What's new

Make In India - Fighter Jet musings - News, Developments, Updates - F16,F18, Gripen, Any other

LM and Boeing have already denied ToT for their fighter jets. They are very much aware that Indian private sector would catch up pretty fast if they are coopted which would pave way for rapid development of indigenous defense industry and soon foreign players would be irrelevant in India.

While, if they partner with a PSU which everyone knows are inefficient and highly corrupt, they would still have a chance to mint money and continue selling their outdated weapons systems to India as PSUs aren't good at absorbing ToT

SAAB has provided significant ToT to Brazil. No reason to withold stuff from India.
They are training large numbers of Embraer employees, which are now busy
designing the Gripen F.

The Gripen E is created using Model Based Design, and that is something India
would benefit greatly to adopt.
It also make it easier to adopt modern production methods like 3-D printers.
SAAB has announced use of 3-D printing technology for the SAAB/Boeing T-X,
and it would be surprising if it was not also used for the Gripen.

The structure of the S/W package, is also unique since the core of the flight control
is separated from much of the other functionality, so instead of having to understand 20 million lines of code, many engineers will only have to learn how to access the APIs.
 
SAAB has provided significant ToT to Brazil. No reason to withold stuff from India.
They are training large numbers of Embraer employees, which are now busy
designing the Gripen F.

The Gripen E is created using Model Based Design, and that is something India
would benefit greatly to adopt.
It also make it easier to adopt modern production methods like 3-D printers.
SAAB has announced use of 3-D printing technology for the SAAB/Boeing T-X,
and it would be surprising if it was not also used for the Gripen.

The structure of the S/W package, is also unique since the core of the flight control
is separated from much of the other functionality, so instead of having to understand 20 million lines of code, many engineers will only have to learn how to access the APIs.
I never mentioned SAAB in my post. Well the extent of ToT SAAB is willing to offer is unknown, US won't offer anything more than a screw and nut job. If IAF is hell bent on inducting a single engine fighter, my choice would be the Gripen but I feel it is better IAF goes with 2 more squadrons of Rafales and maybe a few for IN's next AC and completely stop inducting anymore foreign fighters and focus on indigenous programs with the help of French. The same could be done with Sweden too but too many different types of fighter jets would only be a logistical nightmare and would be plagued with maintenance issues
 
I never mentioned SAAB in my post. Well the extent of ToT SAAB is willing to offer is unknown, US won't offer anything more than a screw and nut job. If IAF is hell bent on inducting a single engine fighter, my choice would be the Gripen but I feel it is better IAF goes with 2 more squadrons of Rafales and maybe a few for IN's next AC and completely stop inducting anymore foreign fighters and focus on indigenous programs with the help of French. The same could be done with Sweden too but too many different types of fighter jets would only be a logistical nightmare and would be plagued with maintenance issues

No the extent of ToT SAAB is willing to offer is well known,
due to the Brazil Order.
SAAB is willing to supply information enough to allow a buyer to design a derivative of Gripen E.
That is not psdible without extensive training and knowledge.
This is done for an order of 36 aircraft.

Why would not SAAB be prepared to do the same or an order of 100 aircraft?

I believe someone said on PDF that IAF has studied logistics and came to the conclusion
that once you have a hundred aircraft of a type, you cannot gain more logistic efficiency
by ordering more.
So (100 x A) + (100 x B) is equivalent to (200 x A) from a logistics point of view.
 
No the extent of ToT SAAB is willing to offer is well known,
due to the Brazil Order.
SAAB is willing to supply information enough to allow a buyer to design a derivative of Gripen E.
That is not psdible without extensive training and knowledge.
This is done for an order of 36 aircraft.

Why would not SAAB be prepared to do the same or an order of 100 aircraft?

I believe someone said on PDF that IAF has studied logistics and came to the conclusion
that once you have a hundred aircraft of a type, you cannot gain more logistic efficiency
by ordering more.
So (100 x A) + (100 x B) is equivalent to (200 x A) from a logistics point of view.
While I am optimistic about SAAB offering significant ToT, the recent push by GoI to cancel the SE fighter jet tender have lead to an uncertainty . IAF and IA have a tradition of killing indigenous projects in favor of foreign fighters for kickbacks and commissions. They happened to kill Marut in favor of Migs and Arjun MBT has been ordered in limited quantity even after it exceeded T90s in performance trails while T90s have been inducted even without their summer trails.

I know your inclined to think what's best for your country while I would do the same. Rafale is a done deal and is a dual engine medium combat fighter, so far only 36 have been ordered and there is a possibility to face issues with spares ordering a few more would help us in maintaining uniformity among our fleets while Gripen is a light SE fighter which would put our Tejas in jeopardy. If Tejas is killed, there is no way we could get AMCA as that is our only hope for a 5th gen fighter ever since the FGFA went into doldrums
 
While I am optimistic about SAAB offering significant ToT, the recent push by GoI to cancel the SE fighter jet tender have lead to an uncertainty . IAF and IA have a tradition of killing indigenous projects in favor of foreign fighters for kickbacks and commissions. They happened to kill Marut in favor of Migs and Arjun MBT has been ordered in limited quantity even after it exceeded T90s in performance trails while T90s have been inducted even without their summer trails.

I know your inclined to think what's best for your country while I would do the same. Rafale is a done deal and is a dual engine medium combat fighter, so far only 36 have been ordered and there is a possibility to face issues with spares ordering a few more would help us in maintaining uniformity among our fleets while Gripen is a light SE fighter which would put our Tejas in jeopardy. If Tejas is killed, there is no way we could get AMCA as that is our only hope for a 5th gen fighter ever since the FGFA went into doldrums

Well, the study means that there is no drawback in maintaining a fleet of 100+ Tejas and a fleet of 100+ Gripen at the same time.
Comments from IAF comparing Tejas with Gripen/F-16 and finding it lacking,
does not mean that it is useless, just that there are limits to the useability.
Japanese products were useless in the 50s, and high quality 30 years later.
SAAB has offered cooperation on AMCA as well, and it might be that this
is where India can have a breakthough.
 
Well, the study means that there is no drawback in maintaining a fleet of 100+ Tejas and a fleet of 100+ Gripen at the same time.
Comments from IAF comparing Tejas with Gripen/F-16 and finding it lacking,
does not mean that it is useless, just that there are limits to the useability.
Japanese products were useless in the 50s, and high quality 30 years later.
SAAB has offered cooperation on AMCA as well, and it might be that this
is where India can have a breakthough.
There is no way that would happen as IAF wants both Rafales and SE fighters. MoD doesn't have money to procure 100 Tejas, 100 Gripens and more Rafales.

You can't ignore the fact that more Rafales aren't gonna be ordered if Gripen is selected because if not the IAF, IN would definitely need medium combat aircrafts for it's carrier borne fighters and F-18 isn't an option there which leaves us with Rafale-M
 
There is no way that would happen as IAF wants both Rafales and SE fighters. MoD doesn't have money to procure 100 Tejas, 100 Gripens and more Rafales.

You can't ignore the fact that more Rafales aren't gonna be ordered if Gripen is selected because if not the IAF, IN would definitely need medium combat aircrafts for it's carrier borne fighters and F-18 isn't an option there which leaves us with Rafale-M

MoD have already ordered more than 100 Tejas, and plan to order around 100 single engine fighters.
If the Rafale had not been so expensive, the MMRCA program would have run its course,
and there would not have been a single engine procurement.
It is not obvious that India is better off with fewer Rafale vs more numerous SE fighters.
Anyway, it is not my problem.
India needs to do what gives India the best defense for the money, long term.

From the sound of it, the MoD is considering even the SE fighter expensive and would like to go Tejas, but the IAF is strongly objecting. Going more Rafale is contradicting that position.

Neither the F-18 or the Rafale M is an option until someone fixes the problem with elevator size,
for a carrier built for the smaller Naval Tejas and MiG-29.
 
From the sound of it, the MoD is considering even the SE fighter expensive and would like to go Tejas, but the IAF is strongly objecting. Going more Rafale is contradicting that position
MoD isn't objecting SE tender because it's expensive but to comply with MII and to develop indigenous defense industry which they fear would be killed if a foreign fighter is selected. If Congress govt was in power, they would've gone for 126 MMRCA's no matter how expensive they were or 100 SE's and won't hesitate to kill any indigenous project
 
There has been shift of focus in last two weeks away from se fighter order.

USA unwillingness to compromise on tot share and Saab programme too reliant on foreign subsystems was further compounded by costing conclusions of 15 billion dollars and not the ten billion dollars India wanted or budgeted for.

There will be two more rafale suds joining for under six billion dollars as a compromise to the airforce who are shouting re falling nos.

But as a result Iaf will have to agree to fully support the mk1a Tejas no matter how long it takes

India will end up replacing over 11 sqs of mig21/27 with four rafale and six tejas sqds

Mark my words
 
There has been shift of focus in last two weeks away from se fighter order.

USA unwillingness to compromise on tot share and Saab programme too reliant on foreign subsystems was further compounded by costing conclusions of 15 billion dollars and not the ten billion dollars India wanted or budgeted for.

There will be two more rafale suds joining for under six billion dollars as a compromise to the airforce who are shouting re falling nos.

But as a result Iaf will have to agree to fully support the mk1a Tejas no matter how long it takes

India will end up replacing over 11 sqs of mig21/27 with four rafale and six tejas sqds

Mark my words

India has ordered 36 Rafales for two squadrons, so one squadron is 18 aircrafts.
Four squadrons is 72 Rafales.
Six squadrons of Tejas is 108 aircrafts, which is about what has been ordered already.
So You are basically saying that the 100 SE fighters will be replaced by 36 Rafales.

You may want to predict the future, but I believe in not selling the bearskin,
until the bear is dead.
 
Anyways, I request all F-16/Gripen advocates to debate on the SE tender only after the RFI. Because as I said about 2 months earlier than none of the fighter are viable for IAF, LM f-16 because of its very old design and other one because of it multi-national packaged fighter.

The need of elimination of removing the term "SE" is surfaced and soon all have a RFI for MRCA which gives a way to invite more players in the race. Otherwise MoD/IAF will buy more Rafales and LCAs only.
 
Se purchase is dead it's not happening

Modi will.insist on tejss mark1a and mark two

He will offer oxygen to Iafaf by buying another small batch rafales

You watch and remember what storm.force told you today
 
Indian Navy to Issue RFP for Carrier-borne Multi-Role Combat Aircraft in 2018
saab_sea__1512373510.jpg

Saab Sea Gripen
The Indian Navy is likely to issue a request for proposal (RFP) to acquire 57 multi-role combat fighter jets for the aircraft carriers by mid-2018, Navy Chief said.

"Hopefully we will be able to issue the RFP by middle of next year," Indian Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba said Sunday.

Four aircraft manufacturers have shown interest in the project.

The Navy chief also said the first Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC I) will be ready by 2020 and the Navy was looking for deck based combat capable fighter aircraft for it.

He said the naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. cannot operate from deck and that is why the Navy was looking for other options.

"I need a deck based combat capable fighter by 2020 for IAC I. In present state, LCA Navy cannot be operated from deck," he said.

The Navy chief also said that the "form and fit" of the second indigenous aircraft carrier have been finalised and that it will be a 65,000-tonne vessel.

In January this year, the ministry of defence issued a request for information to procure approximately 57 Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighters (MRCBF) for aircraft carriers of the Indian Navy.

The price of the contract has been estimated on the cost of each carrier borne jet at around US$200 million each if it were a western fighter or under US$100 million if it were to be a Russian jet.

The likely contenders for the contract can be Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet, a naval version of the Dassault Rafale, Russian Su-33 that were used in the recent Syrian operations and another Russian-carrier based fighter, the MiG-29K Fulcrum fighter jet.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
https://www.stratpost.com/7-ways-to-bullet-proof-mmrca-2-0/

7 ways to bullet-proof MMRCA 2.0 Lessons learned from the earlier MMRCA can prevent a repeat of that result
by Saurabh Joshi • July 6, 2018
Saurabh JoshiJuly 6, 2018

Art: Saurabh Joshi/StratPost

The first stage of the next attempt of the Indian Air Force (IAF) to acquire new fighter aircraft is about to kick-off with the deadline for submission of responses from six manufacturers to a Request For Information (RFI) ending on Friday – the same six that contested the earlier Indian competition for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

Airbus and Dassault confirmed to StratPost last week that they would be offering information on the Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale, respectively. Four other contestants have already confirmed their intention to participate in the new process.

Origin Manufacturer Aircraft Engines
Sweden Saab Gripen E 01
U.S.A. Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 70 01
U.S.A Boeing F/A-18 Block III 02
Russia RAC/UAC/MiG MiG-35 02
France Dassault Rafale 02
Germany/U.K./Italy/Spain Airbus Eurofighter Typhoon 02
Although this contest appears to be a replay of the MMRCA with the same contestants all over again, there are ways in which it can be different – especially in terms of being run as a more robust process.

In this analysis, we examine lessons learned from the MMRCA contest and look at ways to strengthen the process to prevent a repeat of the earlier abortion.

1. Clarity of Intent
The defence ministry needs to come out with a clear statement of national intent. This means specifying a maximum budget for the acquisition and a clear approach on the process to be followed. And if you’re eventually going to go G2G (government-to-government), don’t issue an RFP (Request For Proposal) and waste everyone’s time and money.

2. Clarity on Budget
Cost is something that comes into play much later in the process, but can be prevented from becoming a problem at that stage, if it is taken seriously at the beginning.

The structure of the Indian defence procurement process incorporates a two-bid system. The first is the technical bid and the second is the commercial bid.

The closest the defence ministry or service headquarters come to budgeting for a particular procurement case is an estimate of cost called Acceptance of Necessity (AoN), which can be adjusted according to benchmarks when the commercial bids are eventually opened.

This can and does cause problems because of a disconnect between defence ministry estimates and eventual real-world market prices plus inflation. There have been cases where estimates and benchmarks have a wide variance from an apparent L1 figure. The MMRCA contest is one such example and the result was sticker shock, paralyzing the process and sending it into a black hole.

The problem here is the two-bid system. No one has any idea how much an order could cost until the opening of the commercial bids, after the technical shortlist. The shortlist tends to include the most expensive bids because it is created only on the basis of technical capabilities and compliance with SQRs. The shortlist ended up including only the two most expensive bids in the case of the MMRCA.

While it’s all very well to aspire to the best possible kit with all the bells and whistles, it defies reality and leads to inevitable, infructuous disappointment. There is no point considering platforms and equipment if the kit is going to be unaffordable.

Just as there is a minimum technical cut-off in terms of compliance requirements with the SQRs (Staff Qualitative Requirements), there should also be a maximum pricing cut-off. There’s a word for it. It’s called a budget. The Acceptance of Necessity is supposed to serve this purpose, but it fails to do so.

A budget for a procurement case should be nailed down before an RFP is issued, catering for inflation over a reasonable period of time allowed for the conclusion of the tender.

The new Defence Planning Committee headed by the National Security Advisor (NSA) Ajit Doval, in which the finance secretary and the defence secretaries are also members (besides the service chiefs), can serve as a clearing house to approve such a budget before an RFP is issued. This will ensure not only in-principle budgetary approval from the finance ministry but also a buy-in from the finance ministry into the acquisition process.

And although the contest can still follow the approach of technical shortlist and then L1 discovery, only those bids should be considered that fall within the budget. In fact, it might not be a bad idea to declare a budget and invite only those bids that fall within that number, with vendors being required to declare that their bid will fall within the budget.

This way the defence ministry and service headquarters can ensure they’re only considering bids that they can afford.

The alternative is potentially running tenders over and over again in the hope that some day there will be money for the best available kit, without any acquisition and modernization over years – decades, more likely.

This applies not only to the fighter acquisition program before us, but all procurement cases. There is good sense in defining how much you plan to spend. Otherwise the defence ministry might end up with a Taj Mahal ka tender.

3. Single-Engine or Twin-Engine
The next bit is the structure and format of the fighter buy. Former defence minister Manohar Parrikar had arrived at the conclusion that the Indian Air Force (IAF) should focus on single-engine aircraft for the present, because single-engine and twin-engine aircraft should not be considered simultaneously because they can vary dramatically on cost and capability and, presumably, because an acquisition of single-engine aircraft would be cheaper, lower-hanging fruit.

The reason for this is, again, the MMRCA experience. With two single-engine aircraft and four twin-engine aircraft in the mix, a wide variance in cost and capability was inevitable. Also inevitable was the selection of the two most expensive platforms on the basis of their technical specifications, without cost being a consideration till that stage.

Think of it as buying a new car. It would be something like considering SUVs and crossover hatchbacks at the same time. If you have the budget for an SUV, why consider a crossover hatchback? And if a crossover hatchback will serve your commuting purpose, for example, why consider an SUV?

In belying expectations that the IAF would move to issue an RFI for single-engine aircraft, the bureaucracy has betrayed its insecurity and abdication of responsibility for the decision, kicking the can down the road to their successors’ successors and so on.

This is, perhaps, not entirely unexpected in the wake of the charges filed in the AgustaWestland case, which also involved specification of the number of engines for the helicopters bid in the tender. This decision is even less of a surprise considering that #RafaleScam has trended on Twitter over the last year.

Clearly and unsurprisingly, no one in government wants to be seen to be restricting the competition for fear of being perceived as favouring certain types of bids, even if it will lengthen the acquisition cycle and increase uncertainty about the tender.

But, as has been pointed out, this is an RFI. The IAF can still be clearer about their requirements in the following RFP and specify the number of engines they want their next fighter to have.

The alternative is running the same MMRCA contest, all over again, which would raise the question whether there is an expectation of the same result or a different result?

4. Trials and Paperwork
Chapter 07 of the DPP which governs strategic partnerships, allows for sections of the trial process to be skipped where they have been carried out before. The defence ministry and IAF should take advantage of this provision and conduct trials only for those technological capabilities that have not been tested earlier or for those capabilities that vendors can justifiably claim have been significantly improved by them. This will save both time and money.

To ensure the tender proceeds without any hiccups, the defence ministry and IAF must ensure a high bar for the paperwork submitted by the vendors. In the last MMRCA, some vendors were dismissive about answering questions in the paper evaluation and were ejected from the contest, only to be brought back in later.

If a vendor is unable to demonstrate the minimum require technical capability in their paperwork, there should be no reason to allow their bid to be considered further in the process.

5. Derisking the Process with a Provisional L1
L1 is, as we know, the lowest technically qualified bid. But as StratPost has pointed out before, there is nothing to prevent a vendor from submitting false or incomplete numbers in their bid to ensure they end up as L1. Under the rules governing tenders laid down by the Central Vigilance Commission (CVC), the defence ministry has no option to move to the next-lowest bid or L2 after an L1 has been declared, in the event that the apparent L1 is not actually L1 or is unable or unwilling to satisfy the terms of the RFP in any other manner.

This is exactly what happened in the earlier MMRCA contest.

This results in the L1 vendor being able to hold the defence ministry hostage – with it’s only alternative under CVC rules being to re-tender. A re-tender would result in the loss of many years of work on the acquisition program with no net modernization benefit to the service in question.

Instead of declaring an L1 bid upon opening the shortlisted commercial bids, the defence ministry should declare a provisional L1, to be certified later as L1 only upon complete scrutiny of offer and negotiation. If it is discovered that the provisional L1 bid is not actually the lowest technically qualified bid or the L1 vendor is unable or unwilling to satisfy the terms of the RFP, the defence ministry would be free to move the next-lowest bid and treat that as the provisional L1.

This would go a huge distance in derisking the acquisition process for the defence ministry and the armed forces. by removing the possibility of a forced re-tender to a large extent. Again, this needn’t apply only to the fighter acquisition program, but also all other procurement cases as well.

6. Clarity on technology transfer and domestic production
Any RFP should be as specific as possible in terms of the requirements for technology transfer and domestic production under Chapter 07 of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) governing strategic partnerships.

Program managers for the earlier MMRCA tender failed to pay enough attention to this aspect of the acquisition case. In fact, the IAF – with it’s priority being solely selection and acquisition of an aircraft, being dismissive of the role Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would have to play in the acquisition, virtually ignored the requirements of technology transfer and licensed production to the point where the L1 vendor was able to resist the application of the terms of the RFP to a stalemate.

This was the final point of failure of the MMRCA tender process.

Detailed clarity in the RFP and mandatory compliance of participating vendors with the terms for technology transfer and domestic production will prevent such a situation from arising.

7. Have the Money Ready
Finally, plan for the expenditure. There have been cases where L1 vendors have simply been unable to extend the validity of their bid because so much time has lapsed between selection and negotiation that their numbers no longer make a business case because of inflation or, in some cases, because they’ve simply had to shut down production of the platform or equipment.

If the money isn’t going to be made available, there is no point to this process at all.
 
Back
Top Bottom