Make In India - Fighter Jet musings - News, Developments, Updates - F16,F18, Gripen, Any other

[Hindustani78]

Ministry of Defence
04-August, 2017 15:11 IST
Defence Equipment

Government is committed to the goal of achieving self reliance in meeting national security objectives. The ‘Make in India’ initiative is the focal point of the current defence procurement policy and procedure and aims to promote indigenous design, development and manufacturing of defence equipment, platforms and systems, involving the public and private sector in the country.

As an important step towards meeting broader national objectives, Government has recently promulgated the Strategic Partnership Policy to facilitate broader participation of the private sector, in addition to DPSUs / OFB, in manufacture of major defence platforms and equipment such as aircraft, submarines, helicopters and armoured vehicles. It is expected that the implementation of the Policy will enhance competition, increase efficiencies, facilitate faster and more significant absorption of technology and create a tiered industrial ecosystem in the country, including in the MSME Sector. The award of contracts in such cases will be through a transparent and competitive process. The policy is expected to contribute to building indigenous capabilities within the country in respect of the identified segments.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Dr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Shri Devusinh Chauhan and others in Lok Sabha today.

Ministry of Defence
04-August, 2017 15:03 IST
Defence and Aero Manufacturing

Since the launch of ‘Make in India’ in September 2014, several measures have been taken by the Government to promote indigenous design, development and manufacture of defence & aerospace equipment in the country by harnessing the capabilities of the public and private sector. These measures inter alia include:

• Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) has been revised and has come into effect from 1st April 2016. A new category of procurement ‘Buy {Indian-IDDM (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured)}’ has been introduced in DPP-2016 which has been accorded top most priority for procurement of capital equipment. Besides this, preference has been accorded to procurement under ‘Buy (Indian)’ and ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’ categories of capital acquisition over ‘Buy (Global)’ & ‘Buy & Make (Global)’ categories. The ‘Make’ Procedure has been simplified with provisions for funding of 90% of development cost by the Government to Indian industry and reserving projects not exceeding development cost of Rs.10 Crore (Government funded) and Rs.3 Crore (Industry funded) for MSMEs.

• FDI Policy has been revised and under the revised policy, Foreign Investment up to 49% is allowed through automatic route and above 49% under Government route wherever it is likely to result in access to modern technology or for other reasons to be recorded.

• Industrial licensing regime for Indian manufacturers under IDR {Industries (Development and Regulation)} Act,1951 has been liberalised and most of the components/ parts / sub-systems have been taken out from the list of defence products requiring Industrial Licence. This has reduced entry barriers for new entrants in this sector, particularly SMEs. The initial validity of Industrial Licence under IDR Act, has been increased from 3 years to 15 years with a provision to further extend it by 3 years on a case to case basis.

• Issues related to level-playing field between Indian & foreign manufacturers, and between public sector & private sector have also been addressed. These include Exchange Rate Variation (ERV) protection for all Indian vendors, removing existing tax anomalies etc.

• Offset guidelines have been made flexible by allowing change of Indian Offset Partners (IOPs) and offset components, even in signed contracts. Foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) are now not required to indicate the details of IOPs and products at the time of signing of contracts. ‘Services’ as an avenue of discharge of offset have been re-instated.

• The process for export clearance has been streamlined and made transparent & online.

• Recently, the Government has notified the ‘Strategic Partnership (SP)’ Model which envisages establishment of long-term strategic partnerships with Indian companies through a transparent and competitive process, wherein they are required to engage with global OEMs for Transfer of Technology and domestic manufacturing infrastructure. The Department of Industrial Policy and Promotion (DIPP) under Ministry of Commerce & Industry, administers ‘Modified Industrial Infrastructure Upgradation Scheme (MIIUS)’ for upgradation of common industrial infrastructure in Industrial Clusters in the country. Project proposals for Defence and Aero Manufacturing Clusters are also considered under MIIUS. Gujarat Industrial Development Corporation (GIDC) and Dholera Industrial City Development Limited (DICDL), after identifying the land around Sanand and Dholera respectively, forwarded the following two proposals related to Defence and Aerospace manufacturing sector to Ministry of Commerce & Industry, Government of India:-

• The first project proposal was for establishment of Defence park at Sanand Industrial Estate, under MIIUS, from GIDC. Since, DIPP had already approved two other non-defence project proposals under MIIUS, this proposal could not be considered due to cap of two projects per State in MIIUS guidelines.

• Another proposal was received from DICDL, Government of Gujarat for seeking support and guidance for attracting major Aerospace and Defence manufacturing companies to invest in Dholera. DIPP had advised to DICDL to take up the proposal for establishment of Aerospace and Defence Manufacturing Park in Dholera with associations like Confederation of Indian Industry (CII), Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce & Industry (FICCI) etc. This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Dr Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Shrimati Darshana Vikram Jardosh in Lok Sabha today.

 

[surya kiran]

If EF was L2, how come they were not invited after five years of failed negotiation.
Any L2 position was clearly pure vapour.

I blame the EFT consortium for this. They did not have a strong enough Indian partner, who can act as a power house. Dassault's smartness lies in the partner it chose. The reason why @Abingdonboy and people like me are confident that Rafale will be in big numbers is because of that number and the on ground activities being laid out by the Indian partner.

 

[X_Killer]

The production of that batch will be finished by 2019-20, FGFA production won't commence until 2025-6, HAL won't allow the production line to stand still so more MKIs will be ordered.

A total of 222 Su-30MKIs are to be built in Nashik. Till date, 161 have been delivered to the IAF. HAL will have to continue building 16 fighters per year to deliver the remaining 61 aircraft (21 from previous order + 40 new order) in 4 years.

Once the last of the 222 Su-30MKIs to be built in Nashik roll off the lines, this facility will build the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), which HAL and Sukhoi will jointly develop.

First two FGFAs will be delivered directly from Russia for evaluation by mid 2020. And Production might be start once they got green light for stage 1 test by IAF. This might take 2 - 3 years.

For, your kind information, HAL already started their preparation to get ready to produce FGFAs without any delay.

Hope, this will help you to update your calculations.

 

[BON PLAN]

There are no sources saying more Rafales will be purchased for IAF.

You just needs some common sense !

Why do you think India spent more than 1.6 € billion on indigenization? this huge amount just for 36 planes? No.

The next batch will be paid arround 100€ million per plane, because all as already be paid (test bench, bases modification, indigenization, simulators...). All next batchs will be cheap.

SAAB has their own AESA radar capability based on GaN. Noone else has this.

??? first time I read that.
SAAB is an integrator, not an electronic devices manufacturer.
Without a vast experience in the domain, no one can make from zero a workable AESA radar.

The fact remains, the US has not said no to India.

If you want to kiss a woman, and if she don't say OK after years ..... it's a NO.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

You just needs some common sense !

Why do you think India spent more than 1.6 € billion on indigenization? this huge amount just for 36 planes? No.

The next batch will be paid arround 100€ million per plane, because all as already be paid (test bench, bases modification, indigenization, simulators...). All next batchs will be cheap.

View attachment 417087


??? first time I read that.
SAAB is an integrator, not an electronic devices manufacturer.
Without a vast experience in the domain, no one can make from zero a workable AESA radar.


If you want to kiss a woman, and if she don't say OK after years ..... it's a NO.

India has said that they will do a two engine fighter tender after the single engine tender.
Obviously Rafale will have an advantage because of such investments,
but I assume the needs of the Navy will be the deciding factor.

Gripen C has a SAAB radar, Gripen E has a AESA Selex radar, since the SAAB AESA radar
was not ready in time.
SAAB delivered the first GaN AESA radar to customers in 2014 for their Giraffe.
They are ahead of all competition on GaN AESA radar.

Politics is not dating.
Anyway, the fighter competition was not on the agenda when Modi met Trump.
A month ago Indian keyboard warriors was convinced of an F-16 deal after the
LM - Tata agreement.
Noone considers the fact that two questions was asked, and maybe the minister
only answered one of them...

People have in other forums published documents dating just days before the
question was answered, where the department denied that the US has said no to MII.
Up to You guys, if you want to look like fools, once the situation clarifies.

 

[X_Killer]

India has said that they will do a two engine fighter tender after the single engine tender.

There is no such announcement. Please share a credible source for it otherwise you're requested to keep your keyboard rested.

For your kind information:
1. More RAFALEs will be bought.
2. FGFA will be there to raise number of squadrons.
3. AMCA development will be fastened to get into production before 2030. First squadron by 2032.
4. SE deal might be scrapped by 2019. (For reason, read 5)
5.Tejas is under extensive modifications to increase the Indigenous content , including AESA & EW suite.
6. More Tejas will be ordered by 2019 , if it completed 5.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

There is no such announcement. Please share a credible source for it otherwise you're requested to keep your keyboard rested.

For your kind information:
1. More RAFALEs will be bought.
2. FGFA will be there to raise number of squadrons.
3. AMCA development will be fastened to get into production before 2030. First squadron by 2032.
4. SE deal might be scrapped by 2019. (For reason, read 5)
5.Tejas is under extensive modifications to increase the Indigenous content , including AESA & EW suite.
6. More Tejas will be ordered by 2019 , if it completed 5.

It was not an announcement, more a comment, which I think was quoted in this thread.
IN needs aircraft for the carriers, and they did not like the single engine Tejas,
so it is not unlikely it will be a dual engine tender in practice.

Your Rafale statement is just guesswork without source.
AMCA schedules are subject to Hofstadters Law as anything else.

India has always the option of ordering more Tejas, and any SE competitor need to show it is better.
At the same time Tejas needs to show the right bang for the bucks.
It is not proof that SE tender is dead.
A decision to go with Tejas does not bring ToT, a key part of the MII deal.
If Modi loses the 2019 election, anything can happen.

 

[X_Killer]

IN needs aircraft for the carriers, and they did not like the single engine Tejas,
so it is not unlikely it will be a dual engine tender in practice.

Your Rafale statement is just guesswork without source.
AMCA schedules are subject to Hofstadters Law as anything else.

India has always the option of ordering more Tejas, and any SE competitor need to show it is better.
At the same time Tejas needs to show the right bang for the bucks.
It is not proof that SE tender is dead.
A decision to go with Tejas does not bring ToT, a key part of the MII deal.
If Modi loses the 2019 election, anything can happen.

For IN, RAFALE-M will be there.
For IAF, RAFALE F3R will be there.
And RAFALEs are also twin engine.
Along with RAFALE FGFA is also TE jet.

You can mark my words for your convenience.

 

[BON PLAN]

SAAB delivered the first GaN AESA radar to customers in 2014 for their Giraffe.
They are ahead of all competition on GaN AESA radar.

It's VERY DIFFERENT to study and produce a ground based radar and a onboard one ! Not the same weight and dimension and energy exigence, température management...
And on another way after producing the hard, you have to developp the soft. And it need time, tries in flight, assesment of real engagement ... Rafale radar need more than 8 years to be fully multi role.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

It's VERY DIFFERENT to study and produce a ground based radar and a onboard one ! Not the same weight and dimension and energy exigence, température management...
And on another way after producing the hard, you have to developp the soft. And it need time, tries in flight, assesment of real engagement ... Rafale radar need more than 8 years to be fully multi role.

SAAB has been making airborne fighter radars since 1962.
First Aircraft was J-35B. At that time this group was part of Ericsson, but were aquired by SAAB.
Gripen C is using a SAAB non AESA radar.

The EriEye AESA radar is airborne since 30 years.
The GlobalEye is AESA using GaN and soon to be delivered to UAE.
They have all the competence to make a good AESA fighter radar with GaN.

For IN, RAFALE-M will be there.
For IAF, RAFALE F3R will be there.
And RAFALEs are also twin engine.
Along with RAFALE FGFA is also TE jet.

You can mark my words for your convenience.

Mark my words.
For IAF, THE X-Wing will be there.
X-Wing is quad engine.
For IN, TIE Fighter will be there.

I have as many sources for that, as You (none).

 

[BON PLAN]

Gripen C is using a SAAB non AESA radar.

the PS05A is a direct derivative of the GEC Marconi Blue Vixxen.... you are pulling my leg Bro.

You're right for Erieye. I appologize.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

the PS05A is a direct derivative of the GEC Marconi Blue Vixxen.... you are pulling my leg Bro.

You're right for Erieye. I appologize.

The PS-05/A was a collaboration with GEC Marconi.
SAAB has done a lot of work on this radar since then,
adding modes, and improving detection range.

Here is a link to their AESA fighter radar.
http://saab.com/about-saab/sites/20...presents-new-aesa-fighter-radar-at-adex-2015/

 

[X_Killer]

SAAB has been making airborne fighter radars since 1962.
First Aircraft was J-35B. At that time this group was part of Ericsson, but were aquired by SAAB.
Gripen C is using a SAAB non AESA radar.

The EriEye AESA radar is airborne since 30 years.
The GlobalEye is AESA using GaN and soon to be delivered to UAE.
They have all the competence to make a good AESA fighter radar with GaN.


Mark my words.
For IAF, THE X-Wing will be there.
X-Wing is quad engine.
For IN, TIE Fighter will be there.

I have as many sources for that, as You (none).

Dude, do you know that Saab didn't manufacture any GaN modules?
Saab will loose SE deal (which might be cancelled soon), because its basically a integrator. Most of the essential parts and avionics are not manufactured by Saab and not in Sweden too like Engine of general electric f414, selex AESA etc
Also it has very high price tag of $85 million which is very close to RAFALEs and even F-35 and FGFA.
Another reason is the delay in IOC & FOC for GRIPEN-E.
weapon package also includes many foreign missiles and ammunitions.

Foreign content on EFT is the main reason for the disqualification during the final lap if MMRCA competition.

Upper reasons are enough to skip GRIPEN from SE jet and for F-16 , IAF is very reluctant to accept it.

Hopefully, you will be able to understand the cancellation of SE JET TENDER. Another reason for Tejas testing with Indigenous content, will also play a important role.

Personally, I really like GRIPEN-E over F-16 but not above RAFALEs.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Dude, do you know that Saab didn't manufacture any GaN modules?
Saab will loose SE deal (which might be cancelled soon), because its basically a integrator. Most of the essential parts and avionics are not manufactured by Saab and not in Sweden too like Engine of general electric f414, selex AESA etc
Also it has very high price tag of $85 million which is very close to RAFALEs and even F-35 and FGFA.
Another reason is the delay in IOC & FOC for GRIPEN-E.
weapon package also includes many foreign missiles and ammunitions.

Foreign content on EFT is the main reason for the disqualification during the final lap if MMRCA competition.

Upper reasons are enough to skip GRIPEN from SE jet and for F-16 , IAF is very reluctant to accept it.

Hopefully, you will be able to understand the cancellation of SE JET TENDER. Another reason for Tejas testing with Indigenous content, will also play a important role.

Personally, I really like GRIPEN-E over F-16 but not above RAFALEs.

Dude, did You know SAAB is selling GaN equipped AESA radars for several years...
As India just found out, LM is also an integrator.
LM does not manufacture the engine, radar etc.
India wants to, but will use GE and Israeli radar for Tejas Mk 1A.
Guess field is even...

The price tag is more like $75M, and the difference in CPFH easily eats up any difference
in price vs the F-16. CPFH of Tejas is not known to me, but I expect higher.

Weapons package of Gripen is more compatible with India than that of F-16.
Meteor already integrated.
Due to the App based S/W architecture, India can integrate indigenous and Russian weapons.

I let the Indian Government publish its plan, instead of fantasizing,
based on poor understanding.

 

[X_Killer]

Dude, did You know SAAB is selling GaN equipped AESA radars for several years...

But do you know who is manufacturing those radars.
Also, ps-05a mk5 is only pulse dopler radar which is only equipped in very few GRIPEN-C & D, not all. Remaining radars do not have AESA antenna.
Raven is only GaN based radar in access to Saab, also the GaN The/R modules are imported from US.
Raven ES-05 is manufactured by Leonardo not by Saab also not in Sweden.

As India just found out, LM is also an integrator.
LM does not manufacture the engine, radar etc.

Yup , LM is an integrator of f-16 but everything is sourced from US (that is only 1 nation is engaged).
For radars, please enhance your knowledge.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/what-we-do/aerospace-defense/radar-sensors.html

India wants to, but will use GE and Israeli radar for Tejas Mk 1A.
Guess field is even...

As I already mentioned, TEJAS is to be integrated with DRDO UTTAM AESA AND DARE EW SUITE. For Mk1A , will have Kaveri GTX-35VS.

The price tag is more like $75M, and the difference in CPFH easily eats up any difference
in price vs the F-16. CPFH of Tejas is not known to me, but I expect higher.

CPFH of Tejas is very economic because of light weight and efficient f404 as of now with pretty low maintenance.
GRIPEN-E= $85
F-16 block 70= nearly $80
Tejas MK1 $25.13
Mk1A :$31.64
Mk2 : $ 40 Expected

Weapons package of Gripen is more compatible with India than that of F-16.
Meteor already integrated.

None of the Saab manufactured Weapon is present in IAF inventory.
Whereas METEOR is coming with french RAFALEs.
What you guys have?

Due to the App based S/W architecture, India can integrate indigenous and Russian weapons.

RAFALE also agreed to do so.

I let the Indian Government publish its plan, instead of fantasizing,
based on poor understanding.

I already shared the understandings, as India is surrounded by two hostile nations.
And during wars, we don't want to consult individual nations for raising it's maintainence and Support including weapons.
EFT includes 5 Nations whereas RAFALEs have only one.
Hope you understand the facts.

Saab can't share ToT for american F414, Italian Raven radar, and other foreign stuff. They only can share which relates to them only.
So, we have our own Project to get the job done.