjoyed freedom.

In these conditions, if you create a fence, you give RAW, Mossas, CIA the full space to nurture this resentment. A very palpable face if this resentment is the PTM.

The only solution is to forcefully take over Afghan territory, install a governance model we KNOW works, and then create prosperity amongst the population. Give them something that will make their life worthwhile. I consider Afghanistan the next Baluchistan, or the next KPK.

Mark my words: our problems do not begin in Afghanistan and end in Baluchistan. Our problems start in Afghanistan and end in Afghanistan.

It seems you and I agree on the "big picture" but differ on the strategy.

You know Pakistan offered the hand of friendship to Afghanistan in the early days and kept the border open for those "human element" reasons. But who rejected it?

The underlying resentment is the fact that KPK and Baluchistan are Pakistani! Even when there was an open border there was this resentment and ethnic insurgencies were stoked up by Afghanistan in the 50's and 60's. Resentment will always be there unless Pakistan "returns Afghan" land.

Now Pakistan is in no position to topple the Kabul regime or take over significant Afghan territory. NATO ain't leaving anytime soon. Do you actually think that Pakistan can economically and politically maintain this should she militarily achieve this (which is unlikely with NATO presence)??

Look Pakistan has trouble creating prosperity in Pakistan. And you speak of Afghanistan?

And should Pakistan do as you say, that will breed even more resentment. Mark my words.
Afghans do not even being like governed by other Afghans. Why do you think that they will appreciate DaalKhor or Gul Khan.


Containment is the least worst option.

A closed border is in the long term OVERALL interests of Pakistan despite human elements and RAW/CIA taking advantage of that. RAW/CIA will take advantage of anything that Pakistan does/does not do. If Pakistan keeps the border open, she will take advantage of that. If Pakistan keeps a closed border than they will take advantage
of that. If Pakistan gives citizenship to millions of Afghan refugees, she will take advantage of that. If Pakistan does NOT give citizenship to Afghans then RAW/CIA will take advantage of that.


Pakistan is ALREADY in the midst of a two front (hybrid) war. Have you not realised this?

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

That is soo hypocritical of you to say that. Since the most vocal calls for breakup of Pakistan after Balochistan have been coming from various circles and socio-ethnic classes of Karachi FOR DECADES UPON DECADES.

Much of it based on concept of Punjabi army and Punjabistan instead of Pakistan.

Let that sink in.

Accidentally I have seen your comment. Next time, tag me properly so that I know what you are saying on my back..

And yes, I don't need any certificate from a person who was creating a Khalistan in Pakistan a few months back because he loves his ghaddar leader more than anyone else..

Secondly, Karachiites, whether they are urdu speakers or non- urdu speakers, voted for PTI.. They voted for candidates who belong to any ethnic background and alhamdolillah we have won 2/3rd majority in a single city.. This was the first election after Altaf the Ghaddar spread his filth in 2016..

This shows that we have love for Pakistan.. unlike you lot.. (and I am not talking about all Punjabis), who don't care about your country and even go on asking for a separate homeland in love of Qatari Aunty and her abba..

Merely repeating that I am a Anti Pakistan/ Anti Army will not make me one.. but asking for break up of Pakistan has certainly made you a traitor..

Karachi is a mini Pakistan.. you hate it or love it, but you guys can't ignore it.. I love it when people like you with inferiority complex about the largest city in Pakistan cry like babies against Karachi.. but you can't do anything..

He is merely presenting his arguments/opinions in a respectable fashion. There are no personal attacks in his posts. Rather you keep accusing him of lack of respect etc etc.

Right.

@WebMaster @The Eagle @Horus apologies to involve you, but Mr @Retired Troll is engaging in continuous personal attacks. This behaviour is continuing even after I remedied whatever slight he felt because of earlier conversation. I thank you gentlemen for you consideration.

 

[El Sidd]

unlike any punjabi or sindhi

Excuse me?

Punjabis are represented in every Level of occupation plying its trade in Pakistan.

Sindh is just not Karachi. From Hyderabad to larkana upto Saraiki region. Sindhis are as much productive as balochs and pashtuns.

Sindh has a desert. Lazy or choosy People do Not survive deserts.

 

[PakSword]

That is soo hypocritical of you to say that. Since the most vocal calls for breakup of Pakistan after Balochistan have been coming from various circles and socio-ethnic classes of Karachi FOR DECADES UPON DECADES.

Much of it based on concept of Punjabi army and Punjabistan instead of Pakistan.

Let that sink in.

Hmmm ever visited Karachi? This kind of talk always comes from people who have not been to Karachi ever..

By the way, don't tell us that you are the most righteous person.. No one just grows hate inside him about the whole community based on meeting a few of its members.. This kind of hate is seeded in the childhood, and then carefully fed to become a monster. And when such a person meets anyone, that hate oozes out and of course the rest of the community gives that hater the kind of "respect" he deserves.. The hate grows more with that little "respect", until he explodes this hate on the "growers" of this hate..

This is being witnessed here on this thread by 2-3 people.. They have been seeded with the hate very early in the childhood.. I have met such muhibbe watan people personally, and the kind of interaction I had with them might have increased hate in them.. but they couldn't do anything on the face..

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

No ya dumb fuk. Take my posting history when zarb e azab was going on I supported Karachi and its people. In all of my pre 2018 posts I have supported you scum and the arab superiority scum. Until I actually met you snakes in person. And the palestinian/syrian/arab scum in person.
All of you deserve IDF, MQM, ISIS etc etc pounding the hell out of you.

Yeah I have been to Karachi. My uncle is a billionaire(in PKR) in Karachi. But only got a superficial view of what the people are actually like. He is also Punjabi/Lahori he hinted at facing similar problems and I cant believe myself when I say I actually argued in your favor.

Hmmm ever visited Karachi? This kind of talk always comes from people who have not been to Karachi ever..

By the way, don't tell us that you are the most righteous person.. No one just grows hate inside him about the whole community based on meeting a few of its members.. This kind of hate is seeded in the childhood, and then carefully fed to become a monster. And when such a person meets anyone, that hate oozes out and of course the rest of the community gives that hater the kind of "respect" he deserves.. The hate grows more with that little "respect", until he explodes this hate on the "growers" of this hate..

This is being witnessed here on this thread by 2-3 people.. They have been seeded with the hate very early in the childhood.. I have met such muhibbe watan people personally, and the kind of interaction I had with them might have increased hate in them.. but they couldn't do anything on the face..

 

[CriticalThought]

That is YOUR experience.
Ask you big hearted Afghan friends this: Do you accept the Durand-Khan Border as the de jure border?
Ask them this: Do you think Afghanistan not accepting Pakistan in 1947 was wrong? Do you think supporting ethnic insurgencies in the border regions in the 50's and 60's was wrong? Do you think that the Loya Jirga decision of 1949 was the right thing to do?

My Afghan friends who do not hate me or other individual Pakistanis, do not accept the Durand-Khan Border as the de jure border. My Afghan friends who often pay for our meals out together consider Pakistan to have cut a deep wound in the Afghan nation by not returning Afghan land.

The fact is that as a nation Afghanistan considers Pakistan to be occupying her territory and severing her nation. Now there may be "big hearted" Afghans who do actually accept Pakistan and her borders and consider Pakistani Puktoons as trues Pakistanis as Sindhis or Punjabis etc etc...but they are a minority....

Also there is no need for ad hominems, it does not add to your argument.


It seems you and I agree on the "big picture" but differ on the strategy.

You know Pakistan offered the hand of friendship to Afghanistan in the early days and kept the border open for those "human element" reasons. But who rejected it?

The underlying resentment is the fact that KPK and Baluchistan are Pakistani! Even when there was an open border there was this resentment and ethnic insurgencies were stoked up by Afghanistan in the 50's and 60's. Resentment will always be there unless Pakistan "returns Afghan" land.

Now Pakistan is in no position to topple the Kabul regime or take over significant Afghan territory. NATO ain't leaving anytime soon. Do you actually think that Pakistan can economically and politically maintain this should she militarily achieve this (which is unlikely with NATO presence)??

Look Pakistan has trouble creating prosperity in Pakistan. And you speak of Afghanistan?

And should Pakistan do as you say, that will breed even more resentment. Mark my words.
Afghans do not even being like governed by other Afghans. Why do you think that they will appreciate DaalKhor or Gul Khan.


Containment is the least worst option.

A closed border is in the long term OVERALL interests of Pakistan despite human elements and RAW/CIA taking advantage of that. RAW/CIA will take advantage of anything that Pakistan does/does not do. If Pakistan keeps the border open, she will take advantage of that. If Pakistan keeps a closed border than they will take advantage
of that. If Pakistan gives citizenship to millions of Afghan refugees, she will take advantage of that. If Pakistan does NOT give citizenship to Afghans then RAW/CIA will take advantage of that.


Pakistan is ALREADY in the midst of a two front (hybrid) war. Have you not realised this?

The way to bring prosperity to Afghan is by way of CPEC. We can share the bounties of CPEC with everyone.

The way to gain control over Afghan territory is a piecewise fashion. Here is a simple rule: if fire comes on us from any direction, or we find insurgents trying to cross over from any area, we simply take over the area under the pretext of maintaining security. The Afghan government should be apprised beforehand of this intention.

Once an area is under Pakistani control, the immediate steps must be gaining confidence of the local population. Impress upon them that they are now safe from terrorists and American bombings. Provide them means of livelihood and open access to rest of Pakistan. If the area is under populated, bring in the Afghan refugees and honourably settle them in this area. Raise LEAs amongst the local population. Install a system of governance that respects their wishes.

We need to bring along China, Saudi Arabia, and Russia into this. We can't do this alone, but under the CPEC umbrella, we can share the bounties with our neighbours.

If you are concerned about finances, here are the options: an actual two front, physical war with Afghanistan and India at the same time, or a preemptive strike on Afghanistan. We don't have the finances to deal with either. But in one case, we can plan and execute at our will, while in the other, the war will be imposed by the enemy at the most inopportune time.

Look, here is how you solve real world problems. When looking for the solution, find the best possible solution, disregarding any constraints. Now you can see what the best unconstrained solution looks like, start adding constraints and see how the solution gets modified. At this point, you have the ability to prioritize the constraints. You might add one, and see how that affects finances (for example). Compare that with some other constraint. This gives a natural priority between constraints.

Tell me, do you agree that IF Pakistan had the resources, the preemptive solution would be the best solution?

 

[El Sidd]

But only got a superficial view of what the people are actually like.

Dont you think Thats harsh.

You cannot take a superficial persons View as befitting generalisation.

That can be dangerously narrow minded.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Great so the Afghans can blow themselves up on every chinese vehicle that passes through CPEC??
At most these people will only destablise Pakistan further and sabotage CPEC and at least will stay neutral.

No sane country wants to take their major lifeline/mega economic project into Afghanistan. Except Ummah crazed(a concept I held dearly pre 2018) Pakistan.

The way to bring prosperity to Afghan is by way of CPEC. We can share the bounties of CPEC with everyone.

The way to gain control over Afghan territory is a piecewise fashion. Here is a simple rule: if fire comes on us from any direction, or we find insurgents trying to cross over from any area, we simply take over the area under the pretext of maintaining security. The Afghan government should be apprised beforehand of this intention.

Once an area is under Pakistani control, the immediate steps must be gaining confidence of the local population. Impress upon them that they are now safe from terrorists and American bombings. Provide them means of livelihood and open access to rest of Pakistan. If the area is under populated, bring in the Afghan refugees and honourably settle them in this area. Raise LEAs amongst the local population. Install a system of governance that respects their wishes.

We need to bring along China, Saudi Arabia, and Russia into this. We can't do this alone, but under the CPEC umbrella, we can share the bounties with our neighbours.

If you are concerned about finances, here are the options: an actual two front, physical war with Afghanistan and India at the same time, or a preemptive strike on Afghanistan. We don't have the finances to deal with either. But in one case, we can plan and execute at our will, while in the other, the war will be imposed by the enemy at the most inopportune time.

Look, here is how you solve real world problems. When looking for the solution, find the best possible solution, disregarding any constraints. Now you can see what the best unconstrained solution looks like, start adding constraints and see how the solution gets modified. At this point, you have the ability to prioritize the constraints. You might add one, and see how that affects finances (for example). Compare that with some other constraint. This gives a natural priority between constraints.

Tell me, do you agree that IF Pakistan had the resources, the preemptive solution would be the best solution?

 

[PakSword]

No ya dumb fuk. Take my posting history when zarb e azab was going on I supported Karachi and its people. In all of my pre 2018 posts I have supported you scum and the arab superiority scum. Until I actually met you snakes in person. And the palestinian/syrian/arab scum in person.
All of you deserve IDF, MQM, ISIS etc etc pounding the hell out of you.

Yeah I have been to Karachi. My uncle is a billionaire(in PKR) in Karachi. But only got a superficial view of what the people are actually like. He is also Punjabi/Lahori he hinted at facing similar problems and I cant believe myself when I say I actually argued in your favor.

Your parents talk in this manner with you? I think this is your real mother tongue..

Imagine your father saying to you "you dumb fvck.. you MF!"

This is the kind I was referring to in my earlier comment.. Otherwise Punjabis are very nice people.. why I am saying this? Because I am married to a Punjabi..

Good thing is that they also identify you lot in them.. For example.. they call these foul mouth "dagga wala punjabi".. But I don't call you lot like that.. it's your own brethren.

By the way.. good to tell about your uncle who is living in Karachi and a "billionaire" and living his life successfully when "dumb fvcks" are around..

Looks like the whole family speaks the same language.. isn't it?

Anyway, I am all for Pakistan.. A person can speak his heart on a forum where he has no identity.. So if you are saying this.. it was in your heart from the beginning.. it just triggered by something recently.. So I believe you have been told in your childhood "urdu speakers/ muhajrs are all dumb fvcks, you dumb fvck MF.. get this in your head you MF".. You grew with that hate isn't it?

And if I am saying "Long Live Pakistan and Long Live Every Community, Every Pakistani Living on this Blessed Land" on a forum, sitting outside of Pakistan, where I could have said bad things about my country.. I am speaking what I have been told since my childhood.. This is the difference..

 

[El Sidd]

2018

I can understand.

There was double Red eclipse already this year. I nearly decided to get married.

We both need therapy

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

No I am saying that when I visited Karachi I only interacted with high class pseudo enlightened intellectuals.

But here I have interacted with every kind Karachiite and gotten a FULL view of a Karachiite state of mind.

None of the Karachiites I met have been able to give me a satisfactoey answer to the question of fake so called "mohajirs" and "urdu speakers".

Dont you think Thats harsh.

You cannot take a superficial persons View as befitting generalisation.

That can be dangerously narrow minded.