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storm force tell you one thing in that israqel war pakistan at the end of war sended the pilots when israelis have edge over syrians than syrians requested for help we only sended few and all of them got in one piece and who ever got in their way in last days of war got only ashes and few only got away and pilots skills will not come with money if money can buy skills than world's richest brunai has better fighter pilots and singapore airforce pilots have better pilots they have best equipment but when they get against USAF,israelis,pakistanis they crummmble anyway do you have any history about indian airforce shot down any fighter jet after pakistani war none sorry u better get knowladge paf had got more kills than your uncle sam if paf never been regarded one of the best USA evey year turkey wont ask pakistan airforce to participate in exercises antolian eagle, red flag etc india in last 5 years got these exercise red flag pakistan is doing it since last 10 years or more and in exercise every airforce wants their opponent to be tough so they train their pilots at limmits and i think you also forgotten famous israeli pilots comments about paf who after war become israeli air chief that thank GOD that syrians and egyptians dont have fighter pilots caliber of paf
 
ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Pakistan Air Force has alleged that the Indian Unmanned Air Vehicle, shot down by Pakistan fighter jets two days ago inside Pakistan territory, was an Israeli 'spy' plane launched and operated by Israelis from India.
The 'spy' plane was being operated by Israelis and had manufacturing signatures of Israel Aircraft Industries, Chief of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshall Mushaff Ali Mir told reporters at an airbase near here at a special briefing on Monday.
He said the 'spy' plane did not have any Indian markings.
"It was an Israeli UAV. The Israeli operatives were using it for India," he alleged adding "this proved that Israel was directly helping India in seeking sensitive information about Pakistan through such UAVs".
Air chief Marshal Mir said spying was a normal practice during wartime and PAF was fully vigilant to prevent it.
Other PAF officials present at the briefing said an F-16 fighter jet shot the UAV at 13,000 feet, adding the plane was spotted by the mobile observation units when it crossed into Pakistani territory and was immediately gunned down even before it began reconnaissance of Pakistan's artillery positions in Punjab sector.



Shame on all those Indians who talk without knowledge. Please ask Abul Kalam if you don't believe me. Even today, significant amount of spares for Indian missiles are imported. Even the much talked about LCA (Light Combat Aircraft), engines are imported. India up to yesterday was having only Fiat & Ambassador cars - Is not that true? Look at the fleet of MIG fighter planes - India has lost more than what a country would lose in war - reason? No spares and inability to repair! What are Indians boasting wants their hatred and atrocities over Israel to expand over to India also.
 
Sqn Ldr Alam was the Commanding Officer of No.11 PAF Squadron flying Sabres during the 65 Conflict. Most certainly the top scoring pilot of that particular War, Alam had notched up Four Confirmed Hunters and One Probable Hunter Kill during several encounters with the Indian Air Force. Undoubtedly an Experienced and skilled pilot, all his victims were Hunter fighters and by a coincidence, all the Hunters though shot down in different occasions belonged to the same Squadron. No.7 IAF "Battle Axes". Alam shot down his first Hunter on Sep 6th, 1965 in a raid on the Indian Air Field at Adampur. Intercepted by Four Hunters of the IAF, Alam got onto the tail of Sqn Ldr A K "Peter" Rawlley. Rawlley lost control of the aircraft trying to evade Alam and struck the ground and got killed. The very next day, Alam bought down two Hunters which were exiting from a raid on Sargodha. Both the Pilots, Sqn Ldr Bhagwat and Fg Off J S Brar were killed. Alam scored again in the war on Sep 16th, while leading a raid on the airfield at Halwara. Alam bought down Fg Off Farokh Bunsha's Hunter although losing his wingman to another Hunter in the process.
Alam's feat of being the top scorer of the conflict is however marred by his inaccurate claims. At the end of the war, he had put in claims for Nine Hunters shot down whereas Indian Records do not support it. and this was made worse by the wartime propaganda efforts. In reality Alam has Four Confirmed kills. there is a dispute about another Hunter loss, Sqn Ldr O N Kacker who ejected in Pakistan on Sep 7th, is credited to Alam, by the PAF. The Indian Air Force says otherwise, Kacker was lost miles away from the area where Alam claimed his kill. The debate rages on. If Alam did shoot Kacker down, then He can rightfully claim to be the first Jet Ace from the Subcontinent.

In the final reckoning, there is no doubt that Alam remains the top scoring pilot of the Pakistan Air Force in its wars against India. Alam did not fly in the 71 Conflict.


storm force here is a crushing answer for your comments wait more on pending
 
Rafiqui opened up the Air War in 1965 when he led a two Sabre Formation that intercepted a formation of Four Vampires from the composite No.45/220 Indian Air Force Squadron. Rafique shot down two Vampires flown by Sqn Ldr A K Bhagwagar and Bharadwaj and while his Wingman shot down another flown by Flt Lt V M Joshi. A lone aircraft from the this ill-fated Vampire formation flown by Fg Off Sodhi made it back to the base.
Rafiquis third kill came on Sept 6th, when he led a raid on the Halwara airbase. He jumped the Hunter CAP at Halwara and shot down Fg Off P S Pingale, who ejected soon after his aircraft got hit. But Rafiqui himself became a victim soon after , he failed to see that Pingale's wingman had worked back onto his tail and attacked him . Fg Off A R Gandhi managed to damage Rafiqui's aircraft. In the last desperate throes of his doomed Sabre, Rafiqui tried to eject, but his aircraft hit the ground before he could do so.

He was awarded the Sitara E Juraat for Bravery and the Hilaal E Juraat for Leadership.
 
Saiful Azam is a not heard of much in aircombat. Azam has the unique distinction of having kills against airforces of two different countries. as a young flying officer during the 65 Conflict, Saiful Azam managed to shoot down an IAF Gnat on Sept 18th, a rarity as such the Gnat was seldom lost in Aircombat. his victim Fg Off V Mayadev ejected to become a POW.
Azam participated two years later in the Arab Israeli conflict of June 1967. deputed to the Royal Jordanian Air Force, flying Hunters, the RJAF Hunters were flown out to the Iraqi Airbase of H-3 in an attempt to put them out of range of Israeli Air Force. It was here he accomplished a unique feat, flying in a Hawker Hunter as a No.2 His formation intercepted an Israeli formation of Four Vautours and Two Mirage IIIs. One of the Mirage IIIs was flown by Capt. Gideon Dror. Dror shot down Azam's Wingman, but himself fell to Azam's Guns. Dror ejected to be taken POW. Moments later, Azam intercepted the formation of four Vantour Bombers and bought down one of them flown by Capt Golan, who ejected. . Azam had earlier bought down a Super Mystere the previous day over Jordan. Azam , being a Bengali did not fly in the 71 conflict.

In the final reckoning Azam ties up with Alam in terms of kills, but his tally has a range of kills including the enviable credit of a Mach 2 Mirage III Fighter.

Confirmed Kills : 4



.
 
Pakistani Air Force has won every encounter against the Indian Air Force
HeavyMetal 3/13/2005 3:42:30 AM

Indian resources have naturally refuted and denied PAF air superiority over the FIVE times larger IAF in the 65 and 71 wars. Indian and Pakistani claims and counter claims are pointless on this subject as they tend to be biased and blurred with nationalism. The only way to assess this is through the neutral and qualified international opinion, which has now become aviation history. Check out autobiography of Gen. Chuck Yeagers (yes, the one who broke the sound barrier), who 'refereed' the 1971 war and flew up and down the region collecting wreckage of IAF aircraft shot down by the PAF. Here is what he says, "the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio knocking out 102 Indian jets and losing 34 of their own. I am certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks, documented them by serial numbers, identified the components such as engines and rocket pods" Now he is not exactly a Pakistani, is he?

Check out the following world reputed aviation journals.

USA - Aviation week & space technology - December 1968 issue.
"For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel.

UK - Air International - November - 1991
" the average PAF pilot is almost certainly possessed of superior skills when compared with, say, an average American pilot. As to those who are rated above average, they compare favourably to the very best "

Encyclopaedia of Aircraft printed in several countries by Orbis publications - Volume 5

"Pakistan's air force gained a remarkable victory over India in this brief 22 day war exploiting its opponents weaknesses in exemplary style - Deeply shaken by reverse, India began an extensive modernisation and training program, meanwhile covering its defeat with effective propaganda smoke screen.

If you feel more at ease with German and French, then also checkout the followings
Air Action (France) December 1988 and January 1989
Flugzeug (Germany) February (2) 1989

In addition to this, PAF put on show for inspection, its entire fleets after BOTH of the wars in presence of world dignitaries and aviation community. The five times bigger IAF should have annihilated the tiny PAF to prevent such displays!!!!!!
Now these are FACTS - what rides on a wave of nationalism is just fiction

---------- Post added at 07:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 AM ----------

Well this is a shocking article I read. We all know that PAF pilots had an amazing kill ratio when they were going against Israeli pilots. something like 12 kills to zero. Until now everyone was thinking this was due to superior training, high morale and better reflexes and to an extent that is true but we still don't understand why the Arab pilots did so badly. We know they did badly because of the surprise factor and because they were not trained as well as the Israelis but if this story is true then it explains how some sneaky deception by the Mossad helped Israel to victory.

Bear in mind while it is hard to spray enemy territory without being detected it is not so hard to spike drinks and air vents with LSD-25 gas or something similar if you have an intelligence operative nearby or if the Mossad had the enough moles within Arab military structures.

And it raises another question, has India ever used this technique on Pakistan in some of the battles where they seemingly won without explanation? Would RAW have learned of this and then infiltrated living quarters of PAF personel so they could be LSD gassed just before a sneak attack
 
Gp Capt KAISER TUFAIL writes a fascinating account of PAF's effective but little known role in defence of Arab skies

Post-haste summons for volunteers found an eager band of sixteen PAF fighter pilots on their way to the Middle East, in the midst of the 1973 Ramadan war. After a gruelling Peshawar-Karachi-Baghdad flight on a PAF Fokker, they were whisked off to Damascus in a Syrian jet. Upon arrival, half the batch was told to stay back in Syria while the rest were earmarked for Egypt. By the time the PAF batch reached Cairo, Egypt had agreed to a ceasefire; it was, therefore, decided that they would continue as instructors. But in Syria, it was another story.
The batch in Syria was made up of pilots who were already serving there on deputation (except one), but had been repatriated before the war. Now they were back in familiar surroundings as well as familiar aircraft, the venerable MiG-21. They were posted to No 67 Squadron, 'Alpha' Detachment (all PAF). Hasty checkouts were immediately followed by serious business of Air Defence Alert scrambles and Combat Air Patrols from the air base at Dumayr.

Syria had not agreed to a ceasefire, since Israeli operations in Golan were continuing at a threatening pace. Israeli Air Force missions included interdiction under top cover, well supported by intense radio jamming as the PAF pilots discovered. The PAF formation using the callsign 'Shahbaz' was formidable in size - all of eight aircraft. Shahbaz soon came to stand out as one that couldn't be messed with, in part because its tactics were innovative and bold. Survival, however, in a jammed-radio environment was concern number one. As a precaution, the Pakistanis decided to switch to Urdu for fear of being monitored in English. Suspicions were confirmed during one patrol, when healthy Punjabi invectives hurled on radio got them wondering if Mossad had recruited a few Khalsas for the job!

After several months of sporadic activity, it seemed that hostilities were petering out. While the Shahbaz patrols over Lebanon and Syria had diminished in frequency, routine training sorties started to register a rise. Under these conditions it was a surprise when on the afternoon of 26th April 1974, the siren blasted from the airshafts of the underground bunker. Backgammon boards were pushed aside and the 'qehva' session was interrupted as all eight pilots rushed to their MiGs; they were airborne within minutes. From Dumayr to Beirut, then along the Mediterranean coast till Sidon, and a final leg eastwards, skirting Damascus and back to Base - this was the usual patrol, flown at an altitude of 6 km. The limited fuel of their early model MiG-21F permitted just a 30 minutes sortie; this was almost over when ground radar blurted out on the radio that two bogeys (unidentified aircraft) were approaching from the southerly direction ie Israel. At this stage fuel was low and an engagement was the least preferred option. Presented with a fait accompli, the leader of the formation called a defensive turn into the bogeys. Just then heavy radio jamming started, sounding somewhat similar to the 'takka tak' at our meat joints, only more shrill. While the formation was gathering itself after the turn, two Israeli F-4E Phantoms sped past almost head-on, seemingly unwilling to engage. Was it a bait?

Flt Lt Sattar Alvi, now the rear-most in the formation, was still adjusting after the hard turn when he caught sight of two Mirage-IIICJ zooming into them from far below. With no way of warning the formation of the impending disaster, he instinctively decided to handle them alone. Peeling away from his formation, he turned hard into the Mirages so that one of them overshot. Against the other, he did a steep reversal dropping his speed literally to zero. (It takes some guts to let eight tons of metal hang up in unfriendly air!) The result was that within a few seconds the second Mirage filled his gunsight, the Star of David and all. While Sattar worried about having to concentrate for precious seconds in aiming and shooting, the lead Mirage started to turn around to get Sattar. Thinking that help was at hand, the target Mirage decided to accelerate away. A quick-witted Sattar reckoned that a missile shot would be just right for the range his target had opened up to. A pip of a button later, a K-13 heat-seeker sped off towards the tail of the escaping Mirage. Sattar recollects that it wasn't as much an Israeli aircraft as a myth that seemed to explode in front of him. (The letter 'J' in Mirage-IIICJ stood for 'Jewish', it may be noted.) He was tempted to watch the flaming metal rain down, but with the other Mirage lurking around and fuel down to a few hundred litres, he decided to exit. Diving down with careless abandon, he allowed a couple of sonic bangs over Damascus. (Word has it that the Presidential Palace wasn't amused!) His fuel tanks bone dry, Sattar made it to Dumayr on the vapours that remained.

As the other formation members started to trickle in, the leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor anxiously called out for Sattar to check if he was safe. All had thought that Sattar, a bit of a maverick that he was, had landed himself in trouble. Shouts of joy went up on the radio, however, when they learnt that he had been busy shooting down a Mirage.

The Syrians were overwhelmed when they learnt that the impunity and daring of the Pakistani pilots had paid off. Sattar was declared a blood brother by the Syrians, for he had shared in shedding the blood of a common enemy, they explained!

Sattar's victim Captain M Lutz of No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor, ejected out of his disintegrating aircraft. It has been learnt that the Mirages were on a reconnaissance mission, escorted by Phantoms of No 1 Air Wing operating out of Ramat David Air Base. The Phantoms were to trap any interceptors while the Mirages carried out the recce. Timely warning by the radar controller (also from the PAF) had turned the tables on the escorts, allowing Sattar to sort out the Mirages.

The dogfight over Golan is testimony to the skills of all PAF pilots, insists Sattar, as he thinks any one could have got the kill had he been 'Shahbaz-8' on that fateful day. Sattar and his leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor, were awarded two of Syria's highest decorations for gallantry, the Wisaam Faris and Wisaam Shuja'at. The Government of Pakistan awarded them a Sitara-e-Jurat each. Sattar, an epitome of a fighter pilot, befittingly went on to command PAF's elite Combat Commanders' School and the premier PAF Base, Rafiqui. He retired recently as an Air Commodore.
SHAHBAZ OVER GOLAN
 
Just wait for the Red flag and you will find out how PAF is trained and how professional they are than the Flying army of Hanuman (IAF). last we heard that IAF at red flag were shooting down their own jets in simulated fights.
 
Just wait for the Red flag and you will find out how PAF is trained and how professional they are than the Flying army of Hanuman (IAF). last we heard that IAF at red flag were shooting down their own jets in simulated fights.

dont live in Past...today things are not the same like past ,

it is easy to be defensive... but trying offensive is not that easy. if all the kills that you mentioned are in deep inside Indian skys then they are really good. but if it is in your sky they are not that much great..

First of all you have have guts to enter into others territory knowing that you might not return( Not just surprise attack, try crossing all the defenses and engage the enemy). and second you should enter deep again and again (not just one surprise attack). If any of this is achieved then you can really be proud..

but PAF gave a strong defense and painful resistance to IAF that even IAF wont deny. How ever that doesn't mean IAF is poor. If PAF has tried to bomb delhi after the was has started ( not just surprise attack) then it would have faced the same resistance from IAF.

How many offensive sorties were carried out after first initial surprise attack and how many kills did PAF achieved within indian airspace . not on ground...


In defensive role you can have lot of surprise and you know your area like lines in your palm.but being offensive in your enemys airspace ,you will see lot of surprise. Surprise is the biggest weapon in air fight , even now it is, as time changed it has also changed its form.


Thanks for brining Hunuman, as per Hindu Mythology he is the most powerful, son of god Air... well it would be blessing for us to get airpower like him.

Let us be Hunumans airforce , I consider that as privilege :cheesy:
 
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Although PAF is a defensive Air Force in general but PAF does have offensive capability of which one is ALCM that gives Pakistan the offensive weapon of choice..
 
bro this time in 2010 mirage2000 is not on any country wish list . its now v.old . and production lines are closed in france. there is no new mirage2000 is in world. we need some thing like j-10 refale eu fighter and then we have to go in 5th gen fighter not to waste money on 30 years old jet.

Hey read my post again and then repli . I have said that if PAC has taken licence production of Mirage-2000s in 1986 in order to produce 200-250 jets and completing in 2000-2002, then it would be great for PAF now. and they could easily serve for about 35 years in our PAF. So in this way there might be no more Mirage-2000s in IAF and we would have gain BVR as well as Precision strike capbility by inducting those Mirages. These jets could be used in kargil conflit in a very effective way.
We could have reduced its induction and operating cost, by manufacturing 50% of airframe,engine and about 80% avionics components in PAC.
 
ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Pakistan Air Force has alleged that the Indian Unmanned Air Vehicle, shot down by Pakistan fighter jets two days ago inside Pakistan territory, was an Israeli 'spy' plane launched and operated by Israelis from India.
The 'spy' plane was being operated by Israelis and had manufacturing signatures of Israel Aircraft Industries, Chief of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshall Mushaff Ali Mir told reporters at an airbase near here at a special briefing on Monday.
He said the 'spy' plane did not have any Indian markings.
"It was an Israeli UAV. The Israeli operatives were using it for India," he alleged adding "this proved that Israel was directly helping India in seeking sensitive information about Pakistan through such UAVs".
Air chief Marshal Mir said spying was a normal practice during wartime and PAF was fully vigilant to prevent it.
Other PAF officials present at the briefing said an F-16 fighter jet shot the UAV at 13,000 feet, adding the plane was spotted by the mobile observation units when it crossed into Pakistani territory and was immediately gunned down even before it began reconnaissance of Pakistan's artillery positions in Punjab sector.



Shame on all those Indians who talk without knowledge. Please ask Abul Kalam if you don't believe me. Even today, significant amount of spares for Indian missiles are imported. Even the much talked about LCA (Light Combat Aircraft), engines are imported. India up to yesterday was having only Fiat & Ambassador cars - Is not that true? Look at the fleet of MIG fighter planes - India has lost more than what a country would lose in war - reason? No spares and inability to repair! What are Indians boasting wants their hatred and atrocities over Israel to expand over to India also.

i also told Storm Force the same thing about paf shooting down an indian uav but i think he does not understand it.:coffee:
 
storm force tell you one thing in that israqel war pakistan at the end of war sended the pilots when israelis have edge over syrians than syrians requested for help we only sended few and all of them got in one piece and who ever got in their way in last days of war got only ashes and few only got away and pilots skills will not come with money if money can buy skills than world's richest brunai has better fighter pilots and singapore airforce pilots have better pilots they have best equipment but when they get against USAF,israelis,pakistanis they crummmble anyway do you have any history about indian airforce shot down any fighter jet after pakistani war none sorry u better get knowladge paf had got more kills than your uncle sam if paf never been regarded one of the best USA evey year turkey wont ask pakistan airforce to participate in exercises antolian eagle, red flag etc india in last 5 years got these exercise red flag pakistan is doing it since last 10 years or more and in exercise every airforce wants their opponent to be tough so they train their pilots at limmits and i think you also forgotten famous israeli pilots comments about paf who after war become israeli air chief that thank GOD that syrians and egyptians dont have fighter pilots caliber of paf

ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Pakistan Air Force has alleged that the Indian Unmanned Air Vehicle, shot down by Pakistan fighter jets two days ago inside Pakistan territory, was an Israeli 'spy' plane launched and operated by Israelis from India.
The 'spy' plane was being operated by Israelis and had manufacturing signatures of Israel Aircraft Industries, Chief of the Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshall Mushaff Ali Mir told reporters at an airbase near here at a special briefing on Monday.
He said the 'spy' plane did not have any Indian markings.
"It was an Israeli UAV. The Israeli operatives were using it for India," he alleged adding "this proved that Israel was directly helping India in seeking sensitive information about Pakistan through such UAVs".
Air chief Marshal Mir said spying was a normal practice during wartime and PAF was fully vigilant to prevent it.
Other PAF officials present at the briefing said an F-16 fighter jet shot the UAV at 13,000 feet, adding the plane was spotted by the mobile observation units when it crossed into Pakistani territory and was immediately gunned down even before it began reconnaissance of Pakistan's artillery positions in Punjab sector.



Shame on all those Indians who talk without knowledge. Please ask Abul Kalam if you don't believe me. Even today, significant amount of spares for Indian missiles are imported. Even the much talked about LCA (Light Combat Aircraft), engines are imported. India up to yesterday was having only Fiat & Ambassador cars - Is not that true? Look at the fleet of MIG fighter planes - India has lost more than what a country would lose in war - reason? No spares and inability to repair! What are Indians boasting wants their hatred and atrocities over Israel to expand over to India also.

Sqn Ldr Alam was the Commanding Officer of No.11 PAF Squadron flying Sabres during the 65 Conflict. Most certainly the top scoring pilot of that particular War, Alam had notched up Four Confirmed Hunters and One Probable Hunter Kill during several encounters with the Indian Air Force. Undoubtedly an Experienced and skilled pilot, all his victims were Hunter fighters and by a coincidence, all the Hunters though shot down in different occasions belonged to the same Squadron. No.7 IAF "Battle Axes". Alam shot down his first Hunter on Sep 6th, 1965 in a raid on the Indian Air Field at Adampur. Intercepted by Four Hunters of the IAF, Alam got onto the tail of Sqn Ldr A K "Peter" Rawlley. Rawlley lost control of the aircraft trying to evade Alam and struck the ground and got killed. The very next day, Alam bought down two Hunters which were exiting from a raid on Sargodha. Both the Pilots, Sqn Ldr Bhagwat and Fg Off J S Brar were killed. Alam scored again in the war on Sep 16th, while leading a raid on the airfield at Halwara. Alam bought down Fg Off Farokh Bunsha's Hunter although losing his wingman to another Hunter in the process.
Alam's feat of being the top scorer of the conflict is however marred by his inaccurate claims. At the end of the war, he had put in claims for Nine Hunters shot down whereas Indian Records do not support it. and this was made worse by the wartime propaganda efforts. In reality Alam has Four Confirmed kills. there is a dispute about another Hunter loss, Sqn Ldr O N Kacker who ejected in Pakistan on Sep 7th, is credited to Alam, by the PAF. The Indian Air Force says otherwise, Kacker was lost miles away from the area where Alam claimed his kill. The debate rages on. If Alam did shoot Kacker down, then He can rightfully claim to be the first Jet Ace from the Subcontinent.

In the final reckoning, there is no doubt that Alam remains the top scoring pilot of the Pakistan Air Force in its wars against India. Alam did not fly in the 71 Conflict.


storm force here is a crushing answer for your comments wait more on pending

Rafiqui opened up the Air War in 1965 when he led a two Sabre Formation that intercepted a formation of Four Vampires from the composite No.45/220 Indian Air Force Squadron. Rafique shot down two Vampires flown by Sqn Ldr A K Bhagwagar and Bharadwaj and while his Wingman shot down another flown by Flt Lt V M Joshi. A lone aircraft from the this ill-fated Vampire formation flown by Fg Off Sodhi made it back to the base.
Rafiquis third kill came on Sept 6th, when he led a raid on the Halwara airbase. He jumped the Hunter CAP at Halwara and shot down Fg Off P S Pingale, who ejected soon after his aircraft got hit. But Rafiqui himself became a victim soon after , he failed to see that Pingale's wingman had worked back onto his tail and attacked him . Fg Off A R Gandhi managed to damage Rafiqui's aircraft. In the last desperate throes of his doomed Sabre, Rafiqui tried to eject, but his aircraft hit the ground before he could do so.

He was awarded the Sitara E Juraat for Bravery and the Hilaal E Juraat for Leadership.

Saiful Azam is a not heard of much in aircombat. Azam has the unique distinction of having kills against airforces of two different countries. as a young flying officer during the 65 Conflict, Saiful Azam managed to shoot down an IAF Gnat on Sept 18th, a rarity as such the Gnat was seldom lost in Aircombat. his victim Fg Off V Mayadev ejected to become a POW.
Azam participated two years later in the Arab Israeli conflict of June 1967. deputed to the Royal Jordanian Air Force, flying Hunters, the RJAF Hunters were flown out to the Iraqi Airbase of H-3 in an attempt to put them out of range of Israeli Air Force. It was here he accomplished a unique feat, flying in a Hawker Hunter as a No.2 His formation intercepted an Israeli formation of Four Vautours and Two Mirage IIIs. One of the Mirage IIIs was flown by Capt. Gideon Dror. Dror shot down Azam's Wingman, but himself fell to Azam's Guns. Dror ejected to be taken POW. Moments later, Azam intercepted the formation of four Vantour Bombers and bought down one of them flown by Capt Golan, who ejected. . Azam had earlier bought down a Super Mystere the previous day over Jordan. Azam , being a Bengali did not fly in the 71 conflict.

In the final reckoning Azam ties up with Alam in terms of kills, but his tally has a range of kills including the enviable credit of a Mach 2 Mirage III Fighter.

Confirmed Kills : 4



.

Pakistani Air Force has won every encounter against the Indian Air Force
HeavyMetal 3/13/2005 3:42:30 AM

Indian resources have naturally refuted and denied PAF air superiority over the FIVE times larger IAF in the 65 and 71 wars. Indian and Pakistani claims and counter claims are pointless on this subject as they tend to be biased and blurred with nationalism. The only way to assess this is through the neutral and qualified international opinion, which has now become aviation history. Check out autobiography of Gen. Chuck Yeagers (yes, the one who broke the sound barrier), who 'refereed' the 1971 war and flew up and down the region collecting wreckage of IAF aircraft shot down by the PAF. Here is what he says, "the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio knocking out 102 Indian jets and losing 34 of their own. I am certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks, documented them by serial numbers, identified the components such as engines and rocket pods" Now he is not exactly a Pakistani, is he?

Check out the following world reputed aviation journals.

USA - Aviation week & space technology - December 1968 issue.
"For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel.

UK - Air International - November - 1991
" the average PAF pilot is almost certainly possessed of superior skills when compared with, say, an average American pilot. As to those who are rated above average, they compare favourably to the very best "

Encyclopaedia of Aircraft printed in several countries by Orbis publications - Volume 5

"Pakistan's air force gained a remarkable victory over India in this brief 22 day war exploiting its opponents weaknesses in exemplary style - Deeply shaken by reverse, India began an extensive modernisation and training program, meanwhile covering its defeat with effective propaganda smoke screen.

If you feel more at ease with German and French, then also checkout the followings
Air Action (France) December 1988 and January 1989
Flugzeug (Germany) February (2) 1989

In addition to this, PAF put on show for inspection, its entire fleets after BOTH of the wars in presence of world dignitaries and aviation community. The five times bigger IAF should have annihilated the tiny PAF to prevent such displays!!!!!!
Now these are FACTS - what rides on a wave of nationalism is just fiction

---------- Post added at 07:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 AM ----------

Well this is a shocking article I read. We all know that PAF pilots had an amazing kill ratio when they were going against Israeli pilots. something like 12 kills to zero. Until now everyone was thinking this was due to superior training, high morale and better reflexes and to an extent that is true but we still don't understand why the Arab pilots did so badly. We know they did badly because of the surprise factor and because they were not trained as well as the Israelis but if this story is true then it explains how some sneaky deception by the Mossad helped Israel to victory.

Bear in mind while it is hard to spray enemy territory without being detected it is not so hard to spike drinks and air vents with LSD-25 gas or something similar if you have an intelligence operative nearby or if the Mossad had the enough moles within Arab military structures.

And it raises another question, has India ever used this technique on Pakistan in some of the battles where they seemingly won without explanation? Would RAW have learned of this and then infiltrated living quarters of PAF personel so they could be LSD gassed just before a sneak attack

Gp Capt KAISER TUFAIL writes a fascinating account of PAF's effective but little known role in defence of Arab skies

Post-haste summons for volunteers found an eager band of sixteen PAF fighter pilots on their way to the Middle East, in the midst of the 1973 Ramadan war. After a gruelling Peshawar-Karachi-Baghdad flight on a PAF Fokker, they were whisked off to Damascus in a Syrian jet. Upon arrival, half the batch was told to stay back in Syria while the rest were earmarked for Egypt. By the time the PAF batch reached Cairo, Egypt had agreed to a ceasefire; it was, therefore, decided that they would continue as instructors. But in Syria, it was another story.
The batch in Syria was made up of pilots who were already serving there on deputation (except one), but had been repatriated before the war. Now they were back in familiar surroundings as well as familiar aircraft, the venerable MiG-21. They were posted to No 67 Squadron, 'Alpha' Detachment (all PAF). Hasty checkouts were immediately followed by serious business of Air Defence Alert scrambles and Combat Air Patrols from the air base at Dumayr.

Syria had not agreed to a ceasefire, since Israeli operations in Golan were continuing at a threatening pace. Israeli Air Force missions included interdiction under top cover, well supported by intense radio jamming as the PAF pilots discovered. The PAF formation using the callsign 'Shahbaz' was formidable in size - all of eight aircraft. Shahbaz soon came to stand out as one that couldn't be messed with, in part because its tactics were innovative and bold. Survival, however, in a jammed-radio environment was concern number one. As a precaution, the Pakistanis decided to switch to Urdu for fear of being monitored in English. Suspicions were confirmed during one patrol, when healthy Punjabi invectives hurled on radio got them wondering if Mossad had recruited a few Khalsas for the job!

After several months of sporadic activity, it seemed that hostilities were petering out. While the Shahbaz patrols over Lebanon and Syria had diminished in frequency, routine training sorties started to register a rise. Under these conditions it was a surprise when on the afternoon of 26th April 1974, the siren blasted from the airshafts of the underground bunker. Backgammon boards were pushed aside and the 'qehva' session was interrupted as all eight pilots rushed to their MiGs; they were airborne within minutes. From Dumayr to Beirut, then along the Mediterranean coast till Sidon, and a final leg eastwards, skirting Damascus and back to Base - this was the usual patrol, flown at an altitude of 6 km. The limited fuel of their early model MiG-21F permitted just a 30 minutes sortie; this was almost over when ground radar blurted out on the radio that two bogeys (unidentified aircraft) were approaching from the southerly direction ie Israel. At this stage fuel was low and an engagement was the least preferred option. Presented with a fait accompli, the leader of the formation called a defensive turn into the bogeys. Just then heavy radio jamming started, sounding somewhat similar to the 'takka tak' at our meat joints, only more shrill. While the formation was gathering itself after the turn, two Israeli F-4E Phantoms sped past almost head-on, seemingly unwilling to engage. Was it a bait?

Flt Lt Sattar Alvi, now the rear-most in the formation, was still adjusting after the hard turn when he caught sight of two Mirage-IIICJ zooming into them from far below. With no way of warning the formation of the impending disaster, he instinctively decided to handle them alone. Peeling away from his formation, he turned hard into the Mirages so that one of them overshot. Against the other, he did a steep reversal dropping his speed literally to zero. (It takes some guts to let eight tons of metal hang up in unfriendly air!) The result was that within a few seconds the second Mirage filled his gunsight, the Star of David and all. While Sattar worried about having to concentrate for precious seconds in aiming and shooting, the lead Mirage started to turn around to get Sattar. Thinking that help was at hand, the target Mirage decided to accelerate away. A quick-witted Sattar reckoned that a missile shot would be just right for the range his target had opened up to. A pip of a button later, a K-13 heat-seeker sped off towards the tail of the escaping Mirage. Sattar recollects that it wasn't as much an Israeli aircraft as a myth that seemed to explode in front of him. (The letter 'J' in Mirage-IIICJ stood for 'Jewish', it may be noted.) He was tempted to watch the flaming metal rain down, but with the other Mirage lurking around and fuel down to a few hundred litres, he decided to exit. Diving down with careless abandon, he allowed a couple of sonic bangs over Damascus. (Word has it that the Presidential Palace wasn't amused!) His fuel tanks bone dry, Sattar made it to Dumayr on the vapours that remained.

As the other formation members started to trickle in, the leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor anxiously called out for Sattar to check if he was safe. All had thought that Sattar, a bit of a maverick that he was, had landed himself in trouble. Shouts of joy went up on the radio, however, when they learnt that he had been busy shooting down a Mirage.

The Syrians were overwhelmed when they learnt that the impunity and daring of the Pakistani pilots had paid off. Sattar was declared a blood brother by the Syrians, for he had shared in shedding the blood of a common enemy, they explained!

Sattar's victim Captain M Lutz of No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor, ejected out of his disintegrating aircraft. It has been learnt that the Mirages were on a reconnaissance mission, escorted by Phantoms of No 1 Air Wing operating out of Ramat David Air Base. The Phantoms were to trap any interceptors while the Mirages carried out the recce. Timely warning by the radar controller (also from the PAF) had turned the tables on the escorts, allowing Sattar to sort out the Mirages.

The dogfight over Golan is testimony to the skills of all PAF pilots, insists Sattar, as he thinks any one could have got the kill had he been 'Shahbaz-8' on that fateful day. Sattar and his leader, Sqn Ldr Arif Manzoor, were awarded two of Syria's highest decorations for gallantry, the Wisaam Faris and Wisaam Shuja'at. The Government of Pakistan awarded them a Sitara-e-Jurat each. Sattar, an epitome of a fighter pilot, befittingly went on to command PAF's elite Combat Commanders' School and the premier PAF Base, Rafiqui. He retired recently as an Air Commodore.
SHAHBAZ OVER GOLAN

million of thanks for all bro
 
dont live in Past...today things are not the same like past ,

it is easy to be defensive... but trying offensive is not that easy. if all the kills that you mentioned are in deep inside Indian skys then they are really good. but if it is in your sky they are not that much great..

First of all you have have guts to enter into others territory knowing that you might not return( Not just surprise attack, try crossing all the defenses and engage the enemy). and second you should enter deep again and again (not just one surprise attack). If any of this is achieved then you can really be proud..

but PAF gave a strong defense and painful resistance to IAF that even IAF wont deny. How ever that doesn't mean IAF is poor. If PAF has tried to bomb delhi after the was has started ( not just surprise attack) then it would have faced the same resistance from IAF.

How many offensive sorties were carried out after first initial surprise attack and how many kills did PAF achieved within indian airspace . not on ground...


In defensive role you can have lot of surprise and you know your area like lines in your palm.but being offensive in your enemys airspace ,you will see lot of surprise. Surprise is the biggest weapon in air fight , even now it is, as time changed it has also changed its form.


Thanks for brining Hunuman, as per Hindu Mythology he is the most powerful, son of god Air... well it would be blessing for us to get airpower like him.

Let us be Hunumans airforce , I consider that as privilege :cheesy:
Pakistan's strategy is always to protect and defend itseld from enemies like india. PAF just has to deny air superiority to iaf.
apart from that, and as far as my memory goes paf jets did storm into and destroyed iaf bases.:agree:
 
Since childhood i have learnt that PAF destroyed IAF.but got no real proof's.i know my own people will jump on me,but the fact is fact.we still lost 65,71.do we need to do some type of scrutiny over here?

Even MM.Alam's claim is debunked by his own squadron member.i have seen the list of fighter pilot he killed.when i went through neutral sources i was surprised to see his claims were rather false.i didn't even consider the iaf souces(they too write lot of crap).but if he really had gunned down 5 aircrafts then why would his own mate will go against him.in 65 many people keep on saying we had air superiority over iaf,then why couldn't we change the course of war.our army and air force fought bravely but we were not able to beat our no.1 enemy.why??

The thing is just by shooting down some air crafts can not rate us one of the world's best.we would have been the best if our air force could have manged to change the out come of the war.and i am sorry to say that didn't happen..yes they had given their 100% but we failed and that's the sad part.
 

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