Mirage, F-7PG and other combat aircrafts
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mourning sage
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Tajdar adil
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What are the capablities of the F 7pg and Mirages.
jagjitnatt
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At this moment, I don't think they have any capabilities when compared to modern aircraft.
They are like Indian Mig-21s. Just waiting to be phased out. No good in today's world.
Mirages III, and Mirage V with F7s will never be able to take on the Mig29s, Mirage 2000s, Su30s etc. They only have a chance on the Mig 21s
So in other words..the F-86 that took down the Mig-21.. should have had no chance?
The intangible factors have been ignored in that statement of yours.
Including what equipment capability will be used to for what?
How did the Mig-21's of India pose the maximum threat to the American F-15's in cope India..even those armed with AESA..?
It is how they were employed.
Technology is a massive factor.. yet none of the jets you mention are beyond touch of current status of the PAF mirage or F-7 fleet.
You seem to take your conclusion that both sides will have NOTHING supporting their equipment.. no GCI,no radar coverage..no picture..no intercept control..no tactics..nothing.
The Mig-25 should have been easy target for the F/A-18's in the Iraq war..the hornets had BVR weapons....AWACS coverage...yet
the iragi fighter managed a kill with 30 year old weapons.
Storm Force
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Santro.
Your argument is correct only partially re PAF having GCI or OTHER factors playing a part in a indo pak war to make mirage3 or F7 useful against MIG29 or SU30MKI or Mirage2000.
The problem for PAF is that 350 of the current 400 PAF fighters are either F7 OR MIRAGE3/5.
In other words 80% of the entire fleet
In contrast 400 of india,s 600 fighters are BVR capable including 125 mig21 bison. = 65% of fleet.
In this scenario GENERALLY speaking PAF pilots will be seriously disadvantaged.
" i APPRECIATE this is changing rapidley with 18 new F16 and Thunder induction"
But to replace 350 fighters ie MIRAGE3/5 & F7 will take 10 years minimum.
Your argument is correct only partially re PAF having GCI or OTHER factors playing a part in a indo pak war to make mirage3 or F7 useful against MIG29 or SU30MKI or Mirage2000.
The problem for PAF is that 350 of the current 400 PAF fighters are either F7 OR MIRAGE3/5.
In other words 80% of the entire fleet
In contrast 400 of india,s 600 fighters are BVR capable including 125 mig21 bison. = 65% of fleet.
In this scenario GENERALLY speaking PAF pilots will be seriously disadvantaged.
" i APPRECIATE this is changing rapidley with 18 new F16 and Thunder induction"
But to replace 350 fighters ie MIRAGE3/5 & F7 will take 10 years minimum.
True..
But what capabilities are those Fighters bringing?
Are you gauging them all as basic mig-21's?
Will the PAF send in its F-7's blind?
Are they going to duke it out..
Also.. to check your math on the numbers..
pakistan has about 140 F-7's..and a 160 mirages.. thats 300 out of a force of 400..450 combat jets.
Out of that.. 60 are F-7PG's..noted for their WVR prowess..HMS..and BVR IR capability.
Out of the mirages.. 60 or so of the Mirage III's are ROSE I..the rest are dual seaters.. ROSE I mirages are BVR capable(I wont use equipped as a similar useless debate just like the C4I thread will start up about known knowns and known unknowns).
The other side.. 50 or so of the Mirage 5 series are precision Day/night capable attack jets.. much like the M2K's..
The idea of no match makes sense if I say I want a F-7 to go against an MKI without any support.. no tactics.. over neutral territory.
But each piece of equipment in the PAF(and the IAF) has its supporting elements..designed to compensate for its deficiencies..and increase it impact in the combat zone.
Case in point.. again..the IAF mig-21's.. it wasnt just the Elta electronics..it was how it was flown by the pilots..embedded in the strike formation..hidden from interceptors..using its small frontal RCS to great effect.
But what capabilities are those Fighters bringing?
Are you gauging them all as basic mig-21's?
Will the PAF send in its F-7's blind?
Are they going to duke it out..
Also.. to check your math on the numbers..
pakistan has about 140 F-7's..and a 160 mirages.. thats 300 out of a force of 400..450 combat jets.
Out of that.. 60 are F-7PG's..noted for their WVR prowess..HMS..and BVR IR capability.
Out of the mirages.. 60 or so of the Mirage III's are ROSE I..the rest are dual seaters.. ROSE I mirages are BVR capable(I wont use equipped as a similar useless debate just like the C4I thread will start up about known knowns and known unknowns).
The other side.. 50 or so of the Mirage 5 series are precision Day/night capable attack jets.. much like the M2K's..
The idea of no match makes sense if I say I want a F-7 to go against an MKI without any support.. no tactics.. over neutral territory.
But each piece of equipment in the PAF(and the IAF) has its supporting elements..designed to compensate for its deficiencies..and increase it impact in the combat zone.
Case in point.. again..the IAF mig-21's.. it wasnt just the Elta electronics..it was how it was flown by the pilots..embedded in the strike formation..hidden from interceptors..using its small frontal RCS to great effect.
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Good points Santro.
To be fair to PAF they have used and trained with F7 & MIRAGE ROSE pl;anes for some considerable time. They will know how to utilise them to their max potential and to avoid being caught with their pants down.
BOTH SIDES i envisage would avoid big lossess in any air campaign because the loss of morale or face would too great to bear.
To be fair to PAF they have used and trained with F7 & MIRAGE ROSE pl;anes for some considerable time. They will know how to utilise them to their max potential and to avoid being caught with their pants down.
BOTH SIDES i envisage would avoid big lossess in any air campaign because the loss of morale or face would too great to bear.
Storm Force
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I thought the F7P nos are 120 & F7PG 55 PLANES = 175 in total.
335 of 400 = 77% of fleet stil very large me thinks
but will change this decade ..
335 of 400 = 77% of fleet stil very large me thinks
but will change this decade ..
Mani2020
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@storm force
25 jf-17 per year as of now also there are efforts to increase this number suppose after 2010 we have 25 jf-17's and in 2011 the number increases to 30per year and same number for 2012 then 35 in 2013 same number in 2014 eventually 40 in 2015 so
in 5 year time i.e 2015 we will have 25 +30+30+35+35+40 = 195 jf-17's at the end of 2015 also fc-20 deliveries will start somewhere around 2014 so in 2015 we will have 36 fc-20's
195 jf-17's + 36 Fc-20 = 231
i think that number will be enough to replace f-7 non PG's and non ROSE mirages and not to forget we are currently negotiating for more f-16's
post 2015 we will have jf-17's,fc-20's f-16's and f-7pg's
25 jf-17 per year as of now also there are efforts to increase this number suppose after 2010 we have 25 jf-17's and in 2011 the number increases to 30per year and same number for 2012 then 35 in 2013 same number in 2014 eventually 40 in 2015 so
in 5 year time i.e 2015 we will have 25 +30+30+35+35+40 = 195 jf-17's at the end of 2015 also fc-20 deliveries will start somewhere around 2014 so in 2015 we will have 36 fc-20's
195 jf-17's + 36 Fc-20 = 231
i think that number will be enough to replace f-7 non PG's and non ROSE mirages and not to forget we are currently negotiating for more f-16's
post 2015 we will have jf-17's,fc-20's f-16's and f-7pg's
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Mani2020.
Don,t take this the wrong way.
But your delivery schedules are wat to optimistic you have been listening to children posters on PDF for too long.
I acknowledge that PAF will one day deploy 150+ Thunders i have no doubt in this at all.
But hear me out.
Firstly the current PAF plan is to induct 50 planes by 2012-2013 these are the 8 prototypes handed in 2008-2009 for ioc testing by china. Followed by 42 ordered upon ioc in March 2010.
Beyond that the production nos and delivery dates are pure speculation. These are not GOP or PAF schedules any way beyond the first 50..
To be fair the PAF are far too professional and careful to simply order 195 planes until block 2 and 3 steady development as taken place.
This development includes.
1. Induction and complete testing of SD10 BVR missle (this has not happened yet current 14 thunders are WVT PL9 missles only)
2. New chinease engine stil being developed and tested on thunder as we speak.
3. Future AESA radar for both Thunders and FC20. stil in deveopment stage
Another very important point is that PAF are stil actively looking at F16 SECOND HAND fighters FROM EUROPE scarce funding maybe diverted to this project if F16/50 are sought from europe or elsewhere.
There is also the FC20 PROJECT BEYOND 2015 wat if the gap between FC20 is so big over Thunder that PAF choose more FC20 over fewer Thunders.
FINALLY IF MMRCA goes to Typhoon or F18 S/H in india PAF MAY STIL choose other options as well.
The indo pak stand off is ever changing/ a moving goalpost. PAF does not enjoy the luxury of a $30 billion defense budget like india they have to take each step very carefully
AND I BELIEVE THIS IS WAT THEY ARE DOING ALREADY.
Don,t take this the wrong way.
But your delivery schedules are wat to optimistic you have been listening to children posters on PDF for too long.
I acknowledge that PAF will one day deploy 150+ Thunders i have no doubt in this at all.
But hear me out.
Firstly the current PAF plan is to induct 50 planes by 2012-2013 these are the 8 prototypes handed in 2008-2009 for ioc testing by china. Followed by 42 ordered upon ioc in March 2010.
Beyond that the production nos and delivery dates are pure speculation. These are not GOP or PAF schedules any way beyond the first 50..
To be fair the PAF are far too professional and careful to simply order 195 planes until block 2 and 3 steady development as taken place.
This development includes.
1. Induction and complete testing of SD10 BVR missle (this has not happened yet current 14 thunders are WVT PL9 missles only)
2. New chinease engine stil being developed and tested on thunder as we speak.
3. Future AESA radar for both Thunders and FC20. stil in deveopment stage
Another very important point is that PAF are stil actively looking at F16 SECOND HAND fighters FROM EUROPE scarce funding maybe diverted to this project if F16/50 are sought from europe or elsewhere.
There is also the FC20 PROJECT BEYOND 2015 wat if the gap between FC20 is so big over Thunder that PAF choose more FC20 over fewer Thunders.
FINALLY IF MMRCA goes to Typhoon or F18 S/H in india PAF MAY STIL choose other options as well.
The indo pak stand off is ever changing/ a moving goalpost. PAF does not enjoy the luxury of a $30 billion defense budget like india they have to take each step very carefully
AND I BELIEVE THIS IS WAT THEY ARE DOING ALREADY.
Manticore
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there are rumours that 2 prototypes of jxx have been made----who knows , by 2020 we might be negotiating for 2 /3 squadrons jxx ---- 10 years a lot of time to turn around the economy
who knows, once chinese start making jxx , they delegate production line of j10b to us
who knows what the output be of the new aeronatical complex
Posts number 666
who knows, once chinese start making jxx , they delegate production line of j10b to us
who knows what the output be of the new aeronatical complex
Posts number 666
Storm Force
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What is more likely.
50 Thunders @ $15n until 2013
50 Thunders mk2 @ $18m between 2013- 2016 (total order 100)
44 F16 MLU already here
18 F18 BL52 now here
14 F16 52 2011-2012
36 FC20 2015-2017 @ $30M EACH.
This wud give PAF ABOUT 200 MODERN FIGHTERS BY 2015-2016
50 Thunders @ $15n until 2013
50 Thunders mk2 @ $18m between 2013- 2016 (total order 100)
44 F16 MLU already here
18 F18 BL52 now here
14 F16 52 2011-2012
36 FC20 2015-2017 @ $30M EACH.
This wud give PAF ABOUT 200 MODERN FIGHTERS BY 2015-2016
correction..
the option on those 14 jets has not been exercized yet..
also.. there are two more lines for the JF opening up..
the PAF is commited to the jet and its growth..
and any changes will be on the line as it goes..
no pause in production schedule.
so the optimistic target of a 150 jets by 2015 may not be too unrealistic at all.
the option on those 14 jets has not been exercized yet..
also.. there are two more lines for the JF opening up..
the PAF is commited to the jet and its growth..
and any changes will be on the line as it goes..
no pause in production schedule.
so the optimistic target of a 150 jets by 2015 may not be too unrealistic at all.
mourning sage
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what king of BVR's can be fired from the mirages, F-7pg, etc....etc?
