Most French people think Islam is incompatible with nation's values: PM

[Dubious]

Secularism isn't the absence of religion, it's neutrality on religion; not support one religion over another.

Spot on...MAJOR problem with today's world is people dont use the word as per its definition but instead try to make a new example of an old used and abused word...in an effort in doing so they even forget what the word really meant!

That's great.. Thanks I guess .. And whenever you visit .. You would be my guest!

Cheers.

wadday wadday guests bulai jaray hain

 

[Taygibay]

That's great.. Thanks I guess .. And whenever you visit .. You would be my guest!

Cheers.

It would be my honour!

And that exchange between you and JoeS was a pleasure to follow.
People who are well-raised and sure of themselves don't seek conflict.
If anything, they aspire to friendship & tranquility.

All the best to both and those close to you,
and even to the lady while I'm at it, Tay.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

It would be my honour!

And that exchange between you and JoeS was a pleasure to follow.
People who are well-raised and sure of themselves don't seek conflict.
If anything, they aspire to friendship & tranquility.

All the best to both and those close to you,
and even to the lady while I'm at it, Tay.

It will be a pleasure to have you as a guest my friend.. And Joe "the great"..

 

[Malik Alashter]

Whaaat? it took him over a month to defeat france and it's Adolf Hitler*

18 days no more no less .

 

[Indus Pakistan]

No but it actually ties in to JoeS' question.
I'm French ( and something else from West too ) alright!

Except that there are reasons that have me like Pakistan a lot.

First, the burden of its birth due to Albion's shenanigans.

Second, the person that was M. A. Jinnah, a fave of mine.

Third, the difficulty of balancing acts Pakistan has to play :
secular vs Islamic republic, pesky neighbours N.W. & S.E.,
West and East influences, etc.
For example, in the insurgency situation, this Islamic nation
has to fight extremists of its own faith while keeping faith in
itself which is perilous at best.
You are a unique part of Ummah even without the nukes!

Fourth and this only concerns Internet but it will get me lotsa
trouble, I tried Indian fora including the one we cannot name
and honestly, they were pretty pathetic and unworkable.
All in the nerves and wishful thinking, as if discussing with a
neurotic western woman lost between her rights, perception
thereof and inability to reason with logic if battle of sexes is
involved ( battle of dreams for Bharatis, I guess, vs reality )
which I try to avoid IRL TBH.

PDF is an oasis of self-control by comparison and the good
Indians ready for honest talks have to come here since the
use of logic over temper tantrums is forbidden at home.
And I was always well treated here by the forum management.

All in all, I always had a penchant for unjustly treated minorities
and Pakistan fits that image in my mind ... especially when you
listen to political convos in the US Congress.

And on the emotional front, the northern provinces GB-KP etc
remind me of a place I grew up in especially in Autumn!

There is a lot to be fixed as anywhere else on Earth but you
people are doing it by yourselves which I respect immensely.

So mark me as a fan, hence the flag ( as my residence status is complicated ).
When I come here on PDF, I root for Pakistan, it's that simple!

Have the best of days, Tay.

Very interesting post. All the best to you.

 

[Vergennes]

18 days no more no less .

@barbarosa

How talking about something that happened 70 years ago is relevant to this thread ?
Is that the only arguments you found ?

@Malik Alashter PS : I have seen you making fun of the french many times,and that's rich coming from an iraqi....

 

[Malik Alashter]

@barbarosa

How talking about something that happened 70 years ago is relevant to this thread ?
Is that the only arguments you found ?

@Malik Alashter PS : I have seen you making fun of the french many times,and that's rich coming from an iraqi....

can you show how this is a fun of the french please.

And what's wrong about Iraqi people please.

 

[XenoEnsi-14]

They're up there with my most disliked foods like tomatoes, mackerels and honey !

Dude, I have never heard anybody say that ever. Are you allergic bees and pollen?

 

[MarkusS]

Well pretty much all european citizens think so. In germany, italy, denmark, evry eastern european country as well as spain and portugal the majority dislike islam, see it as enemy and push it out.

I dont debate about the reason for this.

 

[HAIDER]

Well pretty much all european citizens think so. In germany, italy, denmark, evry eastern european country as well as spain and portugal the majority dislike islam, see it as enemy and push it out.

I dont debate about the reason for this.

You are not talking about Islam, you are talking about Arabian culture. Two different subject.

 

[Taygibay]

ell pretty much all european citizens think so. In germany, italy, denmark, evry eastern european country as well as spain and portugal the majority dislike islam, see it as enemy and push it out.

Well, not in France except for old people lacking mental flexibility
and the inevitable racist/xenophobe here and there.

Check this out Markus and tell me about bad Muslims for fun :
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...catholics-priest-murderered-article-1.2733496

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/wo...-solidarity/otPLObCMGLjL62lcUkBRaJ/story.html

I for one am very proud of my Muslim compatriots,
despite the bad apples and crazies.

Tay.

 

[war&peace]

@Vauban This brings to fore a very fundamental question that I have tried to resolve but thus far failed to get a clear answer. Is secularism compatible and or acceptable in Islam?

I have asked quite a few religious members here and in real life but not got satisfactory answer. Most people will go all ot against secularism say in Pakistan. In other words they regard secularism as a anathema to Islam but the same people don't see a problem with muslim's migrating to secular countries like France. In my opinion if secularism is unacceptable and contra Islam inside Pakistan then it is equally deleterious to a Muslim in secular France. Bottom line no mUslim should chose to move or live in France.

However from what I see it appears to be one rule there and another rule here.


No offense but you seem to be using the wrong word there.

Hey,

The problem is not that people who are migrating to France now but basically the rights of people (especially Muslims) already living there and living for more than one generation. Do you know how many Algerians are in France and under what conditions they were invited and offered French citizenship? I guess not. And now it's children and grand children of those immigrants who came to France legally and were granted French citizenships. You can argue about the ones who want to migrate to France but what about their rights? Did they sign up for it?

Secularism not only means the absence of religion but also neutrality towards the religion, but these hypocrites specifically target Islam which is abhorring. I would not recommend any Muslim to migrate to France under current circumstances but what about those are there already?

Furthermore, what would you say if PM of Pakistan (for that matter any Muslim country) does the exact speech but against Christianity, Hinduism etc and terms Christianity incompatible with Pakistan?

I'll wait for your reply.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The problem is not that people who are migrating to France now but basically the rights of people (especially Muslims) already living there and living for more than one generation

Citizenship is a privilege - Whether they came yesterday or two generations ago you are obligated (which is recieved through your antecedents) to respect and adhere to the laws of the state you live in.

My father came to UK and was given UK citizenship. By coming here and having citizenship conferred on him was a honour. His swore a oath to the Queen and with obligations he also earned rights. Those were conferred through inheritance on to me. My rights (obligations) will be conferred to my children. About two years ago my brother went to Kazakstan on business and he got taken very ill. We were in UK worried as Kazakstan is ex Soviet Republic on other side of the world and very few Kazaks speak English with Russian being dominant. As soon as British Embassy found out they sorted out emergency medical care for him and then even made arrangements for him to be brought back to UK. My brother was not ethnic English but as he says being a citizen of UK meant he was suddenly accorded full help of the British state - help that the Pakistan state would never service to it's citizens even if they are "natives".

Do you know how many Algerians are in France and under what conditions they were invited and offered French citizenship?

I know full well. I have visited France many times and in fact I am planning a road trip later this month to France. I first went to France in 1982 as teenager and had time of my life. Paris is great city. It was there I first came into contact with Algerians. Some of the maids in the hotel were Algerian. I still remember being somewhat puzzled to see swarthy girls rather similar to me but some with strange frizzy hair.

And if their grandparents could move to France their grandchildren who are better equipped mentally and financially can easily move back if they are not happy with France. If their grandparents could migrate when the world was less mobile, from a land that they had lived in for time immemorial for sake of money then their gandchildren should be able to move back in double-time.

Or is migration only one way street?

Secularism not only means the absence of religion but also neutrality towards the religion

Secularism is concept. Precisely how it is applied is open to interpretation. Just like in Islam we have so many interpretations the same applies to secularism. History, culture, institutions, politics all go to inform exactly the nature of and precise contours of secularism. Certainly secularism as practiced in France is differant from as is in UK and even more so as is in Russia. We even have totalitarian versions like in China. Where they will thrash your backside and then send you home crying.

France is a soveriegn state. The French people died in millions building it and protecting it. They have the absolute right as to the nature of secularism in their country. That does not mean I agree with it but their law making body is soveriegn.

Furthermore, what would you say if PM of Pakistan (for that matter any Muslim country) does the exact speech but against Christianity, Hinduism etc and terms Christianity incompatible with Pakistan?

They don't have to. A Christian's value in Pakistan is slightly less than my Alsatian dog. Ditto for others. The Ahmedis, well their value is less than that of stray dog. Shoot a stray dog in UK and you will probably create more ruckus than wasting a Ahmedi in Pakistan. In fact the public will come out a declare you a hero.

The last. I mean the last people who have right to talk about rights of citizenship is Pakistani's. And by the way those Hindu, Christian, Ahmedi's are not even migrants, or children of migrants. They are native to the soil of Pakistan as much as Chaunsa Mangoes.

But they get killed, discriminated everyday. I take it you read news?

 

[war&peace]

Citizenship is a privilege - Whether they came yesterday or two generations ago your are obligated (which is recieved through your anticedent) to respect and adhere to the laws of the state you live in.

My father came to UK and was given UK citizenship. By coming here and having citizenship conferred on him was a honour. His swore a oath to the Queen and with obligations he also earned rights. Those were conferred on me and mine rights (obligations) will be conferred to my children. About two years ago my brother went to Kazakstan on business and he got taken very ill. We were in UK worried as Kazakstan is ex Soviet Republic on other side of the world and very few Kazaks speak English with Russian being dominant. As soon as British Embassy found out they sorted out emergency medical care for him and then even made arrangements for him to be brought back to UK. My brother was not ethnic English but as he says being a citizen of UK meant he was suddenly accorded full help of the British state - help that the Pakistan state would never service to it's citizens even if they are "natives".

Nice incident that brother problem but that does not prove anything. It has nothing to with the religion rather about how developed, powerful and rich a country is. When Muslims had powerful govt, they also sent an army to recover a single lady and in the process captured a whole new region.
Furthermore the word "native" is also a relative term it just depends where you draw the line and by that all the white caucasian invaders should leave USA because they are not natives either and they have a lot of problems with them, does the same principles apply there?. Rules can be challenged in the courts of justice and there are other ways to protest against including but not limited to civil disobedience.

Secularism is concept. Precisely how it is applied is open to interpretation. Just like in Islam we have some many interpretations the same applies to secularism. History, culture, institutions, politics all go to inform exactly the nature of and precise contours of secularism. Certainly secularism as practiced in France is differant from as is in UK and even more so as is in Russia. We even have totalitarian versions like in China. Where they will thrash your backside and then send you home crying.

France is a soveriegn state. The French people died in millions building it and protecting it. They have the absolute right as to the nature of secularism. That does not mean I agree with it but their law making body is soveriegn.

I am talking about the fundamental principles accepted by the majority like ISIS mentality was rejected by the vast majority of Muslims around the world as it goes against the fundamentals of Islam. By the way, the statement about China is incorrect especially now. I have Pakistani friends studying in China and they tell me that those are all false and propaganda by the West ( but it is slightly on the tangent to the topic).

They don't have to. A Christian's value in Pakistan is slightly less than my Alsatian dog. Ditto for others. The Ahmedis, well their value is less than that of stray dog. Shoot a stray dog in UK will probably create more ruckus than wasting a Ahmedi in Pakistan. In fact the public will come out a declare you a hero.

The last. I mean the last people who have right to talk about rights of citizenship is Pakistani's. And by the way those Hindu, Christian, Ahmedi's are not even migrants, or children of migrants. They are native to the soil of Pakistan as much as Chaunsa Mangoes.

But they get killed, discriminated everyday. I take it you read news?

But clung so hard to Pakistan since it gave you some leverage to drive your point but you forgot and I mentioned by PM/(head of the state) of any Muslim country. I can refute your claims as I know Qadiyanis are still powerful and occupy a lot of key positions in the bureaucracy and other institutions especially given the size of their community.

What about UAE, Turkey ?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

It has nothing to with the religion rather about how developed, powerful and rich a country is

Who is talking about religion here. I thought this was about secularism? And Muslim is not a country. I refuse to purchase this notion of "Muslim" within the referance of states - which are modern legal constructs and quite at odds with Islamic law. There is not single state today that drives it's definition from or shape from Islamic law.

But clung so hard to Pakistan since it gave you some leverage to drive your point

I have roots in Pakistan. Thus my choice. And why would I not "cling" to where I find it convenient to do so. Unless this discussion is framed within referance set by you?

What about UAE, Turkey

UAE is a hell hole for all outsiders except from Europe or America. It is country that denominates people on a scale of 1-10. with most Pakistani's being accorded 1 and Americans 10.

Turkey does far better but then it is odd man out. Turkey has liberally swallowed huge dollops of Western thinking - including secularism.

"native" is also a relative term

Indeed it is. Like most things this is like you say relative. I used it within the meaning commonly understood notwithstanding the point you made about Native Americans. Which of course is true and I have pointed it out many times on this very board. I don't see things as binary. I am not saying West is utopia or the final arrival destination of civilization.

I have ran out of time but I will say this. This descriptor "Muslim" used in the context of political space is fraudulent at worse or lack cerebral strength at minimum. For the simple reason that this is the geographic space occupied by "Muslim". The differances are so great that you strugle to accomodate such a diverse group unless the denominator bar is set so low that it holds no currency.

Further, complete unity within Muslims has never existed other than fleeting moments in time. Internal dischord was the rule rather than exception. In most Muslim countries people will only get married within their own tribes or clans. Going outside it means blood feuds. This is the actual reality on the ground.

Yet some people take leave from senses and articulate a existance that has no fact in reality. You might as well say "brown eyed people" and carry as much traction as a descriptor. The reality is the "Muslim" are riven along ethnic, tribe, sect, nation and so many other dividers.

The only time this term (Muslim in the politiocal sphere)) is usefull is when terrorists carry out their acts or likes of Trump want to lampoon people as scapegoats. It is a convenient punching bag or convenient romantic dream depending on the person who holds the view.