Mirage-III ROSE, retrofitted for EW/ELINT role?

[Basel]

For ECM & ECCM roles PAF should develop JF-17s which is need of time and dorsal spine like our F-16s Block-52+ can be added on JF-17s which will allow it to accommodate more equipment.

Although as per @gambit more power will be needed for EW role and J-10 seem fit in it better.

 

[HAIDER]

I would say instead spending money on modernizing these weapon, it would be better to sell to third party, if anyone interested. Rather concentrate more on armed UAV.
Endorse fellow member suggestion to concentrate more on JF17 for surgical strikes. Its best and independent platform for PAF.

 

[Fahad Khan 2]

I think we should sell these old birds to some needy African country there is no use to spent more money on it... Don't make it W-11 bus for PAF old frames and engine just use rose upgrade till 2015 or 2016...

 

[Dazzler]

ROSE 1, 2, 3 will remain in service 2020 onwards due to upgrades undertaken, less airframe fatigue/ plenty of spares, rest of them will gradually be retired.

Naval PA2,3s maybe the first to go, replaced by jft blk 2 as depicted in recent 50th jft induction pics.

 

[rockstar08]

i thought Paf already plan to give mirages to PN ? if not than with little upgrades they can serve till 2016-2018 it can provide numbers .... my opinion is not to dis commission all of them

 

[Malik Alashter]

Depends on the PAF's scope of air combat doctrines. The EF-111 and its cousins were created because we did not want to fight a defensive air war. A dedicated jammer is best when used offensively -- taking the EW fight to the enemy. Prevent him from taking off in the first place by destroying his air force on the ground.

Electronic Warfare is about denying the enemy the ability to (re)direct and re(focus) his weapons. The analogy is blinding him or doing something to force him to close his eyes, not about blocking his punches and kicks. That means if you are going to develop a dedicated jammer, your air combat doctrines must contain provisions to preemptively attack an enemy's air force which necessitate the company of an aircraft whose sole mission is to blind the enemy while your other aircrafts attacks the enemy's means of waging war. Those means could be an ammo factory, ships at docks, or an air base.

Personally, I am a strong supporter of a powerful dedicated EW platform and the willingness to strike deep into enemy territory. No better time than peacetime to start developing that capability, even with just a limited initial quantity.

So what an EW system consist of if you don't mind.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

So what an EW system consist of if you don't mind.

the term if you read already stands for electronic warfare system. which involves using the electromagnetic/ directed energy to blind the enemy defensive and offensive capabilities. in case of EW equipped aircraft, the targets will be SAM sites and radars etc.

specifically for EW role. it contains the jamming systems and Radar homing & warning System
so it blinds the enemy, takes away its advantages and makes itself and other aeroplanes difficult to target.
lookup EF-111A Raven for details
General Dynamics/Grumman EF-111A Raven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[airmarshal]

Modern EW equipment is big, bulky and power hungry. Where will you put it on MirageIII/V?

It's time to let these aircraft go.

Would be better if PAF developed a dedicated JF-17 in Wild Weasel role. Since all the hard points are MIL-STD compatible, they can carry EW equipment on hard points, plus modifying internal JF-17 structure to house more equipment. Since PAC already knows the design inside out, it would make more sense to have a dedicated JF-17 SEAD role aircraft like the USN F-18 Growler, and perhaps have these JF-17 with the AESA combination.

What is MIL-STD? Is it some kind of compatibility standard?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Mirage is sufficient for Pakistani needs for 10-13 years more

But we need

• Turkish Recon/Targeting pod (Close the Technological Gap)
  
• Add little GPS tracking with POD, GPS ammunition
• Move Mirage to Western Front & Coastal Areas

The plane is comparable to other fighters in market

Upgrade Cost : 150 Aselsan Targeting Pods $125 Million USD
Avionics/Enhancements : $50 Million for Local Pakistani Avionics Firm

It would also allow JF17 platform's block 2 to mature at its own pace for better engine etc more focused on Air-Air role

Can you imagine Mirage fleet with state of art Recon/Targeting/EW Pods
Big boost for ground support and precision targeting of ground assets

Armed with Laser Targeting

 

[gambit]

@gambit

* How hard it is to have powerful EW equipment shaped into pods. Not talking about self protection pods?

* How is energy managment done?

The main limitation with self protection systems is user flexibility, meaning your system must cater to the lowest common denominator.

The aircraft must be able to accept and use the pod, of course, but unless the customer specified your system is to be used by a two-man aircraft, thereby dividing the workload in combat, you must design your system to be operated by a single pilot. If the pod is going to be used by a two-man crew, great, but because you originally designed your system to be used by a single pilot, you probably already built in automated operations that deny the pilot certain situational flexibility that a second pilot could handle. That is why the F-111A was used to create the EF version, and that the A-6 airframe was lengthened by 1.3 meters to accommodate a four-man aircrew to operate the EA-6 Prowler version.

Every system must be custom designed and constructed, and this is where the cost and the technical difficulties lies. When you are integrating the system into the airframe, you are limited by existing physical structures that will dictate placements of components, aka 'black boxes', antennas, wiring harness locations, air cooling ducts routing, etc. You also have to consider maintenance accessibility. You simply cannot design a one-size-fit-all system outside of the external stores pod method. Aerodynamic drag is a serious technical hurdle. If your airframe integrated system is fore of the flight control surfaces, you have to consider any aerodynamic consequences that will affect the airflow quantity and pressure upon them and that will affect final aircraft performance.

The -111's weapons bay was large enough to allow multiple EW sub-systems and their antennas that can be swapped according to mission type. The antennas' transmissions can be directional, even in combat, and that is difficult to justify a design into a self protection pod that would demand attention from the pilot, as if he has not enough a workload already. You can enable the self protection pod with software that would respond (transmit) according to threat direction, but you would have to contend with the possibility that those transmissions are friendly, as in other fighters with their self protection pods transmitting away. That is why a dedicated EW platform should have a two-man crew with the second pilot as a SIGINT analyst/operator.

As far as energy management go...If the aircraft's own electrical system is powerful enough to have surplus, then there is no need to upgrade the original generators. However, if the system is designed like the newer EA-18 Growler, then the ram air turbine method for the ALQ-99 pods will work adequately.

* If you were given charge to do this task what would you change in the JF-17 lets say to turn it into a dedicated EW plane for jamming enemy's poweful radars and electronics infrastructure?

I would use the American Super Hornet as guide. Wing tips location are ideal for wide area transmissions, as in initial blanket of the targeted area to cover the attacking force. The various understores can be used for dedicated threats, such as the may freqs used by many types of radars. Or even something less spectacular but equally life-saving...

When Hornets Growl | Military Aviation | Air & Space Magazine

In one of the world’s poorest countries, where there are virtually no enemy missiles or anti-aircraft radars, the EA-18G might be a bit overqualified. But it can jam a Taliban cell phone call, or a signal from an electric garage-door opener intended to set off a roadside bomb. Some reports on the ground say that EA-6B Prowlers can now do “courtesy burns,” pre-flying the route of a truck convoy, emitting electrons all along to trigger buried explosives. The Navy offers no comment on such a capability.

But while the US already did all of the hard work in finding out what works best, the aircraft modifications will not be easy...

And compared to the two-seat F/A-18F Super Hornet, a fully loaded G is 1,400 pounds heavier, with 66 more antennas, an additional half-mile of wiring, and 1.5 million more lines of software code.

The E Super Hornet is single seat. The F version is two-seat. The EA-18 version with so much airframe modifications to it will never be anything other than an EWarrior.

If I am going to use the JF-17 single seat version, I would have a select group of pilots trained in being EWarriors, not air combat pilots. They would be selected after a fighter squadron certified them as combat ready, as in they would have the basic knowledge of tactical air combat, but from that point on, they would be trained in the tactical usage of EW and that would be their sole mission.

For the JF-17 two-seater version, I would have something like the US Navy's naval flight officer (NFO) who are not formally trained as pilots but rather as specialized operators.

 

[Kompromat]

@gambit

Let me sink this in, i'll bug you with more questions later.

 

[fatman17]

ROSE 1, 2, 3 will remain in service 2020 onwards due to upgrades undertaken, less airframe fatigue/ plenty of spares, rest of them will gradually be retired.

Naval PA2,3s maybe the first to go, replaced by jft blk 2 as depicted in recent 50th jft induction pics.

good hint....

 

[porris]

it would be better if we keeping thing thing in mind that a bird is in hand is better then in the busher.We must keep our focus on JF-17 thunder by making it better day by day by our own modifications just as France did to its mirages .We have have mirages and if we modified them to EW/Elint standard it will be good but not to all of them to be upgraded we must make JF-17 too do this job for us too

 

[Nishan_101]

ROSE 1, 2, 3 will remain in service 2020 onwards due to upgrades undertaken, less airframe fatigue/ plenty of spares, rest of them will gradually be retired.

Naval PA2,3s maybe the first to go, replaced by jft blk 2 as depicted in recent 50th jft induction pics.

PAC just need to produce enough JF-17 Block-II like 100-150 to replace all of the Mirages now...

 

[porris]

we must rely in JF-17 just as France did on Mirages we must concrate on JF-17 more than Mirages ,F-16 and also try to purchase / transfer of technology helicopter too

it would be better if we use these avionics on JF-17s

we must collaborate with turkey to make these things at home and further enhance the capabilities of our fighter planes by searching else where through transfer of technology