misfortune of Pakistan - Why are we beggers ?

[Developereo]

Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran were the countries that top the list of countries with the overall highest levels of restriction on religion.

I am not sure how they arrived at those rankings. Pakistan probably made the list only because of the idiotic ruling against Qadyanis (Ahmadis) declaring them as non-Muslims.

From my experience growing up in Karachi, non-Muslims, especially Christians, Parsis (Zoroastrians) and even Hindus are perfectly normal, first-class citizens. They have their churches and temples, their festivals and even their own schools. In fact, Christian missionary schools are considered especially desirable because they have higher academic standards than the ordinary public schools.

I went first to a Christian missionary school, then to a Parsi school, and we had people of all religions getting along just fine. Religion didn't even enter the conversation except during festivals and such.

Back in the 80s we even used to see Christmas mass on national TV. To put that in perspective, it would be like ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox showing a Muslim Eid sermon live throughout the nation.

 

[SQ8]

YOu mention some very very important points... Let me discuss them a little...

1. The Iranian revolution did result in the Army and specially the Army top brass getting hanged... There are a few things to understand here... The public opinion counts a lot in any revolutionary change in a country... The problem for the Army was that it was trying to keep itself neutral in the conflict between popular opinion and the Shah but it simply could not do this because it had a state protective role as well and some elite Generals who were totally secular like the Shah himself... So you had episodes where common people were killed by the military during protests against the Shah... This created a dangerous public opinion against the Iranian military and so the Mullahs could do what they did... i.e kill everyone...

2. What I m saying here may make some of you laugh... but a lot of people dont understand that Iran is not an Islamic state... It implements Capitalism in its economic system and has become a Theocracy replacing a Monarchy... Capitalism, Monarchy and Theocracy are all non Islamic systems... This much is perceived and can be understood by the people... the real shocker is that the Iranian revolution was backed by the CIA!!!! They had to crush the military by killings to create a new elite within Iran i.e the Ayotollahs instead of the Shah and his military...

I wont go into the details of this here... If my statement shocked you (which I m guessing it did) then google is your friend Ahmedinijad despite all his posturing is helping the Americans tremendously...

3. The call for Army helping Pakistan is not a sarcastic statement... I was being serious there... I say this because the Army is a source of great power in the Muslim world... in most Muslim countries be it Egypt, Pakistan etc the military not only has experience in armed conflict but also has directly ruled thru dictatorship governments (again all with great blessings of the US of A... the great champion of Democracy in the world)...

4. I would like to give a little Islamic historical context here... We all know that our master Muhammad saw was insulted, attacked, beaten and rejected by his own people in Mecca where he suffered at the hands of the idol worshippers for 13 years.... What happened then? It was the Ansar of Medina who heard about him... met him... and accepted his invitation to Islam... gave him the pledge of loyalty and allegiance and the rest is our glorious history... The point I m trying to make here is that when you hear someone these days talking about the Pakistani Army to stand up for defending the honor and dignity of Pakistan/Muslims it can be considered as those early Muslims from Mecca being helped by the Ansar of Medina...

5. As for the question of military suffering as a result of change or being butchered by Mullahs... that could happen if America wanted to destroy Pakistan using a revolution similar to Iran... We know a lot of the Mullahs in Pakistan are in the pockets of America anyway... the public anger is there against the rulers as well... the last thing we need now is this public anger being directed at the Pakistan's military as well... and a very popular leader like Khomeini... fortunately for us we dont have a Khomeini... However the Americans have tried to use the Yugoslavia plan to hurt Pakistan... Tahrik Taliban Pakistan is the most dangerous phenomenon we have faced in our entire history... because whatever the reasons for its coming about, it aims to target the Pakistani military!!! Dream for the enemies of Islam coming true...

6. So there... Although public opinion counts more than military power and backing... change in Pakistan should have the military actively involved in the process... Who says that we want the Generals in Pakistan hanged? (well perhaps Busharaf haha) No but seriously, the military should have nothing to fear from such a change... What is important is that the blue print for change should be understood by everyone... This can be done by discussions, media etc... What change do we really want in our land? and there should be no resort to violence... for our master Muhammad saw did not shed any blood when he came to Medina and started implementing the laws of Islam... Instead I think the military would be looked after even better in an islamic system rather than what we have today... a confused mix of Capitalism and Islam that serves nobody except our enemies...

We have suffered for such a long time that our people have become hopeless... but the reality is that if Japan and Germany can develop so quickly after being completely annihilated in second world war with two A Bombs dropped on Japan... why cant we develop and advance ourselves... This is why sometimes I read statements like "Americans are a hundred years ahead of us" and I start thinking if these people think we are using the Wright Brothers hardware... It has only been a hundred years since the first planes were flown and we think that we are a hundred years behind America?? This is very wrong brothers and I think we need to get rid of such slave mentality... I m not talking about anyone in particular here... I have heard such statements from many many people and its ludicrous...

Pakistan has huge resources and tremendous potential... The only thing is that we need to realize this potential... recognize the traitors amongst ourselves... setup a plan and work for that change... No need for killings and bloodshed... The only battle allowed here would be the battle of ideas... This is why we are here anyway... to discuss is nt it?

....

Lastly and perhaps most importantly... we should stop treating the military as brainless killing machine only... Our soldiers are as much human as ourselves and they too are affected by the reality on the ground... they also have political and ideological ideas... this does affects the military's professional focus i.e defending our land... It is this issue that resulted in Musharaf allowing the US to bomb our own country using their drones and not generating an increase in a single megawatt of electricity in the 8 years that he was in power... So dont lose your professional focus but perhaps it should be said that thinking about a policy where the unused land in our country controlled by the snake Feudal Lords could be put to good use in Agriculture is also defending this country in a way... I m all for politicizing each and every soldier with the Islamic ideology... If the military has no interest in ruling (which is fine) then at least they should back the right people into power...

Right enough said... Who is willing to support my coup!!!!

1. Musharraf's last days were exactly reminicent of the Shah's last era, and google is a tool to find resources?.. the other option is to speak to an Iranian citizen who was present during the revolution.
I happen to know a certain Mr Behram who was present during those times.. his testimony( a little pro Shah for my taste since his family was part of the Shah's supporters and acquaintances) does concur with most literature regarding the Iranian revolution and especially its last days. One can speculate a similar result had the Army leadership not asked Mr Mush to step out to prevent such a populist uprising. Otherwise chances are there would be another Maulana something being quasi worshiped through the streets of Pakistan today for bringing in "True" Islam and "Khilafat".


2. While that may be true on the front of military development. It also deprived the United states of a dependable oil supplier. Ahmedinijad is assisting the US unwillingly in its foreign policy goals but at the same time is a thorn for his unpredictable nature( or those of his advisers).

3. Army a great power for the Muslim world.. hmm.. might I mention that which is a result of professional training and indoctrination and less to do with religion. This source of pride for the Muslim world also has its leadership filed with some of the richest men in Pakistan. Not to mention dedicated clients for a certain supplier of Alcoholic beverages I had the chance to meet. Islam has nothing to do with their duties or professional attitude. And, contrary to "experience" gained from governance in dictatorship. There are very senior officers who can if they wish stand testament to the fact that during Musharraf's and Zia's Tenure there were young captains who had spent more time applying newly acquired MBA's in WAPDA then on deployment to forward posts(although this changed overnight with Kiyani and many of these warfare green horns were shipped off to the front and deliberately put into places like Thar and Waziristan).
Running the country is not the Army's job.. protecting it is. They may topple governments and plant others in its place.. but no more.

4. The Pakistan Army is anything but like the Ansar, also.. whilst the opinion about the Ansar with the Mohajireen was unanimously positive, it isn't the same case in Pakistan.

5.Agreed

6.I do want a few hanged, however most of them are now retired. But it would be folly to believe that there would be a confetti parade for the Army in Balochistan if it took over.
The rest we all know, but will still go home and run a traffic light on the way.. pay off the traffic warden if stopped with a bribe, cheat taxes, Buy overprices sugar and tainted meat, set the TV for our mothers so that they can watch their Indian Soap opera.. Talk of Khilafat and the curse of western culture while our sister is out on a date with her boyfriend...and all the while, planning out next trip to pizza hut..
Hypocritical nations.. rarely reach their potential.. I admire your optimism, but also find it similar to Mr Zaid hamid's ideas.. Lofty and unrealistic.
Trying to bring parallels with the History of Islam's golden age and nations that are only Muslim by name.. isn't worth it.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

1. Google is the tool to find the references to the statement that the Iranian revolution was backed by the CIA... Infact before Khomeini left France it was reported by the IHT that the head of the FBI visited him and met him!!!! Similarly to this date the Americans maintain that the Iran Contra affair had no US government involvement rather it was done by rogue CIA agents... Join two and two here... I dont have to speak to a Mr Behram because I was there during the Iranian revolution (although too young to remember anything... but my father who was working there at that time used to tell us about those days)... The point that you mention about the Army leadership telling Mr Mush to take a hike is very valid and it also goes to show that the military should at least on its top levels have a very astute understanding of politics and should have a wing for public relations as well as positive propaganda...

As for "true islam"... Khomeini had a problem with that... which was because Iran being Shia and Shia have limited "true islam" with only twelve Imam... Khomeini solved the problem by presenting the idea of Walayat Ul Faqih which means that there should be rulership of the Islamic scholars (because they understand Islam best)... This he said would be the middle step before Imam Mahdi comes to power...

2 I agree with you about Ahmedinijad... He is certainly a loose canon... but the fact that Iran is not making use of the situation that America finds itself in today says to me that there are influentials in Iran who are totally allied to the US... for instance Iranians can unleash total hell for the Americans (if they wanted to do so) using the Shia within Iraq...

3. Santro yaar... Of course training is part of the equation... but also our soldiers are not just another trained army... they are also muslims and deep down they know that in any battle and conflict they are either Ghazi or Shaheed... That is very different from a soldier who goes around cutting fingers for trophies and destroys other countries to steal their oil...

4. I know this too well Santro... It is sad is nt it... I have actually talked a little about such Generals in our country on this very forum... The kind who teach their daughters to hate all notions of Islam and love everything that is western... I met this General's daughter in the UK whose name is Janat BB but goes around calling herself Janet... What you are saying is all true... and this is most unfortunate... The top brass in the army of Pakistan is as corrupt as the Zardari's and Sharif's on the civilian side... I would say this to you though that there are good people too... and one can always hope better people in the younger generation

As for the military working in Wapda... well as I said before the Army should not rule but only back the right people into power... The reason I gave the example of Ansar was this... consider this carefully... before Ansar accepted Islam they too were fighting amongst each other all the time and had all sorts of problems... but once they pledged allegiance to Muhammad saw they became like brothers... their role again was not of ruling but protecting Muhammad saw and fighting for Islam... So look at the Army today... If they have problems that does not mean that they have no connection with Islam at all... infact none of our Generals has killed any Muslim whereas Khalid Bin Waleed has killed Muslims in battlefield before he became a Muslim!!! so yes there are slaves of the west in Pakistan's army but not everyone is like that and they dont need to run the country... let them just support the right type of people into power... and also the Ansar were fully involved in the plan for Islam... the blue print for solving the problems so they used to learn the Quran just like the Muhajireen and were always part of the council of the prophet saw on issues... So once again I m not proposing that the Army should rule rather they should support the right people who have a vision to solve our problems and help the cause of Islam itself...

Also about the opinion with the Muhajireen being positive... well despite all our differences with the Army over corrupt Generals like Busharaf we still think highly of our soldiers... also the Army would only deal with the people who they support so they dont have to convince the whole country... I mean seriously if a person like Zardari can become the president of Pakistan, one could put a pumpkin or a donkey in the president's chair and it would make no difference... our poor people are so stuck in the day to day living that they hardly care about such things as politics... Let the Army support the right people with real brains... this sore opinion can change very quickly...

6. As I said... our nation is too hopeless sometimes though I wonder myself where does this optimism comes from... Let me tell you a hadith from the Musnad of Ahmed... (translation from Arabic obviously)

... there shall be Khilafat on the method of the prophet... then biting rulership... then oppressive rulership... then Khilafat on the method of the prophet!!!

It is said that the Ottomans kept trying to take Constantinople because they wanted to make the Hadith of the prophet a truth (A good army and a good leader shall liberate Constantinople)... That dream took hundreds of years before Sultan Fatih proved Muhammad saw correct... Lofty and unrealistic? Dont be too hopeless bhai... I m telling you this... Hold out your hand and stretch the fingers... how far away can your index and middle finger go from each other... we are this close to the reestablishment of the Khilafah once again... inshaAllah

I have my disagreements with Zaid Hamid... but do admire and support his efforts...

and as Iqbal said... Paywasta Reh Shajr Say Umeede Bahar Rakh

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Zaid Hamid and myself are not the only people who think this way... There are others...


http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...-musharraf-political-rally-2.html#post1180038

 

[Nagraj]

WTF!!!!
why would a country that has potential to become a force to recon with will think like this.
i request all pakistanis's on the forum to think positively.
and not to read too much into newspaper headlines

 

[ARSENAL6]

WTF!!!!
why would a country that has potential to become a force to recon with will think like this.
i request all pakistanis's on the forum to think positively.
and not to read too much into newspaper headlines

THey do have their corrupt politicains

 

[Developereo]

 

[Sinnerman108]

WTF!!!!
why would a country that has potential to become a force to recon with will think like this.
i request all pakistanis's on the forum to think positively.
and not to read too much into newspaper headlines

Thank you very much for your comment.

Believe we as a nation can not be perturbed by these thoughts, the love for our country and for our nationality by far surpasses any thing else.

So, this thread or the comments herein, will have no effect on our love and pride.

The objective of the thread is to Expose how the politicians have abused the country

To make sure this message tickles to the ordinary people, and let them take care of politicians.

 

[Nagraj]

^^^^
do let me know name of one country where politicians have not abused power????
leaders are integral part of any political setup.
abusing them (which i have seen as common trend in this thread) dosn't solve any purpose.
they are the once who understand politics and u can be sure no matter which form of govenment u choose they or their clones will run that setup not the ordinary man or women(being blunt i will say common people are incabable of understanding the complexities of politics).
won't it be better to choose the least corrupt ones among what is available
rather then abusing them??

 

[Developereo]

^^^^
do let me know name of one country where politicians have not abused power????
leaders are integral part of any political setup.
abusing them (which i have seen as common trend in this thread) dosn't solve any purpose.
they are the once who understand politics and u can be sure no matter which form of govenment u choose they or their clones will run that setup not the ordinary man or women(being blunt i will say common people are incabable of understanding the complexities of politics).
won't it be better to choose the least corrupt ones among what is available
rather then abusing them??

I think that's the important point.
Pakistanis, including myself, love to complain about the politicians but the fact is that the vast majority have learned to adapt to this reality.

Since the politicians are corrupt, the whole society decides to follow suit and corruption becomes an integral part of doing business. Instead of paying honest taxes to support the necessary civil infrastructure, the average person would rather cheat on his taxes and bribe the appropriate officials on a need-by-need basis.

And you almost cannot blame the average tax cheat given the endemic corruption in the system whereby taxes would most likely be siphoned off to some official's bank account rather than spent on public works.

Bottom line: there is absolutely no accountability at any level in Pakistan and it's every man for himself.

 

[Patrician]

I do not know urdu

 

[Nagraj]

I think that's the important point.
Pakistanis, including myself, love to complain about the politicians but the fact is that the vast majority have learned to adapt to this reality.

Since the politicians are corrupt, the whole society decides to follow suit and corruption becomes an integral part of doing business. Instead of paying honest taxes to support the necessary civil infrastructure, the average person would rather cheat on his taxes and bribe the appropriate officials on a need-by-need basis.

And you almost cannot blame the average tax cheat given the endemic corruption in the system whereby taxes would most likely be siphoned off to some official's bank account rather than spent on public works.

Bottom line: there is absolutely no accountability at any level in Pakistan and it's every man for himself.

Dude rome or any other country was not built in a day.
look at china they started in 1960's . only now their hard work is showing results.

 

[Developereo]

I do not know urdu

Please honk gently; the nation is sleeping.

Dude rome or any other country was not built in a day.
look at china they started in 1960's . only now their hard work is showing results.

We have had 60 years.

Back in the 50s Ayub Khan had a development plan for Pakistan. We didn't follow it but South Korea copied our plan and executed it. Look at where they are now.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Please honk gently; the nation is sleeping.



We have had 60 years.

Back in the 50s Ayub Khan had a development plan for Pakistan. We didn't follow it but South Korea copied our plan and executed it. Look at where they are now.

And people can argue,
Ayub Khan's period is considered one of the better one's