Make In India - Fighter Jet musings - News, Developments, Updates - F16,F18, Gripen, Any other

[Hellfire]

So much for exclusive to India and most latest versions. When the same with minor cosmetic changes with a newer Blcok name is offered to others

Enjoy the hypocrisy... And they will put a spin. A Make In India F16 Block 80/85 sold to Switzerland.

Another ticklish idea. Su-30, Rafale and LCA with Gripen (if Sweden gives assurance on engine). US totally out.

That gives us the edge we need with Russia.

 

[[Bregs]]

Hmm so being laced with lots of chocolates and creams, with all these add on features the price will rise too but technology transfer might be as good as assembling by india

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Hmm so being laced with lots of chocolates and creams, with all these add on features the price will rise too but technology transfer might be as good as assembling by india

Screw driver level
Nut and bolt and riveting assembly in a Air conditioned plant and with a bio metric access and a ID card based locator to keep a track where you are all the time and you are not in other "secretive" areas for which you are not authorised.

Thats "State of the Art"

 

[Hellfire]

Screw driver level
Nut and bolt and riveting assembly in a Air conditioned plant and with a bio metric access and a ID card based locator to keep a track where you are all the time and you are not in other "secretive" areas for which you are not authorised.

Thats "State of the Art"

A big NO THANKS

Lets hope GoI works up faster and wraps up asap. Things have got delayed too long.

 

[[Bregs]]

A big NO THANKS

Lets hope GoI works up faster and wraps up asap. Things have got delayed too long.

Another angle we are all forgetting that apart from convergence of interests on china factor to a certain level between India and US, by offering such planes to india to assemble, the US is also very cleverly luring India away from Russia which we can not afford in any case with vast amount of weaponry of Russian origin

 

[Hellfire]

Another angle we are all forgetting that apart from convergence of interests on china factor to a certain level between India and US, by offering such planes to india to assemble, the US is also very cleverly luring India away from Russia which we can not afford in any case with vast amount of weaponry of Russian origin

No. We are not forgetting that. I don't think anyone if us has negated the Russian factor.

Project 23000e, the four warships, sukhoi upgrade, and other equipment on order as earlier elucidated by @PARIKRAMA is a bigger deal.
Money speaks

 

[[Bregs]]

No. We are not forgetting that. I don't think anyone if us has negated the Russian factor.

Project 23000e, the four warships, sukhoi upgrade, and other equipment on order as earlier elucidated by @PARIKRAMA is a bigger deal.
Money speaks

i am eager to some big tickets deals with Russian when Putin is in Goa next month

 

[Abingdonboy]

Another ticklish idea. Su-30, Rafale and LCA with Gripen (if Sweden gives assurance on engine). US totally out.

That gives us the edge we need with Russia.

The US is hardly "out" in this scenario as 2 of the above Jets would have critical US tech (propulsion) and thus India would be in their vice. Rafale, LCA (long term with Kaveri fitted), AMCA, Su-30 and FGFA would easily be the optimum solution for India's strategic considerations.

With SAAB already offering exclusive rights to Brazil for the NG the little incentive that existed for India is now non-existent as far as the Gripen Goes.

 

[Hellfire]

With SAAB already offering exclusive rights to Brazil for the NG the little incentive that existed for India is now non-existent as far as the Gripen Goes.

This I missed somehow. Wasnt keeping a track thoroughly. Thanks for this point.

US 'out' in terms of platform only was my intent.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Boeing-bullish-on-India-as-manufacturing-base

India is currently finalizing negotiations to buy 36 French Rafale multi-role fighter jets -- a deal for which Boeing unsuccessfully pitched its F/A-18 Super Hornet. But Boeing India president Pratyush Kumar is looking to life beyond the Rafale deal, and to India's growing role in the company's global operations.

Pratyush Kumar, President of Boeing India



"In India we have a robust and growing business partnership in both the commercial and defense space," Kumar said. "Just this past month, the Indian government placed an order for four P8-I maritime reconnaissance aircraft." That deal is worth more than $1 billion.



The company also announced the start of construction in Hyderabad of a joint venture aerospace factory with Tata Advanced Systems, part of the Tata Group, in June.

"This factory will make the entire fuselage for the Apache attack helicopter. This is not just for the 22 Apaches that India has contracted for -- but also for the global supply chain of Boeing. This is just the beginning; we see India as a part of Boeing's global aviation ecosystem in the years ahead."

The joint venture will manufacture the Apache's fuselage, door frames for the P8-I and will also scale up for Boeing's global needs. Tata will benefit from technology transfer through the joint venture.

Kumar is also bullish on combat aircraft, despite the Rafale deal. "The [Indian Air Force] will gradually phase out the Mig-21, Mirage 2000 and Jaguar squadrons over the next decade. This creates an opportunity for more aircraft for the IAF," he said.

"India will look beyond the India-made light combat aircraft and the French Rafale. Boeing is willing to create an aircraft ecosystem by transferring the entire production line of the Super Hornet [F/A-18] to India."

Present in India for 77 years, Boeing is the largest single defense vendor to the country, where it has an estimated $11 billion order book. This is a sea change from just a few years ago, when Russian and Israeli companies dominated Indian defense imports.

Zero defect domain

Kumar attributes the opportunity for sourcing globally from India to the available pool of engineering talent. However, for India to best leverage the global opportunity, government rules requiring 30% to 50% of each contract to be made in India -- depending on the contract size -- need to be made more flexible, he said.

"Capacity building is critical in aviation, which is a different kind of business from, say, the automotive industry," he said. Aviation "is a zero defect domain. Aviation needs an ecosystem to be put into place. India should consider using offset dollars in skill development to create a new generation of aeronautical engineers."

In its recently released market outlook for 2016, Boeing said it expects the Indian commercial aviation market to grow significantly in the medium term. It projects demand at 1,850 new aircraft, valued at $265 billion, by 2035. Of these, the company believes 1,500 aircraft will be single-aisle, while 280 will be wide-bodied.

According to the International Air Transport Association, air travel in India grew by 20% in 2015 -- the fastest growth rate in the world.

However, some analysts believe that Indian skies may be becoming over crowded as the number of competing airlines continues to soar -- the latest to enter the market include Vistara, a joint venture launched by Tata and Singapore Airlines, and Air Asia India, an offshoot of Malaysia's Air Asia. Boeing recently announced that Jet Airways, India's second-largest airline by passenger numbers, has put on hold the delivery of 10 Boeing 787 aircraft.

The country's new civil aviation policy, introduced earlier this year, mandates that a one-hour flight anywhere in India must cost no more than 2,500 rupees ($36) compared with a typical previous cost of about 4,500 rupees. The policy also frees airlines from rules requiring them to have been in business for at least five years and to possess a fleet of 20 aircraft before they can fly abroad.

"The new civil aviation policy will sustain aviation momentum going forward. The reform will spur cheaper regional connectivity. This will expand the Indian civil aviation market spatially -- beyond India's key mega cities," Kumar said. Boeing plans to pitch the 737-8 MAX, its prime regional jet, for the Indian market.

Thanks @ashok321 for this article
But please use this sticky for all F18, F16, Gripen news.. All except Rafale which goes to Rafale sticky

+++

"India will look beyond the India-made light combat aircraft and the French Rafale. Boeing is willing to create an aircraft ecosystem by transferring the entire production line of the Super Hornet [F/A-18] to India."

Kumar is also bullish on combat aircraft, despite the Rafale deal. "The [Indian Air Force] will gradually phase out the Mig-21, Mirage 2000 and Jaguar squadrons over the next decade. This creates an opportunity for more aircraft for the IAF," he said.

Beyond these two customary quotes his focus seems to be more on the offset and parts being made for other orders of Apache and civilian aircrafts which is a very big market.

If for him opportunity lies at Mig 21, Mirage and Jags replacement then its questionable. Mig21 are to be replaced outright by LCA and other 2 will be in service for at least 15 more years.

So what is F18 trying to replace is a very good guess.

 

[zebra7]

https://twitter.com/x/status/773413440249597952

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Force Magazine carries an article about F16. I am uploading the article with parts of the page so that its more legible.

Please note

• it takes 36 months to build a F16.
• On top Indian line will take minimum 3 years.
• If approval for MII comes in by March 2017, then by 2023 mid, we should see First F16 roll out
• Now how can F16 meet our squadron needs or LWF need when first jet comes out by 2023.

Please see the article

Comment

• Imperatively Saab Gripen E/F is also in the same timeline
• LCA MK2 should also be available by 2023/24 if we do make it as per original plan
• Now LWF fleet will be augmented how when both F16/Gripen will be available only after 2023?
• Its the same case with F18, a similar timeline there also
• Unless the original line in US churns out some jets (2 squads) during that time till we do production under MII, the whole thing is non feasible and if we order off the shelf then it means we decrease MII numbers as well.
• Now you all can understand why practically the other Jet (Rafale which is in sticky) is the only one practically possible and all these others are a non starter.
• The timeline proves clearly LWF fleet wont get new numbers really under MII with what everyone is proposing.

Tagging all. Would love to hear your thoughts after reading all this

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander @others

 

[Abingdonboy]

Force Magazine carries an article about F16. I am uploading the article with parts of the page so that its more legible.

Please note

• it takes 36 months to build a F16.
• On top Indian line will take minimum 3 years.
• If approval for MII comes in by March 2017, then by 2023 mid, we should see First F16 roll out
• Now how can F16 meet our squadron needs or LWF need when first jet comes out by 2023.

Please see the article
View attachment 334248 View attachment 334249 View attachment 334250 View attachment 334252 View attachment 334253

Comment

• Imperatively Saab Gripen E/F is also in the same timeline
• LCA MK2 should also be available by 2023/24 if we do make it as per original plan
• Now LWF fleet will be augmented how when both F16/Gripen will be available only after 2023?
• Its the same case with F18, a similar timeline there also
• Unless the original line in US churns out some jets (2 squads) during that time till we do production under MII, the whole thing is non feasible and if we order off the shelf then it means we decrease MII numbers as well.
• Now you all can understand why practically the other Jet (Rafale which is in sticky) is the only one practically possible and all these others are a non starter.
• The timeline proves clearly LWF fleet wont get new numbers really under MII with what everyone is proposing.

Tagging all. Would love to hear your thoughts after reading all this

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander @others

Oh look, the emprorer isn't wearing any clothes.......


Bro, it's amply clear to anyone who is interested in the truth that the SAAB and LM offers are basically exercises in futility. The Gripen NG is matched by the LCA MK.2 in almost every manner and the F-16 is a 1960s design, there is no room for a foreign LWF in the IAF. The only people pushing this are their agents and proxies in the media, neither the IAF or MoD are interested.

 

[Ali Zadi]

Force Magthers

Thanks for the tag

The only thing that America can give of value is aerospace tech not the F16 but the tech surrounding it. The engine "Full", experiment with the F16 frame aka XL, etc and related technologies. As a package the F16 is limited while it maybe ahead of the LCA in its latest iteration new updates might as well be totally dependent on Indian funding and its better to experiment locally with the LCA than with a F16.

If there is no technology of value being passed better to just make up more lines for the LCA and get a engine up and ready. The frame it self is a beautiful not to mention the navy version on which the Mk.2 is said to be based on. In fact maybe they will include some design cues from the navy version in the Mk.1A

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

The US is hardly "out" in this scenario as 2 of the above Jets would have critical US tech (propulsion) and thus India would be in their vice. Rafale, LCA (long term with Kaveri fitted), AMCA, Su-30 and FGFA would easily be the optimum solution for India's strategic considerations.

With SAAB already offering exclusive rights to Brazil for the NG the little incentive that existed for India is now non-existent as far as the Gripen Goes.

What exclusive rights, nothing of the sort mentioned here...