Major Changes Ahead on JF-17 Block-3

[Blue Marlin]

You post has NO relevance to my previous post!!!! I don't even know how to understand your post as it doesn't address anything from my post.

The discussion you and I were having, was WHY Pakistan should consider taking FC-20 as a JFT Block IV and using it in the PAF (my take is, it'll give a massive jump to the Pakistani aviation industry and will make them capable of producing Rafale and EFT class fighters, and will make them totally independent). Plus they can then form their own high-lo combo, FC-20 (high) and JFT(low). F-16's J-11's or whatever else they have, will only supplement it.

Your answer has nothing pertinent to the discussion on hand. Respond back with relevant details. I don't like to waste time as I am super busy.

ahhhhhrgh fine ....
lets go back to basics.....
there is a requirement for 250 jf-17's they will be in 5 blocks of 50 (not sure about the dual seat varient)
the tech for the j10 will be on the jf-17. now your arguement for buying the j10 is to have a middle weight jet and increase the avation industry there. which seem good. but you missing out that they already have a mid range fighter which has been in service since the 80's and are following suit to somthing that of the rose program where old jets are procured and upgraded, like what they did with the jordinain f16 a/b's. and also this coupled with brand new f16 from the us government.(pakistan buys f16's from the us government not lockheed, lockheed fullfill the contract).

the j11 cant be exported as per agreement with russia. when they agreed to continue to suply the al-31 as long as if they dontsell the j11 series/family as it wont compeate with the su27 family or the mi 29 family.

please if your "super busy" logoff and continue what your suppose to be doing, dont let me stop you.

best regards
bm

 

[MastanKhan]

If I was the strategist for the PAF's, I'd have acquired J-10C model with TOT (even with limited avionics TOT as it does contain higher end Chinese AESA and other electronics, that are on par (or 80% capable) or the French equipment. And make that JFT block III altogether. That one time investment takes you out of the "light weight" category. And you go directly into a Rafale / EFT league or very close to it. Not to mention higher payloads and more advanced tech. You could create a future variant of this FC-20 and turn that into a Stealthy platform. In other words, having a credible platform like that, will leave Pakistan in the current air-frame and aircraft design and development levels around the world. From this point on, you can further develop the aircraft into newer models, versions, etc.

Hi,

Thank you for these posts. The J10C should have been given a go ahead a year ago.

You posts 220---222---224 covers everything that I would want to say---.

 

[nangyale]

You post has NO relevance to my previous post!!!! I don't even know how to understand your post as it doesn't address anything from my post.

The discussion you and I were having, was WHY Pakistan should consider taking FC-20 as a JFT Block IV and using it in the PAF (my take is, it'll give a massive jump to the Pakistani aviation industry and will make them capable of producing Rafale and EFT class fighters, and will make them totally independent). Plus they can then form their own high-lo combo, FC-20 (high) and JFT(low). F-16's J-11's or whatever else they have, will only supplement it.

Your answer has nothing pertinent to the discussion on hand. Respond back with relevant details. I don't like to waste time as I am super busy.

JFT block 4, if developed should be a fifth gen platform.
In my opinion instead of going for a single engine route like the J-10b/c and F-35. Pakistan should rather go with two engines. The good thing is we already have the Chinese working on such a plane i-e J-31.
Pakistan should build it in-house and might become the JF-31. Probably with the added advantage of having same engine for both JFT block 3 and JF-31.

 

[Paksanity]

Need better engine,better design and need more hardpoint for bomber role. Is it LCA or Interceptor or both ?

It will look exactly same. There is no question of change in design or size. Weapon stations will also remain the same. Externally visible changes might include a small station for Pod and probably an IRST sensor. They may change design and capacity of external fuel tanks. Changes will mostly be under the skin. And those will be important changes. My guess is

1. Newer version of same engine RD-93MA
2. AESA / PESA radar (Chinese/ western and maybe Russian even)
3. New ECM suite
4. Enhanced integration and fusion (sensors, systems and weapons)
5. Structural upgrades (RAM coating, composites and strengthening [edit] of critical areas) leading to lighter, stealthier aircraft with enhanced load capacity
6. Re-wiring of aircraft for faster data exchange and new weapons integration
7. Possibly new mission mission computers to get everything working together

There is possibility of new weapons and multiple racks appearing. As far anything radical, sorry. That's essentially asking to design a new aircraft. But hey, that wish is just granted. We have J-10 from China in that form!

 

[Atlanticore]

If I was the strategist for the PAF's, I'd have acquired J-10C model with TOT (even with limited avionics TOT as it does contain higher end Chinese AESA and other electronics, that are on par (or 80% capable) or the French equipment. And make that JFT block III altogether. That one time investment takes you out of the "light weight" category. And you go directly into a Rafale / EFT league or very close to it. Not to mention higher payloads and more advanced tech. You could create a future variant of this FC-20 and turn that into a Stealthy platform. In other words, having a credible platform like that, will leave Pakistan in the current air-frame and aircraft design and development levels around the world. From this point on, you can further develop the aircraft into newer models, versions, etc.

Agreed.
As soon as Musharaf left the Office, huge gap was created in strategic planning field and i believe it still hasn't been filled. Its was Musharaf who was willing to Induct J-10B/C in PAF and his wisdom was to strengthen Armed force of the Land of Pure but unfortunately he had to leave earlier.
J-10's were indeed offered with TOT and MOU's were signed during Musharaf's tour to China. Not sure why Pakistan backed out from that deal, i see no reason for this other then financial issues but in case of China there weren't financial issues either. God knows best.
On topic: I guess by the induction of Block- III PAF is giving hints that Future JF-17 Blocks would no longer be called light weight Fighters. Chinese AESA will be major change in Block-III but there are some concerns that how much resistant this Chinese AESA radar can be against Jamming.

 

[MastanKhan]

Need better engine,better design and need more hardpoint for bomber role. Is it LCA or Interceptor or both ?

Hi,

For a JF17 aircraft---we already have an example---. We copied an aircraft---and that aircraft has an upgrade now----.

That aircraft was Grippen---and now it has a Grippen NG.

If you put JF17--Grippen and Grippen NG side by side---you can see that is the best available modification.

Move the wheels out a little bit---increase the length of the struts a tad bit for the aircraft to sit taller----gives you more inner fuel storage ability ---dedicated IRST and hard points----also streamline the fuel tanks like those of the Grippen NG---maybe a little larger wing---.

There is absolutely no reason to RE-INVENT the wheel on this aicraft. These are the best modifications structure wise for this aircraft for the BLK 4-----.

Definitely---by that time---an upgraded engine would also fit in.

 

[Zarvan]

Hi,

For a JF17 aircraft---we already have an example---. We copied an aircraft---and that aircraft has an upgrade now----.

That aircraft was Grippen---and now it has a Grippen NG.

If you put JF17--Grippen and Grippen NG side by side---you can see that is the best available modification.

Move the wheels out a little bit---increase the length of the struts a tad bit for the aircraft to sit taller----gives you more inner fuel storage ability ---dedicated IRST and hard points----also streamline the fuel tanks like those of the Grippen NG---maybe a little larger wing---.

There is absolutely no reason to RE-INVENT the wheel on this aicraft. These are the best modifications structure wise for this aircraft for the BLK 4-----.

Definitely---by that time---an upgraded engine would also fit in.

Sir F-16 Blocked by US Congress so should we reconsider J-10 B or C ?

 

[Viper0011.]

Agreed.
As soon as Musharaf left the Office, huge gap was created in strategic planning field and i believe it still hasn't been filled. Its was Musharaf who was willing to Induct J-10B/C in PAF and his wisdom was to strengthen Armed force of the Land of Pure but unfortunately he had to leave earlier.
J-10's were indeed offered with TOT and MOU's were signed during Musharaf's tour to China. Not sure why Pakistan backed out from that deal, i see no reason for this other then financial issues but in case of China there weren't financial issues either. God knows best.

On topic: I guess by the induction of Block- III PAF is giving hints that Future JF-17 Blocks would no longer be called light weight Fighters. Chinese AESA will be major change in Block-III but there are some concerns that how much resistant this Chinese AESA radar can be against Jamming.

Yes, the JFT has to mature up to a medium weight fighter. But the FC-20 as block IV, would've move the entire JFT program and the country of Pakistan at a level of producing Rafale / EFT like planes. That's some crazy capability.

Just so you know, I even know what Mushy drinks and what he calls it. Mushy had plans, but there wasn't any MOU signed for the TOT of the FC-20. In fact, the FC-20 C we are discussing here, didn't exist, nor did the idea of having a Chinese based AESA exist back then. The MOU was for VERY expensive J-10A (18-36 planes) and even in the initial stage, the overhaul facility wasn't even included.

The only scenario in which the PAF would get J-10B/C is if the F-16 route is firmly closed, meaning, no new planes and no cache of spare parts. In this case, the PAF might pick up 36-40 J-10s as a means to fill in the medium weight fighter gap..

You have a very "operational" mentality (no offense intended). Strategic thinking requires critical thinking. Why does it have to be one or the other (common issue in Pakistan, you see this same mentality on political threads too all the time).

In other words, WHY does the door of F-16's should be all closed before you (or PAF's strategic planners) start having a holly shiit moment? That's what operational thinking is, last minute, always panic, always blaming on other things like the Civilians, or the unavailability of the Money, or "the dog ate my homework" crap.

Any military strategic planner, even for a small country like Pakistan, should be thinking 20 years from today and what the needs might look like, where would India be (by looking at their current air-force acquisitions and guessing that they'll ONLY grow). That's strategic.

I fight with the same operational mentality on political forums on here, why does it has to be the "military" taking over and showing the "only loyalty" to Pakistan? Why can't a system be formed so everyone does their thing, irrespective of being from the Civilians or the Military. Why not look at the 20 year picture of Pakistan and hash out her defense, economy, political stability and all needs????And that includes the Civilians and the Military and its the strategic way of overcoming future challenges by putting a system and mutual agreements in place between parties.

Once you start to do that, you become "party free" or "organization / loyalty free". You see the bigger picture and say, crap!!!, I'll need all parties involved. That's strategic.

Apply that to the PAF now with respect to the FC-20. Why ONLY do FC-20 when F-16's are stopped from the US altogether? If I was running the PAF, I'd LOVE to keep both, the FC-20 as high and affordable platform, complemented by higher end F-16's. You'll have the best of both worlds.

Top line American equipment and high end internally made FC-20's. For second tier, JFT block II and III's would solve all of the PAF's issues forever. And some of these internal platforms can produce specialized and newer models Stealth optimized.

So theoretically, with the PAF being a defensive force, having the ability to make Rafale / EFT level aircraft in the shape of FC-20-C, will never need anything else. And keeping a few squadrons of upgraded F-16's will ALWAYS show you where the modern Western tech is at. So you can build more internally, per experience with the F-16's (same took place with the JFT).

Remember, the Western tech modernization comes from the US. So why can't you keep both programs and parties involved like right now (both US and China provide defensive equipment to Pakistan).

Strategic thinking means, how do you use all assets (people, processes, money and technology) in the best way possible to gain a strategic advantage. The same rule applies to Pakistan's internal political situation, and on the acquisition of F-16's and FC-20!! Strategic thinking guys. Operational thinking never succeeds as you are always tied up in small, petty, crappy and little events and details, and can't do anything big in life.

 

[MastanKhan]

Yes, the JFT has to mature up to a medium weight fighter. But the FC-20 as block IV, would've move the entire JFT program and the country of Pakistan at a level of producing Rafale / EFT like planes. That's some crazy capability.

Just so you know, I even know what Mushy drinks and what he calls it. Mushy had plans, but there wasn't any MOU signed for the TOT of the FC-20. In fact, the FC-20 C we are discussing here, didn't exist, nor did the idea of having a Chinese based AESA exist back then. The MOU was for VERY expensive J-10A (18-36 planes) and even in the initial stage, the overhaul facility wasn't even included.



You have a very "operational" mentality (no offense intended). Strategic thinking requires critical thinking. Why does it have to be one or the other (common issue in Pakistan, you see this same mentality on the political threads too all the time).

In other words, WHY does the door of F-16's should be all closed before you (or PAF's strategic planners) start having a holly shiit moment? That's what operational thinking is, last minute, always panic, always blaming on other things like the Civilians, or the unavailability of the money, or "the dog ate my homework" crap.

Any military strategic planner, even for a small country like Pakistan, should be thinking 20 years from today and what the needs might look like, where would India be (by looking at their current air-force acquisitions and guess they'll ONLY grow). That's strategic. Same mentality I fight with on political forums, why does it has to be the "military" taking over and showing the loyalty? Why can't a system be formed so everyone does their thing, irrespective of being from the Civilians or the Military. Why not look at the 20 year picture of Pakistan and hash out her defense, economy, political stability and all needs????

Once you start to do that, you become "party free" or "organization free". You see the bigger picture and go, I'll need all parties involved. That's strategic. Apply that to the PAF now with respect to the FC-20. Why ONLY do FC-20 when F-16's are stopped from the US? If I was running the PAF, I'd LOVE to keep both, the FC-20 as high and affordable, complemented by higher end F-16's. You have the best of the both worlds. Top line American equipment and high end internally made FC-20's. For second tier, JFT block II and III's. And some of these will become specialized and newer and fewer models will emerge Stealth optimized. So theoretically, with the PAF being a defensive force, having the ability to make Rafale / EFT level aircraft in the shape of FC-20, will never need anything else. And keeping a few squadrons of upgraded F-16's will ALWAYS show you where the modern Western tech is at. So you can build more internally, per experience with the F-16's.

Remember, the Western tech modernization comes from the US. So why can't you keep both programs and parties involved like right now (both US and China provide defensive equipment to Pakistan). Strategic thinking means, how do you use all assets (people, processes, money and technology) in the best way possible to gain a strategic advantage. Same rule applies to Pakistan's internal political situation, and on the acquisition of F-16's and FC-20!! Strategic thinking guys. Operational thinking never succeeds as you are always tied up in small, and little events and details, and can't do anything big in life.

Viper,

You know it---it is very difficult for the pakistanis to understand this concept----. They always are a day late and a dollar short.

And it is always a 'holly sh-it' moment---and then they blame everybody else---.

The moment the J10 C came up on the horizon---there should have been an automatic tilt towards this aircraft.

It has proven time and again that pakistan air force's Air Chief are not well informed about the issues of weapons procurement---.

Not going too far back----even recently---the JF 17 electronics package deal from France----it was becoming very obvious that the deal may not go thru---but the air chief was confident that it would---.

And same thing with this air chief as well---. There was no reason to have asked for more F16----they should have simply gone and asked the chinese for the J10 C and made a deal---and then let the americans come back and tell them if they want to sell the F16's---.

If the americans wanted to---they would say---' Hey---where u goin baby '----otherwise they would keep to themselves and the pak air force won't feel let down.

Viper---these fckrs have no built in deceit---no built in larceny---don't understand how to play one country against the other---.

 

[Viper0011.]

If the americans wanted to---they would say---' Hey---where u goin baby '----otherwise they would keep to themselves and the pak air force won't feel let down.

Viper---these fckrs have no built in deceit---no built in larceny---don't understand how to play one country against the other---.

I might get banned again for saying the truth. But I keep saying it, not to offend anyone, but to educate people so they understand the mistakes of the past and avoid them and grow Pakistan in the future!!

The problem is not that these people don't know how to play two countries against each other (there is no need to actually). The MAIN problem is, that Pakistanis can't play ONE country within their OWN country. So how do you play two people against each other

The problem lies in the history........always been a ONE man show, always been a guy in uniform looking all tough. So....you've suppressed the "political savvy" due to the military rule.

Take a look at it now, whether you like or not, the current government of Pakistan has made relations from US to Europe to Russia to Sri Lanka, China and India. Did this ever happen in the history? NO!! So now, Pakistan is buying F-16's from the US, is buying Jets from China, is selling jets to Sri Lanka, is buying combat helicopters from the Russians, and you have many defense projects with Turkey...........guess what?

The civilian leaders who have the political and business savvy way to handling business (the car salesmen you call them), are ALREADY doing that. So right now, the MAIN issue is, how do the Pakistanis learn to respect the system and plan ONE country. Once that starts to happen, Pakistan has the potential to be buying stuff from any country she wants to. Just like India .

I agree with your comment about FC-20's purchase. It needed to be inked way the hell back when. But its not too late now either

 

[MastanKhan]

I might get banned against for saying the truth. But I keep saying it, not to offend anyone, but to educate people so they understand the mistakes of the past and avoid them and grow Pakistan.

The problem is not that these people don't know how to play two countries against each other (there is no need to actually). The MAIN problem is, that Pakistanis can't play ONE country within THEIR country. So how do you play two people against each other

The problem lies in the history........always been a ONE man show, always been a guy in uniform looking all tough. So....you've suppressed the "political savvy" due to the military rule.

Take a look at it now, whether you like or not, the current government of Pakistan has made relations from US to Europe to Russia to Sri Lanka, China and India. Did this ever happen in the history? NO!! So now, Pakistan is buying F-16's from the US, is buying Jets from China, is selling jets to Sri Lanka, is buying combat helicopters from the Russians, and you have many defense projects with Turkey...........guess what?

The civilian leaders who have the political and business savvy way to handling business (the car salesmen you call them), are ALREADY doing that. So right now, the MAIN issue is, how do the Pakistanis learn to respect the system and plan ONE country. Once that starts to happen, Pakistan has the potential to be buying stuff from any country she wants to. Just like India .

I agree with your comment about FC-20's purchase. It needed to be inked way the hell back when. But its not too late now either

Viper,

You know that is where you and I differ---. Here is how I look at it---. The civilians have not raised their GAME----it is the same ole same ole----.

Last year---at this time---the question was answered this way--- " the air force is very focused on the BLK 3---we don't want to do anything else---we are waiting to see what the neighbor is going to buy---".

What I am getting to is that PAF tries its best to hurt itself by shooting itself in the foot.

As for the civilians----they are so stupid---they are totally clueless---and plz don't blame it on military govt's for that---the kissarse's and suckup's can only bring so much to the table.

 

[Quwa]

You have a very "operational" mentality (no offense intended). Strategic thinking requires critical thinking. Why does it have to be one or the other (common issue in Pakistan, you see this same mentality on political threads too all the time).

In other words, WHY does the door of F-16's should be all closed before you (or PAF's strategic planners) start having a holly shiit moment? That's what operational thinking is, last minute, always panic, always blaming on other things like the Civilians, or the unavailability of the Money, or "the dog ate my homework" crap.

Any military strategic planner, even for a small country like Pakistan, should be thinking 20 years from today and what the needs might look like, where would India be (by looking at their current air-force acquisitions and guessing that they'll ONLY grow). That's strategic.

It's quite simple. When you're actually put into the shoes of PAF Command, you will notice that a lot of that idealism and flexibility is taken away from you due the reality of the country you are serving. Pakistan isn't a land with an immense amount of available funds; in fact, a significant proportion of national funds go into servicing debt and financing a COIN campaign. So the PAF as an institution isn't flush with resources that it can use to engage in many big risks, it is forced by reality to make a number of very conservative and - unfortunately - unpopular decisions.

The F-16 is a mature platform that the PAF knows inside and out, and it has the infrastructure to scale for additional birds. It even knows how to fly the F-16 in the midst of U.S sanctions, so even the worst-case scenarios are known waters to the PAF.

Going towards the J-10B/C may seem like the commonsense solution in terms of dealing with sanctions, that much is true, no doubt. However, it is still a platform going through development and a maturation process, and that is beholden to a level of risk that is relatively new to the PAF. Not only that, but with programs such as JF-17 and ZDK03, the PAF has limited bandwidth to take on more of such risks, especially a fighter that it wants with licensed manufacturing and custom development. It sounds nice, "let's think 20 years from now..." but the result could very well end up as a bust, so imagine the burden the PAF Command has when it could've put that money into good fighters it knows how to deal with and is able to mesh within its existing fleet.

 

[Zarvan]

Viper,

You know it---it is very difficult for the pakistanis to understand this concept----. They always are a day late and a dollar short.

And it is always a 'holly sh-it' moment---and then they blame everybody else---.

The moment the J10 C came up on the horizon---there should have been an automatic tilt towards this aircraft.

It has proven time and again that pakistan air force's Air Chief are not well informed about the issues of weapons procurement---.

Not going too far back----even recently---the JF 17 electronics package deal from France----it was becoming very obvious that the deal may not go thru---but the air chief was confident that it would---.

And same thing with this air chief as well---. There was no reason to have asked for more F16----they should have simply gone and asked the chinese for the J10 C and made a deal---and then let the americans come back and tell them if they want to sell the F16's---.

If the americans wanted to---they would say---' Hey---where u goin baby '----otherwise they would keep to themselves and the pak air force won't feel let down.

Viper---these fckrs have no built in deceit---no built in larceny---don't understand how to play one country against the other---.

I think we need @jaibi here he could send messages to senior leadership that it's time to say bye bye to USA when it comes to weapon deals and go for J-10 C or ask Russia to sell us Fighter Jets. Also increase corporation with both Turkey and China for Navy and Army.

 

[princefaisal]

Agreed.
As soon as Musharaf left the Office, huge gap was created in strategic planning field and i believe it still hasn't been filled. Its was Musharaf who was willing to Induct J-10B/C in PAF and his wisdom was to strengthen Armed force of the Land of Pure but unfortunately he had to leave earlier.
J-10's were indeed offered with TOT and MOU's were signed during Musharaf's tour to China. Not sure why Pakistan backed out from that deal, i see no reason for this other then financial issues but in case of China there weren't financial issues either. God knows best.
On topic: I guess by the induction of Block- III PAF is giving hints that Future JF-17 Blocks would no longer be called light weight Fighters. Chinese AESA will be major change in Block-III but there are some concerns that how much resistant this Chinese AESA radar can be against Jamming.

I think that the main hurdle in acquiring J-10 is its engine, which needs to mature (Enhanced Engine life & MTBO).

Sir F-16 Blocked by US Congress so should we reconsider J-10 B or C ?

US CONGRESS BLOCKS POSSIBLE F 16 SALE TO PAKISTAN
by defenceupdate · January 11, 2016

As expected the US Congress blocked the Pakistani proposal of possible sale of modern F 16 Blk 52 Fighter jets, associated equipment’s and missile systems. The Democratic American government agreed the Pakistani proposal of foreign military sales program to sell the F 16 C/D to Pakistan, However the congress who dominated by Republicans blocked the government proposal.

There is one more way to deliver those fighter jets to Pakistan, that’s The democratic president use his VETO power to bypass the Congress decision. Obama used his VETO power many times which makes many questions about Obama’s over action bypassing the Congress decisions. The Republicans are mostly pro Indian and continuously slammed US friendly approach towards Pakistan.

However this time as a surprise, A Democratic senator, who pushed the stall button when the congress discussed about the possible sale of F 16 to Pakistan. The deal further blocked by majority of Republican senators. There were very few or zero American senators defended the Proposed deal. The Pathankot attack also the major reason behind the block, since the US intelligence already alerted the Indians about possible terror attack close to India Pakistan border.

 

[Zarvan]

I think that the main hurdle in acquiring J-10 is its engine, which needs to mature (Enhanced Engine life & MTBO).


US CONGRESS BLOCKS POSSIBLE F 16 SALE TO PAKISTAN
by defenceupdate · January 11, 2016

As expected the US Congress blocked the Pakistani proposal of possible sale of modern F 16 Blk 52 Fighter jets, associated equipment’s and missile systems. The Democratic American government agreed the Pakistani proposal of foreign military sales program to sell the F 16 C/D to Pakistan, However the congress who dominated by Republicans blocked the government proposal.

There is one more way to deliver those fighter jets to Pakistan, that’s The democratic president use his VETO power to bypass the Congress decision. Obama used his VETO power many times which makes many questions about Obama’s over action bypassing the Congress decisions. The Republicans are mostly pro Indian and continuously slammed US friendly approach towards Pakistan.

However this time as a surprise, A Democratic senator, who pushed the stall button when the congress discussed about the possible sale of F 16 to Pakistan. The deal further blocked by majority of Republican senators. There were very few or zero American senators defended the Proposed deal. The Pathankot attack also the major reason behind the block, since the US intelligence already alerted the Indians about possible terror attack close to India Pakistan border.

I think J-10 B and J-10 C are using new powerful engine Am I right guys ? @Beast @Deino