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Mass Conversion To Christianity: A Case Study Of Chuhra Community In Sialkot District (1880- 1930)

I think that it's one's own choice and will, how he/she prioritizes and ranks his religious, national, ethnic and caste associations and identities, but than this ranking leads to making certain judgements on historical incidences and persons. Often, this process is subconscious, in nature.

For example, if a Muslim Punjabi gives a precedence to being Muslim, over his ethnic identity; than to him Ahmad Shah Abdali would most probably be a hero. In a converse situation, may be, Ranjeet Singh would assume this position.

Calling people Kafir, on such positionings, is unfortunate and unwarranted.
Actually true muslim is someone who is fair and take side of truth and justice even if he has to go against his own brother if he is on wrong side or if he is aggressor. Slogan of Islam was often used in the past for political power and for plundering others. You are assuming that all past Muslim rulers were just saints whose only motive was to serve just Islam and they had never violated any Islamic rules and principles which is always based on fairness without any material motive in mind.

Its not as simple as Muslim vs Non Muslim thing otherwise why Pakistani army would be fighting a war against talibans when boht claim claim to be Muslims... taliban considered themselves true Muslim before Pakistani/Afghani and according to their logic Pakistan army was playing in the hand of western kufr army so right to do jihad against them. Whom side you will pick if you consider yourself Muslim before Pakistani or Punjabi ? funny that our Pakistani Punjabi Muslims blindly praise Muslim, arab, afghan rulers by suppressing their ethnic Identity yet People in these countries are more proud of their identity of being arab, afghan and persian and consider others races as inferior lol look all these Afghan Iran and arab countries who have got better relationship with kufr countries (including our enemy India) than taking side of poor Muslim countries so political interests was more dear to them than their brothers

Calling people Kafir, on such positionings, is unfortunate and unwarranted.
Completely agree. Calling someone kufr will not make you a better Muslims. We should care about ourselves that how much Islam we have in our lives instead of labelling others and to worry about them
 
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Completely agree. Calling someone kufr will not make you a better Muslims. We should care about ourselves that how much Islam we have in our lives instead of labelling others and to worry about them

Good advice for all.

Posters should think this through before calling people fake anything.

Being declared Kafir by these clueless wannabes when they run out of arguments in a historical/political debate should be taken as a 'compliment' instead. By doing so, these bigots not only expose their bigotry, but ignorance and lack of knowledge also.

Yet you still can’t stop attacking people who disagree with you about nuances, which led him to point out your ideology (Quranist) and yet you continue judging people as true/false Muslim or Punjabi.

You are the biggest takfiri here. Just let things roll off and move on.

taliban considered themselves true Muslim before Pakistani/Afghani

Since when are Afghan Taliban and TTP the same?

There are dozens of Taliban groups, not all have the same goals, and many are enemies to each other.
 
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Since when are Afghan Taliban and TTP the same?

There are dozens of Taliban groups, not all have the same goals, and many are enemies to each other.
I was just trying to make a point . You can differentiate between good and bad Taliban's but truth is Pakistan army opposed boht because they challenged the writ of the state and wanted to implement their extreme illiterate version of Islam in throat of others by force. Secondly my point was that war is not always between Islam and kufr and there are different motives behind wars. Past wars was not all about Islam vs Hinduvs sikh but Muslims also fought against others Muslims i.e Afghan fought wars with Mughals, Muslims Rajputs fought wars with boht Mughals and Afghans inavders and some even fought among themselves for power i.e Gakkhar and Janjua Rajputs have been fighting among each others over control of salt region of PHOTOHAR. Some were allies of Mughal others showed resistance against them so history is not this simple
 
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Yet you still can’t stop attacking people who disagree with you about nuances, which led him to point out your ideology (Quranist) and yet you continue judging people as true/false Muslim or Punjabi.

You are the biggest takfiri here. Just let things roll off and move on.

lol at biggest Takfiri

I have never declared Takfir upon anyone in my entire life. I, unlike you lot, believe that it's for Allah alone to judge/decide that who is a Muslim (or who is not)...

And no, I did not attack anyone for disagreeing with me, I only pointed out the bigotry of those (including you) who declared Takfir on me when unable to bring forward any counter arguments/facts in a discussion that was not even about religion but history.

Now **** off and don't quote me again .... I have zero regards for Takfiris and sectarian bigots like you...

I was just trying to make a point . You can differentiate between good and bad Taliban's but truth is Pakistan army opposed boht because they challenged the writ of the state and wanted to implement their extreme illiterate version of Islam in throat of others by force. Secondly my point was that war is not always between Islam and kufr and there are different motives behind wars. Past wars was not all about Islam vs Hinduvs sikh but Muslims also fought against others Muslims i.e Afghan fought wars with Mughals, Muslims Rajputs fought wars with boht Mughals and Afghans inavders and some even fought among themselves for power i.e Gakkhar and Janjua Rajputs have been fighting among each others over control of salt region of PHOTOHAR. Some were allies of Mughal others showed resistance against them so history is not this simple

You are just wasting your time ... This lot is too bigoted to tolerate any difference of opinions and they will soon resort to Takfir and name calling.
 
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You are just wasting your time ... This lot is too bigoted to tolerate any difference of opinions and they will soon resort to Takfir and name calling.
Mate I also disagree with your views about Hadiths and I can debate about it but I will never distribute certificate of Muslim or non Muslim, patriot or traitors to others. Its easier for us to find flaws in others and to judge them but hard to do some introspection..any way we should debate about topics without discussing individuals and without personal attacks .we cannot change the mind of others by name calling and we are all adults so should behave like ones :)
 
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Mate I also disagree with your views about Hadiths and I can debate about it but I will never distribute certificate of Muslim or non Muslim, patriot or traitors to others. Its easier for us to find flaws in others and to judge them but hard to do some introspection..any way we should debate about topics without discussing individuals and without personal attacks .we cannot change the mind of others by name calling and we are all adults so should behave like ones :)

You have every right to disagree with my views on anything .... Everyone is entitled to his opinions... And it's really good that you are mature enough to avoid issuing Takfir .. But the moment one resorts to Takfir during a debate, he loses the right to complain about being called out on his bigotry (or being replied in kind, less the Takfir of course)...

Anyway, let's get back to the topic.
 
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Now **** off and don't quote me again .... I have zero regards for Takfiris and sectarian bigots like you...

That’s fine by me.

By the way for all others reading, I didn’t make takfir on this poster personally, just stated opinions of ulema on Quranists (rejection of Hadith.)

It is the same for other deviant sects like Ahmadiyyas, Khawarij/Daesh, and others.

I would not be bothered otherwise, except when someone passes themselves off as an authority of deen.

May Allah swt guide us all to His way.
 
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By the way for all others reading, I didn’t make takfir on this poster personally, just stated opinions of ulema on Quranists (rejection of Hadith.)

It is the same for other deviant sects like Ahmadiyyas, Khawarij/Daesh, and others.

And ironically, I do not believe in wholesale rejection of 'Hadith' ... I just believe in greater scrutiny and refuse to be a blind follower of Mullahs... :lol:

Anyways, Let's get back to the topic:


Excerpts from: The Panjab Census, 1881, by Denzil Ibbetson, published 1883 (Ch: VI, pp. 317-320):

The Scavenger Castes

The class is numerically and economically one of the most important in the Province, for the Chuhras are only exceeded in number by the Jat, Rajput, and Brahman, while they occupy a very prominent position among the agricultural labourers of the Panjab. But socially they are the lowest of the low, even lower perhaps than the vagrant Sansi and The gypsy Nat, and as a rule can hardly be said to stand even at the foot of the social ladder, though some sections of the clan have mounted the first one or two steps. Their hereditary occupation is scavenging, sweeping the houses and streets, working up, carrying to the fields, and distributing manure, and in cities and in village houses where the women are strictly secluded, removing night soil. They alone of all classes keep those impure animals, pigs and fowls ; and they and the leather-workers alone eat the flesh of animals that have died of disease or by natural death. Together with the vagrants and gypsies they are the here dietary workers in grass and reeds, from which they make winnowing pans and other articles used in agriculture ; and like them they eat jackals, lizards, tortoises, and pigs. Many of them have abandoned scavenging and taken to leather-work and even to weaving and by doing so have mounted one or even two steps in the social grades, as in the latter ease they pass over the leather-workers. But to secure the full benefit of this change of occupation they must relinquish the habit of eating carrion. Their agricultural functions will be presently described. It is probable that they are essentially of aboriginal origin ; but there is little doubt that the aboriginal nucleus has received additions from other sources, of those who have gradually sunk in the scale of occupations or have in any way been degraded to the lowest level. The distribution of the class will be noticed as each of the three castes is dis cussed. In the hills they are replaced by menials who will be described in the separate section on the menials of those parts.

_ 1 Mr. Clanning suggests that these men may be the faqirs of the shrine of Shah Chokha a saint much venerated by The Meos ; in so much that the abduction of a married woman from the fair of the saint is held to be allowable, Shah Chokha being said to have given the woman to the abductor.

The Chuhra
(Caste No. 4)

The Chuhra or Bhangi of Hindustan is the sweeper and scavenger par excellence of the Panjab, is found throughout the Province except in the hills, where he is replaced by other castes presently to be described. He is comparatively rare on the frontier, where he is, I believe, chiefly confined to the towns ; and most numerous in the Lahore and Amritsar divisions and Faridkot where much of the agricultural labour is performed by him, as he here fills the position with respect to field-work which is held in the east of the Province by the Chamar. For the frontier, however, the figures of Abstract No. 72 must be added, which shows the Chuhras and Kutanas who have returned themselves as Jats. He is one of the village menials proper, who receive a customary share of the produce and perform certain duties. In the east of the Province he sweeps the houses and village, collects the cowdung, pats it into cakes and stacks it, works up the manure, helps with the cattle, and takes them from village to village. News of a death sent to friends is invariably carried by him, and he is the general village messenger [Lehhar, Baldi, Baidhar, Daura) . He also makes the child} or winnowing pan, and the sirki or grass thatch used to cover carts and the like. In the centre of the Province he adds to these functions actual hard work at the plough and in the field. He claims the flesh of such dead animals as do not divide the hoof, the cloven-footed belonging to the Chamar. But his occupations change somewhat with his religion ; and here it will be well to show exactly what other entries of our schedules I have included under the head of Chuhra : —



They prefer to call themselves Chuhra, looking upon the term Bhangi as opprobrious, These various names denote nothing more than a change of religion sometimes accompanied by a change of occupation. Table VIII shows that the Hindu Chuhra, that is to say the Chuhra who follows the original religion of the caste and has been classed by us as Hindu, is found in all the eastern half of the Panjab plains : but that west of Lahore he hardly exists save in the great cities of Rawalpindi, Multan and Peshawar. His religion is sketched in Pari VIII of the Chapter on Religion. I may add that since writing that chapter, I have received traditions from distant parts of the Province which leave little doubt that Bala Shah, one of the Chuhra Gurus, is another name for Bal Mik; a hunter of the Karnal district, who was converted by a holy Rishi, and eventually wrote the Ramayana. The Rishi wished to prescribe penance, but reflected that so vile a man would not be able to say RAM RAM. So he set him to say MRA iMRA which, if you say it fast enough, comes to much the same thing. Their other guru is Fill Beg ; and they still call their priests Lal gurus. They generally marry by phera and bur y their dead face downwards, though they not unseldom follow in these respects the custom of the villagers whom they serve.

The Sikh Chuhra -Mazbi and Rangreta
The second and third entries in the table of the last paragraph, viz., Mazbi and Rangreta, denote Chuhras who have become Sikhs. Of course a Mazbi will often have been returned as Chuhra by caste and Sikh by religion ; and the figures of Table VIIIA are the ones to be followed, those given above being intended merely to show how many men returned to me under each of the heads shown I have classed as Chuhras. Sikh Churas are almost confined to the district and states immediately east and south-east of Lahore^ which form the centre of Sikhism.

Mazbi means nothing more than a member of the scavenger class converted to Sikhism. {see further paf/e 154). The Mazbis take the pahul, wear their hair long, and abstain from tobacco, and they apparently refuse to touch night-soil, though performing all the other otfices hereditary to the Chuhra caste. Their great Gunt is Teg Bahadur, whose mutilated body was brought back from Dehli by Chuhras who were then and there admitted to the faith as a reward for their devotion. But though good Sikhs so far as religious observance is concerned, the taint of hereditary pollution is upon them ; and Sikhs of other castes refuse to associate with them even in religious ceremonies. They often intermarry with the Lai Begi or Hindu Chuhra. They make capital soldiers and some of our regiments are wholly composed of Mazbis. The Rangreta are a class of Mazbi apparently found only in Ambala, Ludhiana and the neighbourhood, who consider themselves socially superior to the rest. The origin of their superiority, I am informed, lies in the fact that they were once notorious as highway robbers ! But it appears that the Rangretas have very generally abandoned scavengering for leather work, and this would at once account for their rise in the social scale. In the hills Rangreta is often used as synonymous with . Rangrez, or Chhimba or Lilari to denote the cotton dyer and stamper ; and in Sirsa the Sikhs will often call any Chuhra whom they wish to please Rangreta, and a rhyme is current Rangreta, Guru kd beta, or the Rangreta is the son of the Guru.^^

The Musalman Chuhra— Musalli, Kutana, &c
Almost all the Chuhras west of Lahore are Musalmans, and they are very commonly called Musalli or Kutana, the two terms being apparently- almost synonymous, but Kutana being chiefly used in the south- west and Musalli in the north-west. In Sirsa the converted Chuhra Is called Dindar or faithful '■' as a term of respect, or Khojab, a euimch, in satirical allusion to his circumcision, or, as sometimes interpreted, Khoja, one who has found salvation. But it appears that in many parts The Musalman Chuhra continues to be called Chuhra so long as he eats carrion or removes night-soil, and is only promoted to the title of Musalli on his relinquishing those habits, the Musalli being considered distinctly a lugher class than the Chuhra. On the other hand the Musalli of the frontier towns does remove night-soil. On the Peshawar frontier the Musalli Is the grave-digger as well as the sweeper, and is said to be some times called Shahi Khel, though this latter title would seem to be more generally used for Chuhras who have settled on the upper Indus and taken to working in grass and reeds like the Kutanas presently to be described,

Kutana, or as it Is more commonly called in The villages KurtanaS is the name usually given to a class of Musalman sweepers who have settled on the bank of the lower Indus, have given up scavengering and eating carrion, and taken to making ropes and working in grass and reeds ; though the word is also applied to any Mahomedan sweeper. Some of the Kurtanas even cultivate land on their own account. So long as they do no scavenger ing the Kurtanas are admitted to religious equality by The other Mahomedans. I think It Is not impossible that the Kurtanas of the Indus banks are a distinct caste from the Bhangi and Chuhra of the Eastern Panjab. The detailed table of clans will doubtless throw light on the point.

Divisions of The Chuhras
The Chuhra divisions are very numerous, but the larger sections returned in our schedules only include about half the total number. Some of the largest are shown in the margin. The greater number of them are evidently named after the dominant tribe whom they or their ancestors served. The Sahotra Is far the most widely distributed, and this and the Bhatti and Khokhar are the principal tribes in the Multan and Rawalpindi divisions. The others seem to be most largely returned from the Lahore and Amritsar divisions. Those who returned themselves as Chuhras and Musallis respectively showed some large tribes, and the above figures Include both. The Kutanas returned no large tribes.



The Dhanak
(Caste No. 43)

The Dhanak is found only in the Dehli and Hissar divisions and the eastern portion of the Phulklan States. He is essentially a caste of Hindustan and not of the Panjab proper. Sir H. Elliott says that they are most numerous in Behar, and that they are fowlers, archers, and watchmen, besides performing other menial service. He says that the Aheri tribe of hunters is an offshoot from the Dhanaks, and Wilson derives the name from the Sanskrit clhanushka, a bowman. The Panjab Dhanaks, however, are not Inmters, and the only difference between their avocations and those of the Chuhras would appear to be that the Dhanaks, while they will do general scavenging, will not remove night-soil

' There i^ said to be a respectable agricultural caste of this name in Derah Ismail Khan, who must be distinguished from The sweeper Kurtana. soil^ and that a great deal of weaving is done by them in the villages. Like the chuhras, they are generally village menials proper^ having customary rights and duties. The Chuhras are said to look down upon the Dhunaks ; but they are apparently on an equality^ as neither will eat the leavings of the other, though each will eat the leavings of all other tribes except Sansis, not excluding Khatiks. There are practically speaking no Sikh or Muslim Dhanaks, and their religion would appear to be that of the Chuhras, as the only considerable tribe the Dhanaks have returned is Lul Guru, another name for Lai Beg the sweeper Guru. But they are said to burn their dead. They marry by phera and no Brahman will officiate.

The Khatik
(Caste No. 87)

This also is a caste of Hindustan, and is found in any numbers only in the Jamna zone, Patiala, and Sirsa. But it has apparently followed our troops into the Panjab, and is found in most of the large cantonments or in their neighbourhood. Many of these latter have adopted the Musalman religion. They appear to be closely allied to the Pasis, and indeed are sometimes classed as a tribe of that caste. They form a connecting link between the scavengers and the leather-workers, though they occupy a social position distinctly inferior to that of the latter. They are great keepers of pigs and poultry, which a Chamar would not keep. At the same time many of them tan and dye leather, and indeed are not seldom confused Avith the Chamrang. The Khatik, however, tans only sheep and goat skins (so at least I am informed by some Lahore Khatiks and Cham rangs) using salt and the juice of the Madar {Calotropis proocra), but no lime ; while the Chamrang tans buffalo and ox hides with lime, and does not dye leather. It is probable, however, that Chamrang is more the name of an occupation than of a caste.

The Khatik is said sometimes to keep sheep and goats and twist their hair into waistbands for sale ; and even occasionally to act as butcher, but this last seems improbable from his low position, unless indeed it be as a pork-butcher. At the same time the information that 1 have received is very conflicting, and it may be that I have put the Khatik too low, and that he would have better been classed with the leather-workers. So far as I can make out, the fact is that the Khatik of the east is a pig-keeper and the Khatik of the west a tanner, the latter occupying a higher position than the former (see further under Chamrang, section 6 09). Mr. Christie tells me that the Hindu Khatik pig-keeper is a Purbi immigrant ; while the Musalman Khatik tanner of the Panjab proper is nothing more than a Chamar who has adopted Islam and given up working in cowhide.
 
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If you're not Muslim first then I'm sorry but that's what you are.
There should not be this debate about who come first or second or third . National/ethnic identity can exist along with religious identity and why you are making clash between them. Secondly you are only responsible for yourselves . If someone believe in Allah then we should be careful before passing judgement of kufr on them in our personal capacity because they say Allah can forgive anything except shirk . You are living in kufr land along with kafirs and I bet you are not having tough time there so avoid being so judgemental about others because they will judge you in same manners which you would not like
 
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. You are living in kufr land along with kafirs and I bet you are not having tough time there so avoid being so judgemental about others because they will judge you in same manners which you would not like

When did I say anything bad about Kafirs?

Also, I'm not living here in accordance to my will. Circumstances have forced me to live here. The plan is to go to Pakistan ASAP and work there.
 
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When did I say anything bad about Kafirs?

Also, I'm not living here in accordance to my will. Circumstances have forced me to live here. The plan is to go to Pakistan ASAP and work there.
Good for you mate...be at peace with others no matter where you live . People can respect and love each other in spite of their cultural, religious, and political differences. :)
 
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Slogan of Islam was often used in the past for political power and for plundering others. You are assuming that all past Muslim rulers were just saints whose only motive was to serve just Islam and they had never violated any Islamic rules and principles which is always based on fairness without any material motive in mind.

Brother. Apparently, you are responding to my post, but you appear to have totally misread my post, since you are ascribing to me a claim, which I haven't made, at all, in my post. Kindly reread my post.

Whom side you will pick if you consider yourself Muslim before Pakistani or Punjabi ? funny that our Pakistani Punjabi Muslims blindly praise Muslim, arab, afghan rulers by suppressing their ethnic Identity yet People in these countries are more proud of their identity of being arab, afghan and persian and consider others races as inferior lol look all these Afghan Iran and arab countries who have got better relationship with kufr countries (including our enemy India) than taking side of poor Muslim countries so political interests was more dear to them than their brothers

This current issue, you are talking about, has nothing to do with the reverence of Pakistani Muslims regarding certain historical Muslim conquerors and rulers, in which ethnicity has no role, whatsoever, and that deference is based solely upon a religious association. You are unnecessarily exporting the present sensitivities to the past.
 
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